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Comment by mamoriamohit | Hacker News Reader

I have had an opposite experience. Daily notes makes no difference. I was in a relationship for 2 years and have written a poem every day for 400 days straight to her. But it failed nevertheless. In fact, I was told by her that these notes put her in guilt. Weird.

Gestures like these amplify whatever the relationship there is to start with.

If there's a lot of love, they amplify it.

If there's a lot of lack of commitment, they amplify it.

They do not change lack of commitment into love magically.

Sorry for being the party pooper. I understand where the OP is coming from and I truly respect that. Just wanted to add a bit of more context.

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> But it failed nevertheless. In fact, I was told by her that these notes put her in guilt. Weird.

I think you're missing some perspective here. You make it sound like you were the one really trying, and your partner is the one who was weird for not "getting it".

I would honestly be pretty freaked out if my partner wrote me daily poems for 400 days. It would come off as very needy and obsessive, and if it continued after me bringing it up, I could see it as a reason to break things off.

Of course some people might really like daily poems. But from what you wrote, it sounds a little like you've failed to read the room, and are now blaming others for that.

Same. Occasional poem? I'm not necessarily a fan, but it is thoughtful and boy, does that thoughtfulness go a long way. But daily is intense, and I'd much rather daily communication to be fairly direct and daily thoughtfulness being small things that are optional but nice (making me a cup of coffee when I'm groggily heading to the toilet in the morning, for example).

If you read what the OP wrote;

"I was in a relationship for 2 years and have written a poem every day for 400 days straight to her."

2 years is a lot more than 400 days. Maybe the relationship failed because they stopped.

Or perhaps they started on day 330.

Read the comment again. The recipient clearly didn't like the poems, and yet he still wrote four hundred of them.

> In fact, I was told by her that these notes put her in guilt.

No healthy relationship has one partner who cares so little about the other's feelings that they do something 400 times without finding out if it's welcome or not.

Yeah that sounds overwhelming. They better be consistently good poems too if you're pulling that move!

Imagine having to keep to yourself that you're not really into poems but your partner is doing this. It'd be heartbreaking to piss in those cheerios but how long could you keep it up?

Personally I'd have had to say enough with the poems already at day 6 or so

If my wife were the poem-writing type, I would love a poem a day for 30,000 days, let alone four hundred.

But paying attention to people when you give them something is very important. People are different. You may cringe at poems, but I love them. I brought one that someone else wrote for me on my first date with my now wife. We talked about getting married on our first date it went so well.

So I guess what I'm also trying to get at here is that your contribution of your opinion to the conversation may be valid, but it's more kind if it's not so universal as to be judgemental, since mamoriamohit may take it quite personally even though there is a kernel of useful information in what you're saying.

> I brought one that someone else wrote for me on my first date with my now wife.

Why would you bring a poem someone wrote you to a first date?

It's kinda a long story, but there is a semi-well known poet in Toronto that writes poetry for hire and she works near a park that we both walk by with some frequency.

I described how I felt about the person I was about to go on a date with, but told the poet not to write directly about my date, but to use it as inspiration for a story of some kind.

I can't really describe how I knew it would go over well, but I knew it would. I try to tailor gifts to the person I'm dating, and I wasn't the type to usually bring something to a first date, but we had a ton of chemistry and I wanted to show how interested I was.

i thought that poem was by a previous friend about you, but instead it was commissioned by you specifically for this date. that makes a lot more sense and is a rather lovely idea.

Aw, thank you :)

And I see the confusion about my previous response.

> have written a poem every day for 400 days straight to her

I'm sure this was a painful lesson to learn, but I hope you took the right thing away from it.

No healthy relationship is going to include 400 daily poems. It makes it seem like the subject of the poems is being put on a pedestal and idealized, not perceived as a real person with flaws.

It comes across as obsessive and, perhaps, insincere -- how can someone have 400 poems' worth of feelings for someone they've known for less than 2 years? And if they don't have those sincere feelings, what are they trying to accomplish?

Read a little bit about "love bombing" (not because I think you love-bombed anyone, but because it might help you understand how the recipient of this behavior might feel about it).

> No healthy relationship is going to include 400 daily poems.

A bold and absolutist claim. The GPs relationship was clearly not healthy, but the idea that no healthy relationship could exist where there is a daily poem is kinda ridiculous?

It's a pretty good first order approximation.

If you've written 400 daily poems and it doesn't seem to be having a positive effect, then it's certainly time to stop. If it's going well, then fair enough, you do you.

> If you've written 400 daily poems and it doesn't seem to be having a positive effect, then it's certainly time to stop.

I'd probably say stop at around 7 if not positive, because then it is just a weird week long gimmick...

I agree with this. It made me think about the Adam Sandler movie where he finds out his lover suffers from a condition where she can't retain new memories, and at the end of the movie the conflict is solved by them going to live on a boat and him re-seducting her every day for the rest of their lives.

