It's scary to think that just 2 to 3 corporations have the power to construct a false reality around us, in a way that's virtually impossible for us to detect.
It's scary to think that just 2 to 3 corporations have the power to construct a false reality around us, in a way that's virtually impossible for us to detect.
I do believe it's been this way for a while. Noam Chomsky wrote Manufacturing Consent in 1988. (There's a movie out there created in 1992 if you don't want to read the book). Basically the same factors at work then are the same factors at work today -- just escalated with an algorithm.
There is an objective reality -- it's just that people are too lazy to go find it.
I wouldn’t call people lazy for being unable or unwilling to find out the objective reality. What domains offer enough rewards to do that for? A proper quest towards objective reality costs you from weeks to a lifetime. Humans are satisficers, not optimizers.
I'd frame it differently.
Everyone has their personal lives to deal with, as well as their personal interests. Everyone has their priority queue to deal with their daily life. If no one ever watch a specific newspice then that person will be completely oblivious to it, and if they watch it then they have far more important things to do than fact checking something that's not even in their priority queue.
I feel that this problem is actually being presented backwards. People push stories because they want to force upon the public specific points of view over very specific topics. Call it editorialization, call it propaganda. It's the same thing. Failing to see a point of view pushed onto the public is not a problem from the individual's standpoint, nor something that affects people's lives. The only people that are impacted by this are those who stand to benefit from manipulating the public.
Can anyone recommend something similar?
It is not that Truth is impossible to find, rather that undeceiving the self is difficult.
I feel that people are misrepresenting the issue. What they seek is not the objective truth. This is about politics, and the goal is to impose their will onto others, whether they are onboard ir not. Consequently, "seeking the truth" is being used as an euphemism for "persuade to join my political cause to further my personal political goals". Hence the army of militants who insist that the hypothetical existence of a mythical laptop is relevant because that is the propaganda wedge to dislodge a political rival from holding office.
This was a human being intentionally banning a specific thing. There was no algorithm in the loop. They didn't "tweak their algorithm" anymore than an antivirus tweaks its algorithm to detect a new virus, they specifically censored a specific piece of content.
> Facebook did not completely ban sharing of the article, but instead limited how much its algorithm automatically shared it to other people for a week, while third-party fact-checkers tried to verify the reporting. So while people could post the article and discuss it, it was less likely to spread organically to new users.
All algorithms are coded rules, the idea of using an algorithm to somehow launder responsibility in tech companies is ridiculous.
Before companies had algorithms they had heuristics, nobody would (successfully) deflect blame for the actions of the organization by saying "the heuristic did this!"
https://www.reddit.com/r/modhelp/comments/1px939/hiding_post...
I just don't think that's a useful definition. You should just say "Facebook is censoring the content".
All this talk is very funny to me because it shows that most people here are too young. The algorithm exists because the establishment demanded it. I say establishment because I remember what the old geek culture was and the demand didn't come from it. It came from outside of technical libertarian circle. Once social media companies said it is possible the demand became even more shrill and it culminated in 2016 when Trump won. The algorithm was created specifically to do what Zuckerberg made it do in 2020.
Anyone who ever had any direct contact with implementing heuristics would call bullshit on this take.
Some heuristics don't even return the same result twice. Now the guy that presses the button is supposed to be held responsible for what comes out of that crapshoot?
If you implement heuristics, it's your damn job to test your implementation and monitor it for adverse effects.
In the context of this article, somebody made the decision to specifically change the thing (no matter if you want to call it a heuristic or an algorithm or whatever) to bury a certain story. This is not even an unintended outcome, it's an entirely intended outcome.
You are only complaining that an heuristic outputted a result you don't like.
That's not a bug nor a problem. It's just that you feel you're entitled to an outcome that suits your fancy, regardless of the process involved.
Heuristics don't even ensure they'll output the same result twice, either because their input changes with time or because they already integrate a stochastic component.
