Write a note to your spouse every day
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I think this is great advice. The key is being genuine and appreciative. Take care of your neediness in other ways. If you don't know how to listen, writing lots of notes can be just another way of monopolizing the conversation. Use the note as a way to maintain the intimacy you already have.
Ps my marriage lasted happily for 37 years until the untimely death of my beloved wife.
Words are mine. My assumption is everyone means what they say. I tend to take things too literally sometimes.
It’s been hard to figure that out about each other, but once we did it’s been easier to translate our love into the language of the other person.
My point here is that people have differences in the way they operate and some day you might find the love of your life operates differently too. Keep an open mind about it and seek to understand.
This year will be my third married and my 10th being in a relationship with my wife. It’s been a tumultuous journey at times because of lack of communication.
In lieu of notes like OP mentioned, my wife and I just check in with each other every morning. And, throughout the day. She’s naturally thoughtful while I’m mostly focused on myself. We had a talk a few months ago and it was revealed that my self-centeredness was a defense mechanism I haven’t needed to deploy for at least a decade.
I could go on and on so I’ll just stop here and co-sign once more; communicate with your spouse. And then do it even more than that.
the behaviors we learn through our experience to protect ourselves are very hard to shake off. quite often we are not even aware of them or understand why. and any new partner will end up working hard trying to break through. but it looks like your partners effort and patience is starting to pay off. good luck to your continued future.
I have come to realize that I am very self centered, but I can’t quite figure out why.
I tend to get very caught up and focused on what is going on in my life and never stop to think about others. It is more that the thought never occurs to me, as opposed to me consciously prioritizing myself over others.
My wife on the other hand is very thoughtful, always checking in on others to see how they are doing. I wish I could be more like that, but would require some external override (eg setting a reminder on my phone) instead of me organically deciding to do so.
on the other hand, despite being somewhat introvert, i have no problem inviting some of those regilious types, when they come knocking at my door and having a serious conversation with them, while critically inspecting their claims. why? because that i did learn from my dad who was welcoming, open minded yet serious about his own beliefs.
My parents divorced when I was 13 or so but dual-parented. My dad was very focused on trying to get me to be more "macho" and my mom didn't seem to care much about whatever I had going on. So, I kept to myself; reading books, dreaming up inventions, sketching, &c. When college came, I found out via campus security that I did NOT have a college fund and was subsequently removed from campus. For some reason, my mom seemed angry at me for being home even though she's the one who bragged to everyone for YEARS that her kids had a college fund and never had to worry about working while focusing on education.
I'm starting to feel resentment as I recall things so I'll just say this: my feeling weren't considered when I was a child/teen, I didn't have help in early adulthood, and I was setup to fail (credit/identity theft victim, per mother). As a result, I had to learn how to live in the "real world" without a safety net and try to figure out how to forgive people because these people would never apologize (or even remember their actions).
Doing all this got me through all right. I'm self-taught, have a pretty cool job, and live relatively stress-free in a safe community with a great school district. Nearly ever day is sunny but having someone you trust that can tell you objective things about yourself is a must.
Thinking of others when you've only thought of yourself for two decades is hella difficult but not impossible. I make sure to call my grandmother at least every two weeks. I look for ways to make my wife's life easier around the house. I'm more productive in my downtime so I can make progress on my personal projects so I can be present when the family's doing something. It's a lot of work but my life has demonstrably improved.
I don’t regret what led me to the life I have now, I just wish it didn’t take as long to get here.
Not saying it’s the case. But if so, that would be an explanation that would make sense to me.
I had never considered it before that, probably due to lack of understanding of what ADD/ADHD is (when I was growing up the stereotype was high energy kids bouncing off the walls and unable to sit still and focus in class, whereas I was low energy, introverted, and had always done well in school and work so it was never a thought).
The article is certainly well-meaning but it has a bit of a "one weird trick" feel to it. It's written by a 30 year old man who has done something to improve his marriage which is great. It's anyone's guess what kind of article he's going to write when he's 60. He's on a good track, he's learned that regular communication is almost always a win, my own $0.02 is that if there's any one secret weapon, it's that.
But there are also relationships and people where there's nothing that will work, someone is just a rotten apple, or maybe the trust is irreparably damaged. I've had partners who were such supportive, caring human beings that I felt humbled - a little ashamed of my own selfishness by comparison. But I've also had partners who were clearly in it for themselves, seeing what they could milk out of me, and no amount of communication was going to change that. For the latter there was no strategy that was going to fix it - the only right path was to end it and move on.
