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Comment by paxys | Hacker News Reader

I don't know about others, but what would have been a day one purchase for me is now going to be put off because of this one limitation. Flying into some random country, buying a prepaid SIM card at the airport or some street corner and popping it into my phone is something I do multiple times a year, but this phone seems to only have been designed with the major US carriers in mind (and not even most MVNOs). eSIM is not at all prevalent in most of the world.

In fact Apple knows this themselves, which is why international iPhone 14 models are going to keep the SIM tray. Removing it from US models is such a bizarre decision to me. Does the target iPhone user in the US just not travel?

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Or maybe you land in a new country, the iPhone is like "hey I see you're in a new country, want a data package?" and you could just opt-in to something straight from your phone and be connected before you even get off the plane without needing to buy a disposable SIM card.

With that being said, I think it would be better if carriers were just global tbh. But that's a dream.

> Or maybe you land in a new country, the iPhone is like "hey I see you're in a new country, want a data package?"

And do you think you will always get the best prices/services compared to SIM cards sold to locals?

I don't think the incentives go that way. It's more like step 1) limit the visibility of the alternatives in the name of convenience/simplicity step 2) "these are not the alternatives you are looking for"

For the phone company, their best bet is that they'll nickel and dime you through roaming, if for some reason you need this exact phone number to receive calls.

If you just need to use your skype/google voice number , they know you don't need roaming, as a local company will be less expansive, but they can still try to push you towards their "friendly favored partner" (which bad prices due to generous revenue sharing agreement)

If your phone is unlocked and is not ESIM only, there's nothing they can do to let local competition deliver you the cheapest service

This already exists based on carrier and plan.

However my verizon "Travel Pass" has never ever worked in any country I've tried it in. Even when I ended up getting billed for.the $10/day to use it I still never had service.

On the other hand a 70gb Vodafone SIM card was 10 euro and all I had to do was stick it in and wait 30 seconds.

It's good to have options, esp tried and true ones

This can be down to Settings. I traveled to Thailand and had similar issues with AT&Ts service. IIRC there may be 2 or even 3 separate 'roaming' type settings that need to be enabled for everything to work.

Verizon's travel pass works pretty well in Mexico, so there's that at least

That model doesn't work because it relies on you having data available to set up that interaction with the local carrier.

With a physical SIM you can insert it into your device, even if there's no connectivity available to you.

That's not to mention how likely carriers are to make it difficult to swap eSIMs around.

> I think it would be better if carriers were just global tbh.

T-Mobile is pretty close. Most monthly plans get unlimited data and text in 200+(?) countries. Pay $10 extra for better data speeds. Haven't had to buy an airport SIM since I was already covered for the things I use - rideshare apps, google maps, hotel/airline apps, messaging apps and regular sms. Would be nice to get even higher data speeds in places that have it, but it's still very much usable and useful.

If I’m traveling to another country, I might want a local number so that people in that country can call me from without incurring a long distance call charge.

Also, a lot of 2 factor verification systems have trouble messaging international numbers. A lot of the airport Wi-Fi’s I try to log into, for example, almost never succeed in sending me a pin on my international number.

Adding a roaming data plan to my existing number only solves a small number of the problems international travelers face. And even those problems are almost always resolved at a higher cost than getting a local SIM.

Yea I have T-Mobile as well and like it quite a bit. Even if very few customers took advantage of this offering it gives you a sense of safety that taps into the same nerve center that something like the Amex Platinum and lounge access does.

> Or maybe you land in a new country, the iPhone is like "hey I see you're in a new country, want a data package?"

Does having a SIM tray stop you from replying to that prompt?

> and you could just opt-in to something straight from your phone and be connected before you even get off the plane without needing to buy a disposable SIM card.

Does having a SIM tray remove your ability to choose?

Meanwhile, people use multiple SIMs even without leaving their home town as some mobile internet providers offer better services than bundled voice+internet services, having to use multiple cellphone numbers is a reality, and actually subscribing to separate services in multiple countries is a thing as well.

For instance, right now I have two SIM cards from two separate operators from two separate countries in one of my phones, and I would have a third if that was an option. Why is this suddenly a bad thing?

One sees this logical fallacy so often with Apple and its fans. It’s almost certainly encouraged by Apple as well.

Let’s say there’s a product that has 2 similar features A & B.

For its next version of the product Apple removes feature B.

Then folks complain about how there are things they cannot do because feature B is missing.

The Apple fans respond by extolling the benefits of feature A.

The problem is that I already had all those benefits of feature A when Apple shipped the product with both A and B. The Apple fans convert the actual argument, which is (A AND B) vs (Only A) into a strawman argument, which is (Only B) vs (Only A).

