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Comment by matsur | Hacker News Reader

Amusing to see “check if the handle opens the door” as an explicit step called out multiple times.

It’s real though. When you’re making procedures “do the obvious thing” has to be the first step and putting it in there will prevent so many mistakes. Checklists work. Trusting people to do the obvious reasonable thing in repetitive or stressful situations does not.

Obligatory call out to "The Checklist Manifesto"

http://atulgawande.com/book/the-checklist-manifesto/

Thanks for this, I ended up down the rabbit hole of David Lee Roth and no brown M&M's backstage which is both an amusing story a) about how the media industry works and also b) of putting something seemingly innocuous but easily verifiable in the middle of a long checklist as an early warning sign of a process not having been followed properly, which obviously has applications anywhere something critical is being done.

Hopefully the surgeon insights in the book are equally valuable.

https://rockcelebrities.net/the-reason-behind-david-lee-roth...

Seat belt use* is the brown M&M of the US fire service community. If you don't see regular seat belt use in your local fire department, you should find out why. It typically means the company officers just aren't doing their job. If your department -

A. Wears seat belts; B. Chocks the wheels religiously; C. Checks if the door is locked before breach; D. Positions apparatus for, but does not initiate water supply properly at all credible alarms; they're going after some really pernicious problems, typically driven by sheer laziness, in the fire service.

*FFs, yes ice rescue, I know, edge case.

Amusing, but not strange in the least. Pilots sometimes need to remember in incipient emergencies that first, they should fly the plane.

I worked a bit in e-commerce and the first sentence I wrote in every incident response manual was "Does the potentially affected website work?" Because people would forget to check that!

Its the same thing in all CPR manuals. First check for pulse/breathing before doing anything else. Actually you should start by trying to wake them by yelling or shaking them around a bit.

This is very common in lots of emergency procedure checklists. First check if you actually need to do this procedure/use the tool/etc.

Definitely don’t shake an unconscious person around unless you’re sure that they don’t have a spinal injury.

And you think you giving them CPR would not do even more damage (good luck holding them still while pumping their hearth through their ribs)? Obviously if you see them take some big hit treat them with that possibility but if you see some random person passed on the street making sure their brain is receiving oxygen is always the first priority. (after making sure the patient is in a safe place so remove them from a burning building first etc.)

Agreed, priority is to ensure there’s oxygen to the brain- but in the process of ascertaining if they’re indeed unconscious, don’t start by grabbing their shoulders and shaking them violently. Touching their hands and face as pointed out in a sibling comment is better, and after determining that they’re not breathing and have no pulse definitely proceed with vigorous CPR because potentially paralyzed is of course better than dead. Also, be aware of whether Good Samaritan laws protect you from liability before deciding to proceed.

if it is safe and you can control your motions, touching the face or holding the hands are a start

"Try before you pry" as the saying goes...

...as opposed to "kick in the door first, ask questions later"?

This is for firefighters, not the FBI.

There are many anecdotes of people trying to convince the firefighters that they can open the door normally, and the firefighters not letting them use the keys and breaking the door instead.

It can be frustrating for the homeowners but firefighters are probably trained to think that "every second counts" and damage is of course irrelevant, as the fire will destroy everything if it spreads.

But it's good that they would at least test the handle.

Keys I can understand, but handle is something inexcusable. Just getting the equipment or placement to break the door must take more time.

> Just getting the equipment or placement to break the door must take more time

Firefighters stroll up with a Halligan Hook and an 8 pound axe. Entry can be fast. Even a lot of medium-weight metal doors and frames will yield in less than 10 seconds of skilled use.

Not quite as quick as the handle, but if the handle usually doesn't work...

From experience probably. something that is missed often, when you're focused on a protocol that says "forcible entry"

And you expect most doors to be locked.

It is the equivalent to the very important advice for engineers: "Switch it off and on again!"

That's not the same though. Switching it off and on might clear the problem for now but it doesn't explain why the problem occurred and how to avoid it happening again.

And “check if the handle opens the door” explains the problem and avoids it happening again?

Would really have helped the Uvalde police department.

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