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Comment by withoutsnow | Hacker News Reader

Well, it only proves Scratch is not good for kids learning math, and the paper has some weak points as pointed out in other posts.

Actually, my first reaction when I heard of Scratch was -- why are these poor kids forced to learn something they will never use in the future of their lives?

The paper got one thing right -- it doesn't make any sense to design visual language deliberately for kids education. It's like saying -- kid, you are so naive so you have to do visual programming, even though it is slow and inefficient. If you are the kid, will you feel good?

If I have to choose a programming language for kids, I will choose LOGO.

Code for visual! Not visual for code!

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My 9 year old started programming lua in Roblox. He doesn't really know whats going on, he is just following the tutorials, transcribing what he sees on screen. When he makes a mistake he has a hard time reading through the code to see what went wrong.

A few weeks ago he rediscovered Scratch. It's a completely different experience. He started out following tutorials like he was with Roblox, but quickly made the metal leap to altering and enhancing the tutorials. Adding sound effects, changing values. Restructuring and reconstructing for loops to do what he wants.

Now he is breaking problems down and solving them one at a time. Setting a goal and working out how to achieve it. I think that's a far more valuable skill at this stage.

This is his latest creation. He would love to see that view count go up.

https://scratch.mit.edu/projects/728260409

Hah, this was great!

This is actually my first time looking into the platform. It's interesting to have the ability to peek into the "code". Though I initially felt I agreed with an earlier comment in the chain, "just start with something real", I see my own path with Lego's NZXT visual programming language in Scratch. The visual element seemed to help me build a mental model much better than lines of code, at the start.

I left it up on 18 for others to try and break. Thanks for sharing.

I got into programming by first using PowerPoint for developing animations and then moving into Macromedia Flash (Actionscript).

Why? PowerPoint is Turing complete.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uNjxe8ShM-8

Haha, that was hilarious, thank you!

> why are these poor kids forced to learn something they will never use in the future of their lives?

Exactly. I withhold cycling, they'll use a car later; I withhold bow and arrow or .22, because they can just get a real rifle later; I withhold picture books, because all real books have only text; I withhold flag football, because it's real only with concussion; if my 3yr old cannot hold the axe to split wood, fuck him, certainly I won't get him anything he can handle already; a toy grocery shop? where's the fun when milk can't spill or spoil? Playset 'Doctor'? Real surgical grade anesthesia and scalpel is where it's at. Play with a plush tiger? Not on my watch he's not.

I did LOGO as a kid and scratch, although not much of either. Either way, though, you teach programmatic thinking. Not only that, but an introduction to variables, loops, if else, etc. all in an easy to parse manner (scratch blocks). I think I saw that, by numbers, scratch is now a hugely used language. Given that there's a shortage of programming teaching in schools, I think it's nice.

With scratch, kids can start programming without needing to type fast, or debug errors caused by typos.

That allows them to focus on the logic of their programs.

A 10yo might be fine starting by typing programs in from a manual (what I did) but nowadays people want to introduce programming to 6yo kids.

typing fast has nothing to do with programming

debugging errors has a lot to do with programming

typos are a kind of bug

When I was 10, I started programming in BASIC ... we're talking about simple expressions and statements.

"When I was 10, I started programming in BASIC"

Me, too! On the Acorn Electron.

My son will turn 6 soon. I think he's ready for Scratch (or at least Scratch Jr) but I'm not sure he's ready for BASIC. I guess I could him a printout of some code and see if he can type it in without errors...

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