I have been married for ~10 years. Ups and downs, but mostly happy to have chosen her. And hoping to get to 37, and past that, and live a long life together. I really hope that.
The whole idea of communicating via notes rubs me the wrong way because the only people who ever tried to do it with me were toxic, manipulative, and didn't care about me as a person. My healthy relationships communicate face-to-face.
Gestures like these amplify whatever the relationship there is to start with.
If there's a lot of love, they amplify it.
If there's a lot of lack of commitment, they amplify it.
They do not change lack of commitment into love magically.
Sorry for being the party pooper. I understand where the OP is coming from and I truly respect that. Just wanted to add a bit of more context.
Some years later I found my wife and she responds very differently. She would love a note every day. Any attention I give her is welcomed.
I hope things work out for you.
I think your statement is fine, if the reader interprets your statement charitably, but it could be misread.
Just a guess!
People can blame their inability to have a relationship on outside factors (age/genetic makeup) if physical attractiveness was set in stone and the most important thing. It's a worldview where they don't have to look at their personality or behavior critically, so its an incredibly appealing worldview to some.
talking about these things with your partner works, and that helps to improve your relationship. i can confirm that from my personal experience.
Understanding your partner's values may not be scientific, but it is a good idea.
If you say stuff like "these are the five specific love languages and everyone has two", that's either science or pseudoscience, and I'll give you two guesses how rigorously tested the hypothesis is.
Can't write a best-seller framed like the first one, though! People eat scientism up.
Like, yes it's valuable to be aware of your partner and use those observations to uplift them, but it can also swing into some pretty unhealthy territory too ("when you raised that issue with me, I felt criticized, and then my words of affirmation need wasn't met any more; if you love me, you need to demonstrate that by not raising things with me") or even becoming a demand for unrealistic, toxic positivity ("I need you to be positive about/to me no matter what; I will be dependent on you for my emotional well-being, and if you're ever not positive to me, I'll become sullen and depressed and it will be your fault").
So yeah, love languages can be helpful as a starting point, but you still need guardrails in place (for example, a professional counselor) to make sure it doesn't get used in a manipulative, unhealthy, or unfair way.
Love is not a science.
Disclaimer: This is not an endorsement of “love languages”.
but don't worry, I play along with that, myers briggs, astrology, angel numbers, ambiguous western spirituality, and I'm a great listener (because I'm too dumbfounded to know what to say and I don't mind being an enabler, for sex)
unlike the others, its only the myers briggs people that take their belief system seriously, since it was probably used on their job at the teambuilding retreat and in academia, but increasingly the love language people have a blind spot for it too
everyone else can just laugh about their consequence-free religions
same for MBTI. i don't know what specific MBTI type i am supposed to be, and i don't really care, but understanding the different aspects that MBTI is based on does help me understand myself better and let's me explain for example why i enjoy company some times and not at other times.
there used to be a time when astrology and astronomy where the same thing. astrology is pure nonsense, but the astronomy it is based on is not. in the same way MBTI may be nonsense, but the aspects it is based on probably are not.
to be a great listener it takes a few things, to listen, to give positive feedback and to help the other person work out what they want to say. listening itself makes up the biggest part. pretending to be a great listener may work in the short term, but someone will eventually figure out that you don't actually care about what they say.
Guess I listen better than you might have gathered from what I wrote, I’m pretty quick on the improv and with astrology pretty much all you have to do is not call it bullshit and people are surprised and enamored that you didnt! Because they expect you (or guys) to.
regarding love languages, I’m glad you got something out of it. I gather that most people just take an online quiz or just read the categories and choose one or three. The quiz being on the website of the book author if I recall correctly.
everything can be used as a starting point for introspection. as long as the focus is on the introspection, that is fine, but at least things like extrovert and introvert are based on observable human behavior, but ideas drawn from astrology are divination that is completely unrelated to human qualities or experiences. anyone trying to claim more than that is either deluded or a fraud. people taking astrology seriously are a red flag for me. i would not want them as friends even, let alone a partner.
or in other words i am open to be proven wrong when it comes to character types. if someone can come up with a better explanation that completely eliminates those types, i'll be interested. but i don't for my life believe that there is any repeatable observable benefit from applying astrology, that can not also be explained as pure coincidence.
