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Comment by jmcgough | Hacker News Reader

Nobody is arguing that any one group should have blanket free speech protections. There are definitely trans people who turn to harassment and threats to try to protect their community, which isn't okay.

But at least three trans/gnc people have died through suicide, directly attributable to Kiwi Farms. Near, a brilliant and widely respected open source contributor, specified in their suicide note that it was because Kiwi Farms had made their life hell for years (https://www.ign.com/articles/near-bsnes-remembrance). Just because there are some bad apples in the trans community doesn't make this okay, and they don't get carte blanche to make threats online - they get banned from social media like most other people. There is no trans equivalent of kiwi farms where they cheer driving people to suicide.

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> There is no trans equivalent of kiwi farms where they cheer driving people to suicide.

Huh? Of course there is. It's called Twitter. I've seen posts from all kinds of people calling for the deaths of all men, for example. Literally: "kill all men", verbatim. I've seen them get called out on it, only to laugh in the face of the "reddit virgins" who had the audacity to talk back to them. It's a mistake to think they are not hateful.

How many people commit suicide because of Twitter, Facebook, Instagram? I have absolutely no doubt it's a far greater number than some trolling website in the darker corners of the internet. Why isn't cloudflare condemning them?

No - with Twitter there's some accountability; they respond to police requests and frequently ban abusive users. There was nothing people could do about the vile harassment campaigns on KF (a site that grew organically from harassing and stalking an autistic sonic fan) until CloudFlare had their hand forced.

There isn't much people can do when some Twitter mob starts harassing them either. They openly coordinate capaigns to ruin people's lives, dump personal information and pictures, call companies to demand that people be fired, apply pressure on sponsors and advertisers. Coordinated efforts to hurt some enemy as much as possible without actually resorting to physical violence.

If you have examples of such people getting banned or arrested, feel free to post them. I've seen numerous examples to the contrary over the years to the point it turned into a neat little collection.

No one has ever ever felt threatened by a tweet calling for the death of all men, come on.

And that somehow excuses blatant hate speech? Is it okay to hate men and openly call for their deaths because they don't "feel threatened"? Is hate speech okay or is it not?

I don't feel threatened by bullshit bomb threats either but apparently it's enough for cloudflare to deplatform some site. So why do they say nothing in other cases?

Ok, so Cloudflare should provide services forever to a platform that people use to insult trans activist and publish their addresses because you read “kill all men” in a stupid tweet…

Hell yes. If they're gonna condemn sites to oblivion for hate speech, I demand they be consistent about it. They need to stop neglecting their duty as arbiters of right and wrong. There's so much wrong on the internet. Better get to work.

It is very worrying thinking about the kind of world my son would grow up in if we allow that sort of rhetoric to escalate under the cover of harmless banter and "you're not really threatened by that, come on, suck it up, you whiner".

The same world where a similar, much more benign comment, aimed at women would very likely get you fired, ruined and turned into a social pariah that isn't allowed to be touched by a ten-foot pole. And if a company dared employ you, they'd be pressured into firing you.

The fact that no US Citizens in Japan had been reported dead by the government in the time period that Near supposedly killed himself pretty much tells me it’s probably a hoax.

However, I do hope it was not a hoax, and not because I want him dead, but because I am not looking forward to the era where people commit fake “suicides” as the ultimate way to bring attention to a cause or argument, or just as a way to “win” and get the last word. It’s the climax of clout chasing IMO. But it takes away from people who actually do commit suicide and minimizes their tragedies, as our first instinct will eventually be to assume all suicides are fake.

We have not crossed that line yet as a society, but I fear someday we will. Already I doubt anyone has actually killed themselves because of KF.

This is misleading.

https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/international-tra...

If you look at this, yes, no deaths are shown for the date of Near's death. But if you actually pay attention, no deaths are shown anywhere past May 2021.

On and before May 2021, the death rate is about one per month. It's pretty much impossible that just by chance there would be seven consecutive months with no deaths; the reasonable conclusion is that the death listings are not in fact complete and that anyone who died after May 2021 just isn't listed.

> On and before May 2021, the death rate is about one per month. It's pretty much impossible that just by chance there would be seven consecutive months with no deaths

That's possible, but it's worth pointing out that only unnatural deaths are cataloged. This does not include deaths by a natural cause.

The one per month rate that I'm comparing it to is the previous months of the same list, and also includes only unnatural deaths.

It is difficult to die unnaturally in Japan, and given the small number of US Citizens living there, it is certainly possible to have long periods of no unnatural death.

By that reasoning there shouldn't be a death per month in the previous years. But there was. Going from that to nothing is a drastic change and rather improbable.

Correlation does not equal causation.

There are many trans people who have been terrorized by KF, had their partners and parents harassed and so on. I'm not going to link their Twitter threads because plenty of people in this thread openly admit to being KF users.

edit to respond to xwdv below: Unlike you, I care about trans people and their loved ones being terrorized.

I don’t care if they’ve been terrorized what I’m saying is I don’t want people faking suicides as the next attention grabbing strategy, and as a way to wrongfully throw blood on other people’s hands. Just do not cross that line. Deaths are one of the few things that people still somewhat respect online.

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