The risk of death from covid itself varies a lot and varied a lot particularly depending on how overwhelmed hospitals were. Covid is not ebola or smallpox, the risk evaluation is much more subtle.
It's more about weighing aggregated low-probability side effects and unknown long-term health effects against overwhelming hospitals, damage caused by long Covid, and continued stress for society in general under quarantines and lockdowns.
Whether the right decisions were made will only be clear in hindsight and after a lot of study. That or we all turn into zombies.
When it became clear to me that:
(1) the virus would never be boxed in [we missed that boat] (2) the vaccines mostly just prevented serious disease, but only marginally prevented its spread [I've had 3 doses, and gotten the virus twice (3) the newest variants appeared to be less dangerous
I tended toward vaccination being personal choice (like with flu) rather than a mandate, something we'll just have to live with.
Meanwhile there are global outbreaks of polio. That's what pisses me off (having a relative who suffered the consequences of that disease long long after childhood).
I'm not giving them any compassion. State and local levels of health departments acted like dictators with lockdowns which harmed people and many school-age children. My neighbor sold their house and moved because the employer was enforcing the shot so they got fired. I literally got multiple postcards in the mail from health department telling me a shot was waiting for me.
There were not enough studies of efficacy and safety to do what they did based on hunches while not hammering a message of "get off carbs and sugar, lose weight, improve your health".
Polio cases are leading regular people to question much of the over-powered medical people. Maybe it is good people become skeptical.
It's unfortunate for individuals, but vaccines are still helping prevent spread (my unvaxxed roommate has brought covid home twice and I've not gotten sick (or even tested positive the second time when I had tests) despite taking zero precautions.
You might want to make some basic connections here, figure out what you are really for, and whether you're willing to do basic responsible intelligent things like vaccination in order to achieve them.
consider nuance, bud.
I see these arguments all over comment threads and always think something similar to what you said is the obvious response, and I never see anyone say anything about it. That was refreshing to read.
Also numbers are out there. It is laughable people comes with "alternative was dying" argument for young people.
And not just jobs. Heck, I went to a concert and had to prove vaccination status.
I think that requiring vaccination was justified at the height of the pandemic. It is unfortunate that the vaccines were not more neutralizing/preventing. I've had three doses and got the virus twice. I ended up being okay; my unvaccinated brother-in-law very much not okay. Like most people do, I have relatives who either died or were severely disabled by covid.
People were arrested by the police in NYC because they dared to walk into an Applebees and order food without showing a smartphone QR code that demonstrated they had multiple vaccinations for a disease that is readily spread by vaccinated people. It wasn’t based on science and people trying to use science as a shield for their actions should have been held accountable.
The same happens if you refuse to wear a shirt to Applebees and won't take "no" for an answer.
Sure, and sometimes that due process ends at "do it". That's been the case for vaccinations for quite a few decades, and hasn't historically been much of an issue for folks.
https://www.cnn.com/2022/02/17/politics/us-military-religiou...
> The US military has approved religious exemptions to its Covid-19 vaccine mandate for 15 service members out of approximately 16,000 requests, according to the latest data from the services.
And this is the definition of a lie of omission: the reason beleaguered ER docs might have considered this, even privately, probably had something to do with the fact that the deathly-ill unvaccinated took up all the beds, dying horribly on ventilators over a long period, cared for by bunny-suited staff who were beginning to tire. I believe the word is "triage".
There was a feeling that this was unfair to all those who got the vaccine and thereby had much better outcomes when they got the 'VID. Put more straightforwardly, there was a feeling that, if not for those who didn't get vaccinated, the healthcare system wouldn't be full of those who didn't get vaccinated.
But that's how healthcare works. How many other conditions do healthcare professionals have to treat, that are the result of people who made bad choices? Am I allowed to get salty about the number of lung cancer patients dying slowly and draining healthcare resources?
>the healthcare system wouldn't be full of those who didn't get vaccinated.
Full? What % of hospitalisations were unvaccinated and Covid-related, during a given time period?
What, you mean triage? "Bad choices"?! Just upthread you people are going on about how the vaccine has been forced on everybody! Which is it?!
>Am I allowed to get salty about the number of lung cancer patients dying slowly and draining healthcare resources?
I'm sorry, I must have missed the huge numbers of lung cancer patients clogging up the healthcare system, and the ease with which the worst consequences of lung cancer are ameliorated with a newly-developed vaccine that they refused to get. I never saw all those cancer patients before COVID started; I presume COVID drove them away from the healthcare system? Or maybe you're just making up nonsense. Hmm!