> people taking astrology seriously are a red flag for me. i would not want them as friends even, let alone a partner.
The only problem with me going along with these belief systems, but astrology in particular, is that its usually the tip of the iceberg of other forms of susceptibility and unsubstantiated magic, and also damage.
but if I was choosing between the MBTI person that takes themselves seriously because an MBA and their companies’ executive uses it, and the carefree astrology person that expects to be criticized, I would chose the astrology person.
so its a little column A, a little column B
people are damaged and susceptible, they replace one religion with another to “find themselves”
I’m just there
> Though, I’ve set that expectation, and she holds me accountable to it, so I do it very often.
This is a shared ritual, which I feel is powerful in any type of relationship. You have rituals at work and with your friends. These rituals are an ingredient in the glue which give relationships meaning.
They need that shared sense of importance to work though. Other parts of the relationship should be healthy. Good communication is a must. Did she tell you that the notes made her feel guilty during this 400 day stretch? If not, then maybe communication was off.
I don't want to dunk on the act of writing poems which is perfectly fine, but that's the creation of art. If you look at how he structures his communication, there are active day-to-day issues/problems being addressed that if left unresolved prevent the appreciation of something like a poem.
And as everyone else said, sometimes relationships don't work out and you did your best.
I'm sure this was a painful lesson to learn, but I hope you took the right thing away from it.
No healthy relationship is going to include 400 daily poems. It makes it seem like the subject of the poems is being put on a pedestal and idealized, not perceived as a real person with flaws.
It comes across as obsessive and, perhaps, insincere -- how can someone have 400 poems' worth of feelings for someone they've known for less than 2 years? And if they don't have those sincere feelings, what are they trying to accomplish?
Read a little bit about "love bombing" (not because I think you love-bombed anyone, but because it might help you understand how the recipient of this behavior might feel about it).
A bold and absolutist claim. The GPs relationship was clearly not healthy, but the idea that no healthy relationship could exist where there is a daily poem is kinda ridiculous?
If you've written 400 daily poems and it doesn't seem to be having a positive effect, then it's certainly time to stop. If it's going well, then fair enough, you do you.
I'd probably say stop at around 7 if not positive, because then it is just a weird week long gimmick...
Watching it as a kid made me think it was a heartwarming ending to the movie, but the older I get the creepier it gets. It is essentially a hostage situation if you think about it.
Anyways, not saying this is what OP did, but I guess it's an example of how seemingly sweet and well intentioned actions can also be overbearing. I can't say I would enjoy having someone write me poems for 400 days straight.
I think you're missing some perspective here. You make it sound like you were the one really trying, and your partner is the one who was weird for not "getting it".
I would honestly be pretty freaked out if my partner wrote me daily poems for 400 days. It would come off as very needy and obsessive, and if it continued after me bringing it up, I could see it as a reason to break things off.
Of course some people might really like daily poems. But from what you wrote, it sounds a little like you've failed to read the room, and are now blaming others for that.
Same. Occasional poem? I'm not necessarily a fan, but it is thoughtful and boy, does that thoughtfulness go a long way. But daily is intense, and I'd much rather daily communication to be fairly direct and daily thoughtfulness being small things that are optional but nice (making me a cup of coffee when I'm groggily heading to the toilet in the morning, for example).
"I was in a relationship for 2 years and have written a poem every day for 400 days straight to her."
2 years is a lot more than 400 days. Maybe the relationship failed because they stopped.
> In fact, I was told by her that these notes put her in guilt.
No healthy relationship has one partner who cares so little about the other's feelings that they do something 400 times without finding out if it's welcome or not.
Imagine having to keep to yourself that you're not really into poems but your partner is doing this. It'd be heartbreaking to piss in those cheerios but how long could you keep it up?
Personally I'd have had to say enough with the poems already at day 6 or so
But paying attention to people when you give them something is very important. People are different. You may cringe at poems, but I love them. I brought one that someone else wrote for me on my first date with my now wife. We talked about getting married on our first date it went so well.
So I guess what I'm also trying to get at here is that your contribution of your opinion to the conversation may be valid, but it's more kind if it's not so universal as to be judgemental, since mamoriamohit may take it quite personally even though there is a kernel of useful information in what you're saying.
Why would you bring a poem someone wrote you to a first date?
I described how I felt about the person I was about to go on a date with, but told the poet not to write directly about my date, but to use it as inspiration for a story of some kind.