Watching it as a kid made me think it was a heartwarming ending to the movie, but the older I get the creepier it gets. It is essentially a hostage situation if you think about it.

Anyways, not saying this is what OP did, but I guess it's an example of how seemingly sweet and well intentioned actions can also be overbearing. I can't say I would enjoy having someone write me poems for 400 days straight.

Obviously it's not quite the same thing, but reminds me of an old neighbour we had.

She used to love baking, and would bring round cakes/pastries/bread for us all the time.

It was really nice at first, but also made us feel very awkward/bad that we didn't reciprocate (neither of us really cook much), even though we'd never asked for the cakes.

Eventually we had to ask her to stop, since we just didn't want to eat that much unhealthy food. She took it as a bit of an insult, and ended up being a lot colder to us after that.

It was a shame, but I'm not sure what else we could have done - she was giving us something unasked for (which we felt burdened by, even though she said she never expected anything in return), and got upset when we asked her to stop.

I learned about this from my mom. She’s a giver, but to the point where we don’t want the stuff.

We appreciated the thought, but she would bring so many toys for our daughter it was overwhelming and we didn’t Have that much space.

It was clearly more for my mom than for us, she just likes to give.

So I reciprocated by saying thanks and promptly throwing/donating something older. This allowed my mom to keep giving and us to not have the clutter.

I’m glad to confirm what I already knew by your story. It would have hurt her and damaged our relationship if I would have asked her to stop.

My mother likes to give cheap things found in op shops. Definitely more about her than the recipient: the satisfaction of a bargain and seeing things be continued to be used. I think it’s also a subtle way to try to control others’ spending because … hey, you don’t need a new X anymore.

Anyway, after seeing the relationship futility of resisting the unwanted gifts too persistently, I now just give some approximation of a warm thank-you, then donate the items to a charity shop.

Cycle of life.

Debts are what bind neighbors and communities together. You felt bad because you were in debt to her giving but didn't want to have a relationship with that person by reciprocating. Often, the worst thing you can do in relationships is to get out of debt. Debts are a reason for people to see each other. By telling that person to 'stop baking', you told them essentially 'i don't want to have a relationship with you'. (see Debt, the first 500 years by David Graeber)

Great book. Another good one is Sacred Economics by Charles Eisenstein, which covers some of the same ground, in terms of understanding the dynamics that tie together people and communities, ensuring fairness and an appropriate level of redistribution, but with needing a formal money system or taxation. (Potlatching, for example...)

Looking back at it, I have plenty of good relationships that don't involve debts, maybe because I've avoided any that did.

I've always been very uncomfortable about being in debt to anyone for anything unasked for, that just seems manipulative to me.

I've not read David Graber's book though, added to my (evergrowing...) reading list, thanks.

The baking thing is real. People think they're helping you by loading you down with carbs and sugar. It's like someone buying you drinks - no, asking you to drink another round of his homebrewed beer - when you've already had enough. Upon reflection here, I think the best thing to do is probably to say "great, I'll eat this later" and feed it to the wild beasts.

This is called a “covert contract”. It’s perhaps the key part of “nice” behaviour that is everything but - you can’t tie someone up in a “deal” that they never agreed to. Even worse, punishing someone else for not keeping up their side of the non-negotiated “deal”

From the article...

> Though, I’ve set that expectation, and she holds me accountable to it, so I do it very often.

This is a shared ritual, which I feel is powerful in any type of relationship. You have rituals at work and with your friends. These rituals are an ingredient in the glue which give relationships meaning.

They need that shared sense of importance to work though. Other parts of the relationship should be healthy. Good communication is a must. Did she tell you that the notes made her feel guilty during this 400 day stretch? If not, then maybe communication was off.

I'm sorry for what you went through. When one person is giving more that the other relationships can be a real struggle. I've been there I gave 110% and it scared someone off. The entire thing felt awful.

Some years later I found my wife and she responds very differently. She would love a note every day. Any attention I give her is welcomed.

I hope things work out for you.

> I was in a relationship for 2 years and have written a poem every day for 400 days straight to her.

While there may be some people like you enjoying maxed up romantic relationships I would run away in no time from a partner just trying to hard. Imagine getting home everyday to be greeted with a "gift of a day", 10 bullet points in refined calligraphy how much he/she loves me, new scent, yet another laborious make up etc.

Most of us will never be able to match that, be it because of no time/energy or a simple "let me rest after work, read a book/go for a walk". Relationship imho is not an attempt to create a Siamese twins in a mental space. Satisfy the needs of your partner, top it with extra stuff, but do not try to kill it drowning him/her in a waterfall of attention, gifts, questions about everything, etc.

