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Comment by Jochim | Hacker News Reader

Also in the UK. Personally I'm sick of seeing our government cosy up to authoritarian regimes because they have something we happen to want. In the UK we're particularly unlucky in that the people currently in charge don't really care if the poor in our society freeze or starve as they've stated so astutely in the recent leadership contest.

The rest of the G7 at least seem prepared to shield their population as much as possible through planning and government intervention, which is probably why they seem much less concerned.

On top of that, the answer to the pain of the current sanctions isn't to go back to relying on Russian gas. It's to pump covid levels of investment into alternatives that don't require us to prop up quasi-dictatorships in order to keep the lights on.

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>alternatives that don't require us to prop up quasi-dictatorships in order to keep the lights on

But how? The entire economy of the city of London is based on being the word's money laundering capital, vacation playground and best buddy for Russian Oligarchs, Saudi Royals, CCP big shots and other wealthy dictators and warlords. It's Thacher's legacy.

> entire economy of the city of London

Is pretty much the entire economy of the UK.

Yes Thatcher had her part to play, but election after election after referendum, the will of the people is more of the same Great British exceptionalism.

People get what they vote for. What's the problem?

I am extremely comfortable with people having to suffer the obvious consequences of their choicse, it only bothers me hearing them moan about it.

People moan about it because they and their governments haven't understood the consequences of their votes and actions. They wanted to have their cake and eat it too.

It doesn't help that elections are also just popularity contests and charades of endless lies and empty promises. Your average voter is far too I'll equipped to make informed judgements on complex issues making them easy to influence through fear mongering by groups with vested interests in seeing the results they want.

Everything is fucked.

> I am extremely comfortable with people having to suffer the obvious consequences of their choicse [sic]

Of course, because you probably don't have to live with any serious consequences of your choices, and you're most likely unaffected by these ones either.

Almost half if not more than half of the population in a democracy usually doesn't get to make a realistic choice, they voted for the losers without enough power to enact anything.

Most people don't get to live with the result of their choices but the result of others'. This means the pain is lessened for those responsible, and heightened for others. Are they allowed to moan without triggering your sensibilities? How would you know which is which?

Then realistically you probably didn't get to "suffer" the real consequences from most of your democratic process related choices. If you voted for leadership that went on to wage an illegal war you don't get to bear any of that responsibility. People love to bang their own drum about democracy, and freedoms, and their power, and the contribution they made. Until you bring up what the leaders they chose did. And then it's no longer their responsibility, then it's just a stamp on a paper, not a share of the responsibility. What are the consequences you suffer for something like that?

> Then realistically you probably didn't get to "suffer" the real consequences from most of your democratic process related choices.

An example of this that I have heard many times is that of Blair and Iraq.

However now the situation is more interesting as Brexit was done to themselves, not others (though that does not make any suffering ok).

> Brexit was done to themselves

Part of my point is that unanimity (amongst the people) in democracy is pretty much unheard of. So Brexit was not done by everyone. Realistically it wasn't even done by a majority of the population. All the others are in for the ride despite being against it.

Democracy may be the best system we've got now but it sure sucks sometimes. It's why it's called the dictatorship of the majority, and many countries are democratic and yet have very little protections for the different minorities, particularly the ones who have no chance of becoming a majority anytime soon.

The other part of the point is that most times people don't suffer from some of their decisions despite taking credit for any when it suits them. Similar to sport fans where when their team wins "we won", and when it loses "they lost".

An interesting point about both is that the proponents garnered their support through extensive lies, directly and through the media.

Public support of the Iraq war went hand in hand with the UN both finding WMDs and approving action[0].

The lies about Brexit are pretty infamous: from £350m/week for the NHS to stoking immigration fears and the fabrication of EU powers.

While it's disappointing that people are convinced by these types of lies, I'm not sure they're fully to blame; or that it does much good to do so. The bigger question is how do you combat these lies. The ones that seem to tickle the part of the brain where factual arguments don't seem to have much sway.

[0] https://www.ipsos.com/en-uk/iraq-last-pre-war-polls

I think it'd be more accurate to say the will of some people given the effects of the current voting system. That's without going into the effectiveness of tabloid newspapers in inventing public opinion. While people bear at least some responsibility for their actions, I do think they can be put into perspective when you consider the circumstances which led to them.

> London is based on being the word's money laundering capital, vacation playground and best buddy for Russian Oligarchs, Saudi Royals, CCP big shots and other wealthy dictators and warlords.

Having lived in Zurich for many years, those are fightin' words! /j

As a friend of mine defined Zurich in the mid 90s - Zurich - the Swiss city where one of ten is Swiss ...

The irony - she was mail order bride that just got her Swiss citizenship.

The quasi-Xenophobes are well and truly out of their closet.

I am full blown xenophobe, not quasi, but not in this case since I was from her home country and were visiting her for a week - but we spend probably half an hour in Zurich trying to find someone that knows the place and speak German or French at acceptable level to give us directions. It was during the late evening and out of 15 people we stopped like one was swiss.

I'm sorry to hear you had such an outlier of an experience - I've never been met with anything except understanding when asking for directions in any of the national languages.

> we spend probably half an hour in Zurich trying to find someone that knows the place and speak German or French at acceptable level to give us directions. It was during the late evening and out of 15 people we stopped like one was swiss.

Stopped...successfully? And does Swiss German count as "an acceptable level of German" :)? I don't find it hard to believe that 14 people would pass you by (as people would in a major city), but I find it hard to believe that out of 14 people, none would speak the major national languages.

No one passed us by. Everyone was very polite while we tried to communicate. We didn't speak English, and the ones that we met that spoke German or French were also foreigners. Just all of the people that we met that night were foreigners (I can remember Spaniard, Italian and Brazilian). It was 30 years ago. Zurich for me was even then insanely cosmopolite city.

It was mostly amusing. Not bad in any way.

Why Thatcher and not Blair? His reforms have a more direct influence on the situation we find ourselves in. After all, it was Mandelson who said "We are intensely relaxed about people getting filthy rich."

Because it's all politicians since Thatcher ? But i will admit that the Third way, like it's French equivalent 10 years ago, can do more harm faster than regular liberals.

I think it's deeply ingrained in British culture, through its very much alive social class system. Precisely what Brits (seem to?) like about that qaint system is what makes it possible to maintain such a careless elite class that is not only not punished for creating extractive vehicles such as the City, but even praised and rewarded for it, through British identity politics. "Great" Britain, world power, A-rank capital, and so on.

Brits never saw a social revolution, and it shows.

It's also worth remembering that Russian forces have committed an assassination [0] on UK soil using radioactive material, and attempted another one that was bungled and killed an innocent English police officer _in England_ [1].

The general feeling towards Russia in the UK is very hostile, and there are certainly a huge number of people happy to put the squeeze on Putin. There is little to no enthusiasm for appeasement here, and the pressure is on the government to ease the pressure on the vulnerable without bending over to Russian foreign policy.

[0]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Litvinenko

[1]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poisoning_of_Sergei_and_Yuli...

> The general feeling towards Russia in the UK is very hostile

It’s complicated though, as the money is loved, despite the toxic effect on property prices and political parties.

While BJ has made a show of his support for Ukraine, his relationship with Russia has been interesting.

> the people currently in charge don't really care if the poor in our society freeze or starve as they've stated so astutely in the recent leadership contest.

I am prepared to believe that until next week they are fully aware that the people who will elect them genuinely don't care about the poor. After that I hope the idea of getting re-elected by the public will induce a sudden change of plan, if not heart.

I hope you are right, but nothing in recent history would suggest you you.

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