Hacker News Reader

Hacker News

Comment by pnathan | Hacker News Reader

Parent Full thread

pnathan

That is a thought experiment, not a citation.

Also, German schooling was famously rigid, and produced a sizable crop of scientists in the 1900-1960 era.

View on HN

Actually, German schooling was more famous for it's freedom unlike it's French brother.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_European_research_un...

Hunh. That is decidedly not the image I had of German schooling. But thank you for the link. It's very interesting.

Most of the information seems to be stuck in books and harder to find on the internet, I looked for a really long time and that was the best resource I've found so far. It's very possible it's relative to other schooling models.

Your mistake is thinking that school produced those scientists. They produced themselves despite school, not because of it, and they thrived because Germany invested heavily higher education and research. Science in Germany was due to German philosophy, higher education, and lots of funds.

Universities in 1900 are indistinguishable from what we have now. In 1900 they were still targeted at the wealthy and unusually talented. Now they are just extended sunday school. Obedience training for adults.

Citations, please!

You are saying these things with massive assumptions!

edit for clarification: you are not using any sort of proof mechanism in your statements. No data, no citations.

Wouldn't it be great if you had a personal research assistant who would spend hours looking stuff up for you?

Wouldn't it be great if you had a conversation with someone who backed up their assertions instead of expecting belief?

I don't expect belief. I expect effort.

I imagine you doing the rounds at dinner parties raising your finger shouting "Citation needed!" over and over again.

Google: gatto, liberal education, conformity, obedience. My argument is a point of view, not a research study.

Gatto cites Dewey, for the record.

No, I expect the asserter to reference things that back their view up if they want me to believe it. Especially if the view is not obvious and controversial.

If your point of view has no data behind it that you are willing to reference besides a singular biased point of information, then I have no reason to believe you. (Hint, if you are read in an area, it's trivial to reference such things off the top of your head).

The cry for data on a topic like this is pointless. It's a point of view informed by my own experiences and observations as well as reading thousands of philosophers, scientists, educators, theologians, statistics, anecdotes, discussions, and so on.

I'm presenting my synthesized point of view based on a lifetime of contemplation. You're trying to cut it down on the merit of one or two citations.

Read the wikipedia article on "liberal education" and compare it to your experiences at public school. That is my citation.

> thousands of philosophers, scientists, educators, theologians, statistics, anecdotes, discussions, and so on.

So, how about citing some of them?

I am crying out for data, because only by the truth represented by data can we make informed decisions. All else is blowing in the wind, gibbering tones of madness based on personal biases and opinions.

further edit:

I specifically asked for citations to demonstrate the validity of this claim:

Nobody wants to admit that the concept of "school" itself was designed to church out assembly line slaves. It's not a surprise that when the system is designed to turn humans into robots... that's what you get. Anyone who comes out of school with useful skills does it despite school, not because of school. John Taylor Gatto figured this out years ago.

In particular, this is an assertion of design, ie, that it was designed. I am saying, "Let's have more information", that is, references to thinkers who have advocated the effect of your quote.

Specifically, I am requesting a demonstration, a proof of these (relatively controversial) claims besides mentioning Gatto. You have refused to provide these so far.

This is not a personal opinion position paper I am poking holes in. I am poking at the need for demonstratable truth to your claim.

Gatto IS the person who went through and made cites point by point about the education system. people point to him because he did a very good job. Sometimes you have to suck it up and read a book rather than expect people to summarize and rephrase what has already been laid out very nicely.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com