Most of us will never be able to match that

this is part of the problem though. the expectation that the contributions to our relationship should somehow be equal. yes, both partners should contribute something, and it is possible that one (or both) of the partners are not contributing enough, but wanting to limit my partners contributions because i can't keep up is a problem in itself. the proper response is to talk about it, to share how these poems or whatever it is, make you feel. and come to an understanding that both can work with. the most important thing to do is to listen what the partner has to say, and how they feel. as with all these things, it comes down to communication.

In order for a relationship to remain healthy, the communication has to be bi-directional (and both parties need to feel that it is bi-directional). Writing a poem to your partner every day can be fine; if it makes your partner feel like it drowns out or undermines their signals to you, it's insensitive.

If you have an issue with your communication to your partner (either in not producing it consistently or not feeling that it's received consistently), changing it up to something you can generate (and/or your partner can receive in the intended spirit), building a habit that changes up your communication can help. On the other hand, if that habit makes your partner feel inundated, overwhelmed, or drowns out their communication to you, it can make things worse.

> Just wanted to add a bit of more context.

This isn't really context it's more a subjective and singular viewpoint from somebody who's relationship failed and perhaps was always going to fail regardless of the poems.

Not trying to be horrible here...just pointing out that this is not context.

Writing a poem is a bit different than the writing OP doing which is communicating in general about everything and everyone.

I don't want to dunk on the act of writing poems which is perfectly fine, but that's the creation of art. If you look at how he structures his communication, there are active day-to-day issues/problems being addressed that if left unresolved prevent the appreciation of something like a poem.

And as everyone else said, sometimes relationships don't work out and you did your best.

Regardless of outcomes, your faithfulness is still virtuous. Living completely in inner truth is what you want to aim for. Sometimes that means persevering in truth over a period of time. When it doesn't work out, you have trained yourself to be faithful. The most important thing is probaly that whatever you are doing is truth for you, but without dependency on the other. There is no dependency when reciprocation is not necessary in order for you to feel loved by the simple act of doing what is true for you. I've met a person with an imaginary relationship and it keeps him focused on his creative output. It's very important to be able to maximise creative output (perhaps through your muse?) and to not overrationalise. That is because we live in the age of DALLE and artificial imagination, and you need all the entropy you can get!

Sure but if your problem is that you don’t think about your spouse enough, this might help. There’s a lot of reasons relationships fail, this seems to try to address one or more ways it can fail.

I feel the poems are more like gesture, as you say, than communication.

And yes, 400 could easily slip into the category of demonstration, that may be bothersome for the receiving end.

Pure kind words in natural form may be better.

Now you can go and turn them into a poetry book with artwork from Dall E. Sort of recycling effort.

this is probably related to the effect of different ways we perceive love. see the five love languages. we need to talk to our partners about that and try things to find out what makes them feel our love. and also tell them how we receive them.

The love languages concept is pseudoscience, just like the MBTI.

just like MBTI this is not an absolute where these types define your personality and predict your behavior that you can't escape. that of course is nonsense. but both are useful to get a better understanding about yourself, your partner and your relationship.

talking about these things with your partner works, and that helps to improve your relationship. i can confirm that from my personal experience.

I wouldn't say it's pseudoscience, it's not science at all. It's just a list of five different things which different people may value more or less.

Understanding your partner's values may not be scientific, but it is a good idea.

If you say stuff like "people communicate and reciprocate love differently", then it's neither science nor pseudoscience.

If you say stuff like "these are the five specific love languages and everyone has two", that's either science or pseudoscience, and I'll give you two guesses how rigorously tested the hypothesis is.

Can't write a best-seller framed like the first one, though! People eat scientism up.

I think it's well understood at this point that it's pretty much about giving people some shared language to talk about needs in a relationship. However, even with that, there's some contention— "words of affirmation" specifically seems to get a lot of heat.

Like, yes it's valuable to be aware of your partner and use those observations to uplift them, but it can also swing into some pretty unhealthy territory too ("when you raised that issue with me, I felt criticized, and then my words of affirmation need wasn't met any more; if you love me, you need to demonstrate that by not raising things with me") or even becoming a demand for unrealistic, toxic positivity ("I need you to be positive about/to me no matter what; I will be dependent on you for my emotional well-being, and if you're ever not positive to me, I'll become sullen and depressed and it will be your fault").

So yeah, love languages can be helpful as a starting point, but you still need guardrails in place (for example, a professional counselor) to make sure it doesn't get used in a manipulative, unhealthy, or unfair way.

> love languages concept is pseudoscience

Love is not a science.