>Full? What % of hospitalisations were unvaccinated and Covid-related, during a given time period?
Why don't you go find out? I think the answer will surprise you!
The reason you guys come up with such insane apples-to-snozzberries counterfactual comparison is that there isn't really a modern comparison to the public health failure to get everyone to get the goddamn vaccine.
Obviously there isn't a "bad choice" if the "right choice" has been forced on everyone (which is nearer the truth).
>I must have missed the huge numbers of lung cancer patients clogging up the healthcare system
You should look a bit harder.
https://news.cancerresearchuk.org/2012/11/07/lung-cancer-uk-...
And that's just one of many largely self-inflicted but expensive conditions that people receive treatment for, and (at least in the UK) at huge amounts of expense to the taxpayer.
>Why don't you go find out? I think the answer will surprise you!
Just to be clear, you said that "the healthcare system [was] full of those who didn't get vaccinated".
Finding out the percentage of hospitalisations that were unvaccinated and Covid-related does require comparing a few data sources, so it's not a simple Google away. I'll focus on mechanical ventilation usage, as that was the easiest data to find, and use UK data as that's where I live.
First - the easy number to find is the percentage of Covid patients in ICU who are unvaccinated. It varied during the main pandemic months between 50% and 75%[1]. Let's call it 62%.
Next - how many patients is that? Picking the end of December, that's around 750[2].
Finally - how many mechanical ventilators are available in total? It varies, but 5000 is a good number[3].
Multiplying it all out, the percentage of ventilated beds that were occupied at the end of December 2021 by unvaccinated, Covid-positive people was 9%.
Who's surprised?
[1] https://fullfact.org/health/unvaccinated-icu-channel4-icnarc...
[2] https://www.england.nhs.uk/statistics/statistical-work-areas..., "Weekly Admissions and Beds from 1 October 2021 up to 31 March 2022 (XLSX, 2.6MB)"
[3] https://bmjopen.bmj.com/content/11/1/e042945
>get the goddamn vaccine.
Yep, heard that one before. You realise you are taking part in a discussion on research into serious side effects of the Covid vaccines?
The vaccine didn't prevent sickness nor transmission. I would not take risks of this EUA medical treatment that doesn't work.
>The vaccine didn't prevent sickness nor transmission
I said what you've quoted because it's literally true. Neither "sickness" nor "transmission" are binary. Getting vax'd doesn't prevent sickness -- but it prevents the very worst of it [0], and presumably can turn a moderate infection into a minor one. It doesn't prevent transmission, but it decreases viral load [1] and concomitantly seems to decrease infectivity.
Frankly, since it seems like we're all going to get COVID again and again anyway, I'd rather decrease its effect on my future health.
[0] https://med.stanford.edu/news/all-news/2022/03/covid-19-vacc... https://www.aha.org/news/headline/2022-07-18-study-covid-19-...
The vaccine reduced sicked and transmission. Just like seatbelts don't prevent injury and death but reduce them.
>I would not take risks of this EUA medical treatment that doesn't work
If you were paying any attention you'd realize that they have full approval since more than half a year.
https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/conditions-and-diseas...
They disproportionately drain medical resources due to life choices they made.
And, seriously, fat people? Do you really think that "a lifetime of eating choices, shaped by gut health, physical education, literal physical location, upbringing, and genetics" is equivalent to "sitting still for a vaccine, just like all the other ones you've uncontroversially received all your life"? Perhaps I've missed an easily-accessible vaccine against fat that the obese refused to get?
I don't think you do; I think you're choosing to present an untenable situation in order to score points. Just get the vaccine.
These days that means getting boosters. We are not at the point we were last year in terms of risk vs benefit, particularly for young healthy people.
Histrionics from you aside, I’m entirely serious:
Do you support the same for fat people? …and if not, why not?
- - - - -
You’re also ignoring that the vaccine is worse than the disease for the young and men under 40.
I think that’s because you’re not taking a principled position — you’re hysterical and seizing onto magic charms to make you feel better.
I already answered this. No, I do not; please see the second paragraph in the grandfather comment. Why do you think that entirely illogical comparison has any place in this discussion? Just get the fat vaccine; duh! And there certainly weren't any fat people before late 2019! Wait, none of that's so? "Histrionics" indeed.
