Hacker News Reader

Hacker News

Comment by D13Fd | Hacker News Reader

Parent Full thread

D13Fd

Thoughts:

- Excellent job

- The font choices are bold. They don’t appeal to me personally, but nice job.

- The sunk/raised key caps look nice but I’m not sure how they would perform in practice.

- I couldn’t tell from the website what the second switch on the site does. Maybe USB/Bluetooth?

- My strong preference is a key command for switching from Bluetooth/USB, and that the keyboard keep both active for instant switching. The only keyboard I’ve found that does this well is the micropython-based M60.

- I’m not a fan of the look of the dial. It sticks up too far and looks like something that could break.

View on HN

The font thing is bigger than people might think. As soon as I saw the number row, I had such an immediate and harsh reaction to it that it surprised me.

I almost couldn't believe that was the cause, but when I waited for the device to turn around again, that was definitely it.

I don't even have to look at my fingers often, but I wouldn't be able to stand walking by those numbers on a regular basis. I don't think I've ever had such a visceral response to an aesthetic choice before.

I agree - for me I like the keyboard as a whole, but the bits that bug me are:

- the rotary encoder. I don't see what the aim of this is - what's the intended usecase?

- the font on the numbers. I feel like it should match the font used on the other keys instead, which I think I like but it's hard to tell because there's no good actual picture of the keyboard as a whole

- drop the model name on the right. I get that you've made a keyboard that is a design statement, but it would bug me as an owner. Move it to the bottom.

edit: for context, I already have a not dissimilar in terms of concept Keychron K3. That puts page up/down/home/end in that blank space on the right where you've put the model name. It does make the keyboard feel more cluttered, but I do find myself using those keys frequently.

oh, and is it backlit? I am assuming not from the specs, which is unfortunate. an understated, not too bright, white only backlight would be really nice to have on a keyboard like this.

> the rotary encoder. I don't see what the aim of this is - what's the intended usecase?

I actually have a separate USB rotary encoder next to my keyboard. Glad to see it integrated into the design. It's like a more comfortable mouse wheel. If you need to scroll a lot (editing audio, for example), the constant "scroll a little, lift finger, scroll a little, lift finger" routine gets old real fast. But if you've got a wide enough knob, you can just spin it around indefinitely in one circular motion.

One typical use for a rotary encoder is volume control.

The sticking-upwards knob makes the keyboard harder to transport though. It definitely risks to be broken off when put into a backpack.

I've had a dual boiler espresso machine (La Spaziale S1) for 10 years that's a typography horror show. There are less than 10 words on the device and they managed to use 4 completely different fonts: their logo font (which I actually like), a squat serif thing for 'S1', an ugly script font, and worst of all for the 'BOILER' and 'ON/OFF' buttons: Comic Sans. It occasionally bothers me but most of the time I'm able to forget about it and enjoy using it.

The egregious use of fonts (at least 4 different?) and the terrible mismatch of the historical Apple font and current product text on back of the keyboard is what brought me to the comments.

I even had to google images of your espresso machine to see what you were talking about. Wow....

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/1616/2815/products/M-VIVAL...

Sometimes things have their own personalities and I came to love that and stop obsessing over how I wish they were designed. At the end of the day we’re free to design and build things ourselves. What’s more irking to me is bad functional design that makes awkward to use things.

I agree. The fonts don't bother me so much as the ISO layout does, and even that's kind of a "meh" and something I likely wouldn't care about so much as the otherwise clean styling and the fact it's projected to have some features I like (Bluetooth, low profile, mechanical switches, etc).

Truthfully, from a quick search it appears that the Kailh low profile switches are reasonably easy to find key caps for. I like blank keyboards (uh, don't ask), so I'd probably just buy some blank caps and replace the ones that it comes with. I had to do that with some of the keys on my Das anyway because the stems broke after < 1 year of use, and I've been contemplating PBT key caps for a while.

To each his own! I'd probably buy this, if I were honest.

Agreed. The rest of the keyboard looks great, the numbers look too large and childish.

I guess it’s intended to be “iconic”, but, well, being iconic often also means increasing the ratio of people who actively dislike it.

Sure but these types of keyboards are niche and not likely to hit mass production. The font on the number keys reminds me of OP-1, a niche luxury synth with a hefty price tag. It’s a good market to budge in because select people are willing to dispense larger sums of money. I wonder how much this one costs.

It believe it significantly reduces the number of potential buyers for an already-niche product.

PCB designer of the board here - The second switch can toggle USB/Bluetooth profile 1/Bluetooth profile 2 (3 pos slider), but the board runs the open source ZMK firmware and you can reconfigure it however you want. Auto-switching between BT and USB is not used on the current firmware (as it would make the USB slider pos quite useless), but the firmware can absolutely do it.

EDIT: You could for example reconfigure the slider to switch between BT profile 1/2/3, and have the board auto-switch to USB when plugged in. Would take ~2min for me since I know my way around ZMK, bit more if you have to dig into how ZMK works first ofc.

Congrats on the design, using ZMK seems like a solid choice.

Did you consider adding a small screen?

I've always hated bluetooth keyboards until I built a Zaphod (which also runs ZMK). And just being able to see battery estimate, whether it is trying to pair, or which device it is currently connected to has made it a much smoother experience.

Why a screen?

"battery estimate, whether it is trying to pair, or which device it is currently connected to"

All of that could be done more elegantly with a row of LEDs like on the side of an old unibody MacBook.

That was such a nice bit of design. I wish Apple still did that.

If It's ZMK, does this mean I could flash in a new configuration to Dvorak? (I know, Dvorak is a bad habit. I'm trying to quit. Really.)

One bit that I find helpful is that the keycaps are all the same height/angle so that I can rearrange them... hopefully..

Sure thing. We'll release the original firmware configuration alongside with the board, so changing the keymap and recompiling a new firmware wouldn't be a big deal, flashing is easy over USB (and once ZMK studio is ready, you will even be able to live-remap over USB/BT without a recompile/reflash).

What about Dvorak is a bad habit?

Only thing I can imagine - super hard to find keycaps.

I think auto-switch to USB makes a lot more sense. That’s also how the Apple keyboards, and trackpads work.

I like the idea of indented keys as a clear sensory differentiator. It’s a nice nudge to tell you, “You’re in the right spot.”

Same for the pronounced bump on the home row.

The switch is to choose between one of two Bluetooth devices. I agree the placement of the USB label was confusing there.

True but if this keyboard is your daily driver those sunk keys are going to get dirty quickly and cleaning them well would be more difficult than a simple flat key with a small tactile bump.

Why do you feel a need to emphasize the number keys and the section sign by giving their characters such a disproportionately large size than other keys? And why do you feel a need to deemphasize the function keys by giving them such a small font size? I very much dislike these choices.

I can't really tell if the numbers are in a different font than the rest of the keys, but if they are, I'd dislike that too. Please use a single font for the whole keyboard.

Aesthetics are a major selling point for your keyboard, so I think you need to spend more time and get expert advice about the fonts.

Finally, this is evidently a Mac-oriented keyboard, given how the control keys are labeled. If you plan to target the Windows market, you may wish to provide layouts with Windows-oriented control keys that are labeled as such (namely Ctrl, Alt, and the Windows key, or something that looks like the Windows key.)

> My strong preference is a key command for switching from Bluetooth/USB, and that the keyboard keep both active for instant switching. The only keyboard I’ve found that does this well is the micropython-based M60.

Epomaker's keyboards also do this, at least my SK66 does. Fn+Space switches between wired/BT and Fn+[Z|X|C] switches between the three BT connections. It also flashes blue on the active connection so that you know you've switched into BT mode.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com