Disclaimer: This is not an endorsement of “love languages”.

love languages are bullshit, but it is useful to know if someone doesn't like physical touch

but don't worry, I play along with that, myers briggs, astrology, angel numbers, ambiguous western spirituality, and I'm a great listener (because I'm too dumbfounded to know what to say and I don't mind being an enabler, for sex)

unlike the others, its only the myers briggs people that take their belief system seriously, since it was probably used on their job at the teambuilding retreat and in academia, but increasingly the love language people have a blind spot for it too

everyone else can just laugh about their consequence-free religions

it is possible to take these things to seriously. i didn't read the five love languages book end to end. it was enough for me to know that there are different ways to express love and that we have different preferences in what ways we notice love from others. that is the core that matters here, and is what helped me understand our relationship better.

same for MBTI. i don't know what specific MBTI type i am supposed to be, and i don't really care, but understanding the different aspects that MBTI is based on does help me understand myself better and let's me explain for example why i enjoy company some times and not at other times.

there used to be a time when astrology and astronomy where the same thing. astrology is pure nonsense, but the astronomy it is based on is not. in the same way MBTI may be nonsense, but the aspects it is based on probably are not.

to be a great listener it takes a few things, to listen, to give positive feedback and to help the other person work out what they want to say. listening itself makes up the biggest part. pretending to be a great listener may work in the short term, but someone will eventually figure out that you don't actually care about what they say.

you might be pleased then to know that the same introspective possibilities are available in astrology, and many people get that from it. It goes much deeper than a procedurally generated daily horoscope and judging someone for the month they were born in.

Guess I listen better than you might have gathered from what I wrote, I’m pretty quick on the improv and with astrology pretty much all you have to do is not call it bullshit and people are surprised and enamored that you didnt! Because they expect you (or guys) to.

regarding love languages, I’m glad you got something out of it. I gather that most people just take an online quiz or just read the categories and choose one or three. The quiz being on the website of the book author if I recall correctly.

fair point on judging your listening skills. what put me off was that you gave the impression of listening with an ulterior motive. it sounded like you are not listening because you truly care about their well being but only because it enables you to get closer to them. that feels like taking advantage of their vulnerability

everything can be used as a starting point for introspection. as long as the focus is on the introspection, that is fine, but at least things like extrovert and introvert are based on observable human behavior, but ideas drawn from astrology are divination that is completely unrelated to human qualities or experiences. anyone trying to claim more than that is either deluded or a fraud. people taking astrology seriously are a red flag for me. i would not want them as friends even, let alone a partner.

or in other words i am open to be proven wrong when it comes to character types. if someone can come up with a better explanation that completely eliminates those types, i'll be interested. but i don't for my life believe that there is any repeatable observable benefit from applying astrology, that can not also be explained as pure coincidence.

> it sounded like you are not listening because you truly care about their well being but only because it enables you to get closer to them

> people taking astrology seriously are a red flag for me. i would not want them as friends even, let alone a partner.

The only problem with me going along with these belief systems, but astrology in particular, is that its usually the tip of the iceberg of other forms of susceptibility and unsubstantiated magic, and also damage.

but if I was choosing between the MBTI person that takes themselves seriously because an MBA and their companies’ executive uses it, and the carefree astrology person that expects to be criticized, I would chose the astrology person.

so its a little column A, a little column B

people are damaged and susceptible, they replace one religion with another to “find themselves”

I’m just there

Since we're being party poopers, it's worth noting that if your relationship fails it is, by definition, because you are unattractive to your partner. If that's the case, then yes attention from an unattractive person is a major turn-off. That's hardly a great revelation, but even so that kind of common sense appears to be sorely lacking amongst many persons.

I think your use of the word attractive is wrongheaded, but if I set that aside your logic is also self contradictory. Lack of attention can cause lack of attraction, and thus attention from an “unattractive” person can cause attraction.

I think they are using the term "attraction" explicitly as a force to draw them together. If they fell apart, it was due to a lack of attraction.It isn't so much attention from an "unattractive" person can cause attraction - this appears to be very rare, but you are sure to not be attracted to anybody that you give no attention. Best bet is to first change your attractivity to your target (may or may not be possible) and then change the attention.

attraction is created through interaction. but what attracts is different for every person, and if i am attracted to someone, i need to find out what makes me attractive to them. it's not just looks or first impressions. those help to get the foot in the door, but even an initially unattractive person can become attractive as you get to know them.

could the downvoters please explain why? i am really interested, do you not believe that getting to know someone can make them more attractive? do you not believe that it is possible to misjudge someone on their first impression? what else am i missing that makes you disagree with me?

I didn't downvote, but its possible the "get a foot in the door" is coming across more coercive than you intended. It brings to mind pushy salesmen.

I think your statement is fine, if the reader interprets your statement charitably, but it could be misread.

Just a guess!

You aren't wrong, the downvote are a defense mechanism.

People can blame their inability to have a relationship on outside factors (age/genetic makeup) if physical attractiveness was set in stone and the most important thing. It's a worldview where they don't have to look at their personality or behavior critically, so its an incredibly appealing worldview to some.

that's a good point, and sadly apps like tinder just reinforce that

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