>You’re also ignoring that the vaccine is worse than the disease for the young and men under 40
This is a very bold claim. I roll to disbelieve! My magic charms give me a +2 to the roll. And I have darkvision.
I’ve never had work, airplanes, or hospitals check for vaccines. Nor restaurants, entertainment venues, etc.
There was nothing standard about how this was deployed — and pretending otherwise is gaslighting.
Perhaps you haven’t crossed borders to places where it mattered enough for a protocol. Plenty places have required shots for entry visas and others for re-entry visas, and visas are checked by airlines before embarking then border control on disembarking. Other places ask to see more paperwork than just the visa, commonly asking for a vaccine journal or record.
For instance:
What vaccines are required for U.S. immigration?
At this time, vaccines for these diseases are currently required for U.S. immigration:
- Mumps
- Measles
- Rubella
- Polio
- Tetanus and diphtheria
- Pertussis
- Haemophilus influenzae type B (Hib)
- Hepatitis A
- Hepatitis B
- Rotavirus
- Meningococcal disease
- Varicella
- Pneumococcal disease
Vaccination requirements for international travel are the aspect of vaccination policy that concerns the movement of people across borders. Countries around the world require travellers departing to other countries, or arriving from other countries, to be vaccinated against certain infectious diseases in order to prevent epidemics. AT BORDER CHECKS, these travellers are required to show proof of vaccination against specific diseases; the most widely used vaccination record is the International Certificate of Vaccination or Prophylaxis (ICVP or Carte Jaune/Yellow Card). (emphasis supplied)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaccination_requirements_for_i...
See also:
The International Certificate of Vaccination or Prophylaxis (ICVP), also known as the Carte Jaune or Yellow Card, is an official vaccination report created by the World Health Organization (WHO). As a travel document, it is a kind of medical passport that is recognised internationally and MAY BE REQUIRED FOR ENTRY to certain countries where there are increased health risks for travellers. (emphasis supplied)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Certificate_of_V...
As noted in prior comment, while I’ve had to have this card for some nations, most countries that require immunization record do it in order to get a VISA, and most airlines consider the visa sufficient.
It may also be that your ~50 countries were not in zones that have these practices. For example, I’ve traveled extensively in these green and light green zones that do:
https://i.imgur.com/3DTF6n8.jpg
Here are countries requiring proof of yellow fever vax as of 2019 (not all at-risk countries listed require it):
https://cdn.who.int/media/docs/default-source/documents/emer...
// Parent is not “completely right”, only “anecdotally” right. Given the audience size of HN, it’s likely several readers share a birthday, and likely many readers have not experienced vax checks at borders. And yet, they exist.
I’d argue the countries on that list (mostly) aren’t places the US should emulate.
Hint: this isn't it.
Yes, of course the rollout of covid vaccines was different than YOUR EXPERIENCE of all other vaccines. Because you weren't around when the polio vaccine rolled out, or for any influenza pandemics, or the plague, or smallpox. Have you thought for 15 seconds before speaking?
Obviously, when a new disease emerges and is killing millions of people, you have to do a NEW vaccine rollout, and so obviously, this is going to look different than the normal process where children receive a long list of vaccinations that have built up over the last century or so.
You need to get your basic facts straight before accusing those who actually are thinking about the issue of "gaslighting".
Is your comparison that we should act like medieval Europe? — otherwise I don’t know why you’re discussing the plague. We live in a different society with different standards. Despite accusing me of “not thinking”, you’re making completely absurd comparisons.
And it’s precisely that kind of nonsense response accusing me of not understanding which I believe is gaslighting.
Please stop throwing the word gaslighting around. First, it has a specific meaning that isn't relevant here. Second, using that word in this context just shows ignorance on the current topic.
- you didn’t actually name any similar time
- you admit that this was unusual by a number of the places I listed
- the polices around COVID are unprecedented in history, eg refusal with mandates being a small fine rather than being exiled from society
- you resorted to personal attacks, despite you being wrong
You have no idea what you are talking about.
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/09/us/politics/vaccine-manda...
"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.” -Inigo Montoya, The Princess Bride
In other words, we disagree on the "facts". If you want to call that gaslighting, okay but then you are gaslighting me too (or trying). For the record, I don't think you are gaslighting. I do think I have offended you deeply which wasn't my intention so I apologize if I have.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Involuntary_treatment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Informal_coercion