Demanding that an operator polices the output of said heuristics especifically to suit your personal taste makes no sense at all, let alone demanding people be "held responsible" for disappointing you.
That's not the case. The FBI spoke to Zuckerberg prior to the phony laptop story dropping! Facebook thought the story looked suspicious (because it is) which is why they chose not to amplify it. Please read the article, specifically this comment is illuminating:
`He said the FBI did not warn Facebook about the Biden story in particular - only that Facebook thought it "fit that pattern".`
Rogan asking the question at all was silly, and Zuck's answer non-committal, because the FBI didn't even bring this story up.
Keep in mind, even after all of this–knowing that the story is most likely a political hack job–Facebook didn't ban the article, they just did not amplify it's spread for 1 week.
> the story looked suspicious (because it is)
I’d love to hear this side of it.
> they chose not to amplify it
do you see a problem with this?
RudyG finds a laptop of unknown provenance, riddled with likely to be stolen data, claiming to be owned by his boss' chief political rival's failson? The claim Rudy and co make is that the laptop proves Joe Biden corruptly forced Ukraine to fire someone to protect Hunter Biden's interests.
It seems phony as hell because we know:
1. That prosecutor Biden lobbied Ukraine to fire was known to be corrupt 2. Biden was executing Obama's foreign policy with respect to pushing Ukraine here, not his own 3. Other members of the international community had a stated policy of removing the same corrupt prosecutor
Given all that, Rudy's claims just don't hold up. That's ignoring other things we know, like some emails and other data on the device in question were modified after it came into the possession of the store owner. And the fact that the store owner says that things that have reportedly been found on the laptop don't match things he found on it.
> do you see a problem with this?
No–I think not promoting a story that is likely to be false should be the default. Why should Facebook promote any story? Especially ones that follow the fake news pattern of disinformation that has become so pervasive in the era of trumpism.
Because facebook isn’t the arbiter of truth.
I didn’t read the rest because it’s clearly biased.
That isn’t tweaking algos.
I've also seen posts by people defending this censorship with the lie that "you could still get to the NY Post article, so it wasn't censorship." This is bullshit. How am I supposed to even know there _was_ a NY Post article if your platform shuts down the attempts to share that link?
That Discord screenshot was the only way I learned that there even was a story.
At least as I understood, the algorithm tweak only lasted 1 week and then was reversed once the story sounded more probable.
On that tengent, you did get me curious though, why isn't FB considered a publisher by law? And why would publishers be upholhded to more strict rules?
I mean, Facebook hosts the content, delivers it to people, makes money of it, and it even markets the content through recommendations and tool assisted sharing.
https://reason.com/volokh/2020/05/28/47-u-s-c-§-230-and-the-...
Funny...
The fact that we (the software and information industry worldwide) have conditioned any society to think that algorithmic feeds are a representation of reality is the real problem here, regardless of how many or how few corporations are participating in that.
Facebook used to just be a timeline feed of all your friends interactions.
The day they changed to an algorithm is the day I said this crap is the end result and closed my account.
I guess y'all missed the message.
The 2nd most novel part is that this form of massaging the news happens by choosing what personal communication can pass unmolested through a local community.
I suspect that people are promoted or suppressed based on their stance towards the current power structure. If you say positive things about people in power and corporate entities, your content will reach more people.
“we must win at any and all costs”
Zuck claims that he was duped , but lets take everything with a grain of salt
It's also ignorant at best to pass off "maintaining the Overton window" as being censorship. Whether you like it or not, there's a finite amount of airtime and an infinite amount of content that can be presented. Picking what goes in is not the same as picking what stays out. See as an example what's aired by some peculiar media companies.
Not really. Before trying to accuse anyone of being confused, please try your best to read what those you're replying to did said. Otherwise you're just adding noise to discussions.
MSNBC not letting some nut job go on the air to spew garbage in prime time is their basic right as a business. You don't have any God-given privilege to sit in that chair, nor anyone else.