I think if folks really want the feature of a physical SIM card they have other phone options out there. Maybe it's something available from Samsung or Google? Personally I think going to another country and buying a disposable SIM card and hoping I don't lose my other one and all of these other things is much more of a hassle than something like landing, turning off airplane mode, and then just selecting a plan that works for me all set up with Apple Pay that I could have done before I even get off the plane.

Then again, just using a carrier that has global coverage would be even better.

Maybe Apple could get a 30% cut of plans sold that way. Since they made the phone it's only fair.

I think that makes sense b/c they’re basically “doing the sale” similar to how a retailer might advertise a product that they up sell from a wholesale price.

Is this sarcasm, or do you really think Apple should get 30% of the revenue from all phone plans?

Idk about 30%, but yea whatever they agree to with carriers for integrating this feature into the iPhone seems to make sense to me.

I mean are you really going to be upset that one multi-billion dollar corporation is getting a share of the revenue of other multi-billion dollar corporations? Should we be upset that Amazon sells Apple products on Amazon.com?

Or do you think Apple and others should just not create features like this or make it easier for you to switch carriers in different countries when the carriers themselves are making billions ripping you off with overpriced throw-away SIM cards?

Ultimately if they're developing features like this, I don't care if they do or don't get a cut. My life gets a lot better. If (to use the US as an example) Verizon makes a little less money because they're paying Apple. Whatever. Could not care less.

Apple will probably eventually launch their own service anyway unless anti-trust breaks them up. iPhone is so huge that they can truly own the full stack if they so desire.

My post was sarcasm.

Carriers (at least of the non-MVNO kind) are far too burdened by the transnational legal frameworks of radio regulation to ever really be global. And various legal regulations on companies around the world don’t make it easier for telecommunications providers to form certain kinds of business arrangements.

The best we will ever get is if some MVNO gets a good enough deal on their global transit that they can provide some kind of global roaming service like that by way of agreements with physical carriers in many countries.

I totally see Apple doing that with some type of arrangement between them and the Telco providers.

This prevents my day 1 purchase as well. My US carrier (Verizon Prepaid) doesn't support eSIM yet, and I don't want a postpaid plan. I see absolutely no reason removing the SIM slot at this time is in customers' interests.

Getting a model from Canada is an option, but those don't support mmWave 5G, and I'm often in areas where I'd actually use it.

> I see absolutely no reason removing the SIM slot at this time is in customers' interests.

They want the industry to move on from physical sim to esim, so they are essentially forcing it to.

I imagine the odds of Verizon Prepaid getting esim support in the near future have greatly increased since this announcement.

I used to do that, now I just use https://www.airalo.com/. Cheap and easy.

+1 airalo; esimdb.com is a great comparison engine for eSim vendors

be weary of the cheaper eSim providers, as they may not be using the best networks in a given country. Many do not disclose country specific network carriers, and others are hidden deep in documentation. Airalo is among the most transparent and has different vendors for their Global, EU, and country specific plans, with country specific packages usually having the best national carrier support.

I've spent a bit of time researching this in this past as Airalo wasn't usually the cheapest.

https://prepaid-data-sim-card.fandom.com/wiki/ is the best resource I have discovered to compare country specific network coverage

or Dent Wireless. I buy their 1GB for $9/yr as an emergency backup for when my main carrier has issues.

https://www.dentwireless.com

I bought 40GB of data for $8.50. Airalo 10GB is $22 for the country I visited.

That doesn't invalidate the point that services exist that allow you to buy e-sims all over the world if you're travelling. And if you're travelling a lot the price difference is miniscule compared to the cost of travel and accomodation.

I was referring to cheap part. It is 5 times more expensive than local sim, it is data only, doesn't have phone number I needed for local services. I am not sure hotspot is not blocked or not. The website doesn't say.

Hotspot isn't blocked. I'm using it right now. The reason it probably doesn't offer phone services is due to KYC stuff. Most governments love ID cards, address proofs and what not before they let you make phone calls. The data only esim bypasses all that. In fact, even the data is not locally terminated although you are using the local network. It terminates in their network (hosted by OVH in the EU at the moment). So it also effectively acts as a vpn. This is also great because most governments around the world have arbitrary censorship. Overall, I would say that it's a good product although the prices can be lower.

> Does the target iPhone user in the US just not travel?

AT&T charges me $10/day up to $100/month for unlimited calls, texting, and data while overseas, virtually anywhere in the world. That's low enough I can't be bothered to go to the trouble of SIM purchase, swapping, and giving everyone my temporary number on arrival.

Last time I was in India I paid $3.75 for an unlimited everything 4G plan for a month. I guess the definition of "low enough" can vary.

The average cost of a cell phone plan in the US is over $100/month, so yes.