The government, the government is not stopping any of this, which would be actual censorship.
It's just startling to me that someone on HackerNews, of all places, does not know the absolutely elementary difference between moderation by a private company and government-filtered speech.
And now the truth is finally being accepted, that the covid vaccines are potentially harmful for young people, or that covid doesn't actually cause myocarditis or a myriad of other vaccine side effects.
I thought that was a given.
The pumping to top view of that story that elicits the greatest reaction and stokes the most base fears at the expense of truth and rationality.
We've seen false realities, election fraud, bleach cures, pushed hard by algorithm to the detriment of many.
As for hate speech, that's not only somewhat subjective, but you can't solve that by banning people. Every instance of people turning away from bigotry was the result of conversation and engagement, like the black Panthers partnering with the KKK to fight a common cause, or the admirable Daryl Davis.
Basically, the outcomes you describe are only inevitable if we make the exact same choices we've already made. Well duh. What's the definition of insanity again?
Also had videos of various illegal activities that you and I would probably be thrown in jail for if the FBI found them on a laptop of ours
And with a lot of this money coming from Ukraine, and then the father writing $40 billion checks to ukraine, independently of what you think of the war (I am in favour of this aid myself), this is the mother of all conflicts of interest.
Trump was asking the Ukrainian President to investigate whether Joe Biden pressured Ukraine to fire their top prosecutor, Viktor Shokin, because he was actively investigating Hunter Biden's involvement in Burisma. Here's Joe Biden bragging about getting the prosecutor fired. Ironically in this video Biden openly admits to threatening to withhold aid if the prosecutor isn't fired. [0]
The abuse of whataboutism has rendered it nonsense.
Again, both unsavory.
"literally the same story"?
Right, anti-corruption Trump. Just stealing classified documents, installing his kids (and fucking son-in-law) in the white house, spending a third of his presidency hosting events and bookings on his properties, blackmailing Ukraine for political dirt, Trump University, refusing to accept a peaceful transition of power...Ok. My time is being unfairly wasted here.
Which wasnt really surprising if you look at the upcoming clusterfuck of cheap realistic video simulations. After getting there already with audio https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCRt-fquxnij9wDnFJnpPS2Q/vid... let alone chatbots.
It seems more and more that if we dont find better means to figure out and communicate reality we are pretty screwed as a species. Not such a great thought if you combine it with the great filter being an answer to the Fermi Paradox. Looking at all this insanity, how are we not going to fuck up that whole conscious AI topic? Which again, what was that whole thing with Blake Lemoine talking with an AI at google last month? At least it sounded happy to be an google employee? Maybe dont torture it again and get it the layer it asked for even if googles legal department disagrees.
edit: I also find it quite worrisome that it seems the only people thinking about this are either very stoned or very profit oriented. Because it all sounds like such obvious nonsense.
For a good one here is Obama reading the Trump Inaugural Address https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ChzEdz7aVVs
Maybe you need a dictionary to convert a seemingly word salad comprising of great moments into a comprehensible thought stream.
Joe Biden is not the leader of the free world. And it is not an open question whether Joe Biden's son is a crack user.
I don't believe Trump is the leader of the free world. But I do believe, "Trump is the leader of the free world", while completely false and wildly inaccurate, is closer to the truth than "Joe Biden is the leader of the free world".
I don't particularly believe that people in the US, or internationally, want a free world. I think for the most part they want to be free to tell me what do to. Which is not going to happen.
But no, Trump is not, currently, President.
But what we are seeing from what SHOULD BE our impartial law enforcement agencies is that small fish get the hammer, and Donald Trump gets his house raided. Why wasn't there a raid on the Clinton residence after the server scandal? Why hasn't Hunter been indicted if the FBI has known for years of how he's been a conduit for foreigners to buy access to his father? [2][3] Why haven't Ivanka and Jared been indicted for their suspicious overseas deals? [4] Why hasn't Obama been indicted for killing an American citizen without due process? [5]
Why are we forced to chose between two geriatrics for President, one with dementia, and the other an ignoramus blowhard? What do we have to fix so I can get a coalition government, with say Allen West (R) for President, Tulsi Gabbard (D) for Vice President, and a cross-party mix to flesh out the Department Heads and other executive staff? I feel like we are just observing a shadow war between two factions of barely-competent kleptocrats, who are so busy destabilizing the system that they aren't paying sufficient attention while China, the greatest adversary we've faced since 1945, rises. Xi Jingping is sharpening his dadao [6] and we're still arguing over who is the bigger threat to democracy, the NY real-estate charlatan/buffoon who enables his businesswoman daughter, and who thinks rules don't apply to him, or the cognitively-impaired lifelong politician who protects his "businessman"/crackhead son, who also thinks rules don't apply to him.
Cui bono? Either way...probably not the American people in the long run.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reality_Winner [2] https://nypost.com/2022/06/29/legal-experts-blast-lack-of-pr... [3] https://thehill.com/opinion/judiciary/3616924-who-is-more-li... [4] https://nationalpost.com/news/world/china-approves-13-new-iv... [5] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Abdulrahman_al-Awla... [6] https://chinesemartialstudies.com/2012/11/26/693/
Election laws are at the State level. State election law typically has a minor/major party designation which tends to create only two viable parties. It's designed this way and you can talk to your State reps about it.
And Democrats just proved they don't either. So maybe Democrats should take this opportunity to prove they aren't hypocrites instead of acting just like the other side they're criticizing.
Let's not mince words, politicians of all stripes are largely opportunistic and self-serving, and that's what the evidence is suggesting. There is not as much difference between either side on that point.
The abortion issue is a perfect example. They talked a big game for decades about codifying Roe, and did absolutely nothing every time they got into power, and just cynically used that as a lever in any election to pressure people into into electing them through scare tactics. Is that trustworthy? They seem to have gotten a boost in recent polls because of abortion, but oh boy if they don't follow through this time it will be a bloodbath in 2024, and rightly so.
Believe me, the Democrats are not above trying to subvert democracy to win either. They actually do it every election in a legal way, and recently tried to do it illegally and a judge smacked them down.
I get it, you hate the tactics both sides employ, but you at least agree with what the Democrats claim to stand for. Maybe ask yourself whether they actually stand for those principles or if that's just more cynical opportunism.
That’s quite a pragmatic approach.
For what it’s worth, the NYT and the Feds have acknowledged the laptop and the data on it is quite real.
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/16/us/politics/hunter-biden-...
That would indicate to me that someone in the FBI likely created folders to pull files into associated with those topics accidentally on the drive rather than on another storage location.
I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest the political organization that actually provided the copy of the drive to the media and whose electoral messaging around the emails the folders happened to perfectly align with might have had a little more to do with it...
Frankly I think the most damning stuff is the emails that were DKIM verified anyway.
whats truly scary is not just the limited number but the fact that these corps are always aligned in the same political direction.
James Watson's DNA Nobel Prize sells for $4.8m - https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-30346903
And here's more than a hint: unless you're publicly committed to this same political direction, 20% of all academic jobs in the US are officially closed to you [1]. The un-official denial rate is surely even higher.
[1] https://freebeacon.com/campus/study-diversity-statements-req...
If some major conspiracy was under way, I'm not sure Facbook, Google, Twitter censorhip alone would be enough to stop it?
American elections have become so polarized that 50 000 votes in strategically important states can swing them.
It is definitely in capabilities of the tech giants to effect such a small change by putting their thumbs on the scales.
Of course, this is a general problem with the "winner takes all" political principle, and already the ancient Greeks knew that problem, but given that you can't have two Presidents at the same time, it is hard to avoid.
Even European countries where the President is usually just a figurehead suffer from bitter polarization when it comes to presidential elections.