Says who? Unlimited plans from all major carriers top off at $70-80/mo. If you have multiple lines the per line cost is cheaper still (like $50/mo). Plans with data caps, discount carriers and MVNOs all go as low as $30/mo.

If you are paying $100+ for a cell phone plan in the US today you are being taken for a ride.

> Unlimited plans from all major carriers top off at $70-80/mo.

Until you add the $20-30 in taxes and fees they don’t show on their pricing page.

“Regulatory Charge”, “Admin & Telco Recovery Charge”, “Gross Receipts Surchg”, and “Fed Universal Service Charge”, and that doesn’t even include the state/local ones; they’re just Verizon’s set.

https://www.verizon.com/support/surcharges/

I pay $99.98/mo for 3 lines with unlimited talk and data, including 5G data and a smartwatch with cellular access - that includes taxes and fees, on the Verizon network. That's $29.99/line + $10 for the smart watch. No way in hell I would pay $100/line.

Ah, we've got a misunderstanding; you're right at the average. You've got a cell phone plan, with multiple lines, that's $100/month. Not $100/line, $100/plan.

Looks like it's up since my number, too.

https://www.cnbc.com/select/how-to-cut-your-cell-phone-bill-...

> In fact, JD Power told CNBC that the average cell phone bill is now $144.

Which MVNO? That's a good value!

Spectrum Mobile, you have to also be a spectrum internet customer. Before them I was on Visible (also Verizon), which was actually cheaper due to party pay but it was so heavily de-prioritized as to be unusable pretty frequently.

We’re paying $80/month for 4 devices, unlimited everything; 5G. Considering dropping two, which will lower it to $50.

(T Mobile Metro)

That's why there's lots of Android phones with double sim slots. I'm just adding a new one on arrival rather than swapping. And no need to give anyone a temporary number.

For lots of people $100 is a significant amount compared to a $5 prepaid sim they can get locally.

Now add up the cost of every one who’s trying to call you in the country you’re traveling to having to make an international call every time they call you.

And heaven forbid if they don’t have an iPhone. In some countries they’ll be charged large sums of money to text you as well.

I am not sure how true this is anymore, but it was in the US until at least a few years ago (and may still be on many carriers/plans) in many countries they would be charged for receiving texts from you as well.

Yes.

Iphones are Nikes and the major consumers are poor people.

US models support 5G mmWave, non-US models do not. So, the US models already have slightly higher cost.

The SIM tray adds manufacturing cost and complexity. It's also a structural weak point and makes waterproofing harder - which adds to warranty/applecare+ costs.

Therefore it's an easy cost-cutting move to get rid of the SIM tray on US models to bring the costs back in line.

I will say this: they should have kept the tray on the Pro Max models, which is what international travelers use.

> The SIM tray adds manufacturing cost and complexity. It's also a structural weak point and makes waterproofing harder - which adds to warranty/applecare+ costs.

Please explain then why I have been seeing iPhone 13 ads that showcase how it handles all sorts of drops and spills and sprinkles and kitchen hazards while sporting the SIM tray.

Unbelievable.

I love how Apple basically eliminated competition from competitors selling $20 headphones (oh no…you have to deal with a couple of wires…something Apple itself used as the signature motif in its ad campaigns for the iPods for a decade), so they could sell you the same thing for about 10 times the price (sure it has a slight convenience benefit but not everyone cares for it that much) and Apple’s fans will tie themselves into knots to explain how this is a good thing, as opposed to having both, so those who want to spend 10x for the convenience of no wires can do so and those who are happy buying cheap $10 earbuds from their local convenience store’s checkout counter display can also do so.

I didn't say it made waterproofing or structural integrity impossible.

It just makes it more difficult and therefore more expensive to manufacture.

Most people do not care about the SIM tray. There are apps that can get you e-sims for data in every country in the world.

Physical SIM cards are largely a liability. They need to be replaced as the network changes (as T-mobile had to for standalone 5G) and they make phone theft even more of a headache because phone thieves can take your SIM card and use it for SMS-based OTP and password resets.

I would rather have mmWave.

Also possibly Apple decided to implement mmwave antenna for US model on where SIM tray locates for the rest of the world model.

Fortunately water in non-compressible and has surface tension, the only real issue seems to be water vapor.

I don't understand how modern hard drives are not helium proof. Apparently, everything is a permeable solid.

There’s a lot of solutions to the problem you’ve mentioned.

1. There are companies specifically doing esims for data effectively everywhere in the world.

2. Google Fi exists

3. Just get an international plan? It’s honestly so much easier than juggling sims.

> Just get an international plan? It’s honestly so much easier than juggling sims.

That's a very country-specific view. It does not hold for many people.

This is US only, so.

Download Airalo. Problem Solved.

Don't buy Apple. Problem solved easier.

How? SIM cards are going away.

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