I can't really describe how I knew it would go over well, but I knew it would. I try to tailor gifts to the person I'm dating, and I wasn't the type to usually bring something to a first date, but we had a ton of chemistry and I wanted to show how interested I was.
And I see the confusion about my previous response.
And yes, 400 could easily slip into the category of demonstration, that may be bothersome for the receiving end.
Pure kind words in natural form may be better.
This isn't really context it's more a subjective and singular viewpoint from somebody who's relationship failed and perhaps was always going to fail regardless of the poems.
Not trying to be horrible here...just pointing out that this is not context.
While there may be some people like you enjoying maxed up romantic relationships I would run away in no time from a partner just trying to hard. Imagine getting home everyday to be greeted with a "gift of a day", 10 bullet points in refined calligraphy how much he/she loves me, new scent, yet another laborious make up etc.
Most of us will never be able to match that, be it because of no time/energy or a simple "let me rest after work, read a book/go for a walk". Relationship imho is not an attempt to create a Siamese twins in a mental space. Satisfy the needs of your partner, top it with extra stuff, but do not try to kill it drowning him/her in a waterfall of attention, gifts, questions about everything, etc.
this is part of the problem though. the expectation that the contributions to our relationship should somehow be equal. yes, both partners should contribute something, and it is possible that one (or both) of the partners are not contributing enough, but wanting to limit my partners contributions because i can't keep up is a problem in itself. the proper response is to talk about it, to share how these poems or whatever it is, make you feel. and come to an understanding that both can work with. the most important thing to do is to listen what the partner has to say, and how they feel. as with all these things, it comes down to communication.
She used to love baking, and would bring round cakes/pastries/bread for us all the time.
It was really nice at first, but also made us feel very awkward/bad that we didn't reciprocate (neither of us really cook much), even though we'd never asked for the cakes.
Eventually we had to ask her to stop, since we just didn't want to eat that much unhealthy food. She took it as a bit of an insult, and ended up being a lot colder to us after that.
It was a shame, but I'm not sure what else we could have done - she was giving us something unasked for (which we felt burdened by, even though she said she never expected anything in return), and got upset when we asked her to stop.
We appreciated the thought, but she would bring so many toys for our daughter it was overwhelming and we didn’t Have that much space.
It was clearly more for my mom than for us, she just likes to give.
So I reciprocated by saying thanks and promptly throwing/donating something older. This allowed my mom to keep giving and us to not have the clutter.
I’m glad to confirm what I already knew by your story. It would have hurt her and damaged our relationship if I would have asked her to stop.
Anyway, after seeing the relationship futility of resisting the unwanted gifts too persistently, I now just give some approximation of a warm thank-you, then donate the items to a charity shop.
Cycle of life.
I've always been very uncomfortable about being in debt to anyone for anything unasked for, that just seems manipulative to me.
I've not read David Graber's book though, added to my (evergrowing...) reading list, thanks.
If you have an issue with your communication to your partner (either in not producing it consistently or not feeling that it's received consistently), changing it up to something you can generate (and/or your partner can receive in the intended spirit), building a habit that changes up your communication can help. On the other hand, if that habit makes your partner feel inundated, overwhelmed, or drowns out their communication to you, it can make things worse.
"Here’s a general outline of what I write:
"Gratitude (for her, her hard work, her amazing looks, etc.)
"What I’m working on today.
"What I’m working towards (goals, deadlines, etc.)
"Anything I’m excited about.
"Anything that’s bothering me (stress, anxiety, pessimism, etc.)
"Ideas that I have (parenting, fixing the home, work related, etc.)
"Transactional stuff (finances, things I need to take care of, stuff I need to remember, etc.)
"Questions (are there any events coming up, are we doing a date night this week, etc.)
"Gratitude (for the life we have, the things we have, the time we have, the kids we have, etc.)
"I don’t write every section every day, but those are the general categories I usually fall into. The note usually takes me just shy of a half-hour if I’m not distracted."
The notes are quite thoughtful: many of these points sound sweet, and several of the prompts could still work for people who aren't in a relationship. The appreciation shown, and the self-reflection, likely both strengthen the relationship.
It doesn't have to work for everyone to be useful.
Also, I feel like far too many people have "holywood" views on what marriage is.
like in karate kid, "wax on, wax off" is not about the wax.
but, you're right, marriage isn't for everyone. but i also don't think TFA is trying to convince everyone to get married.
This all made sense when you had a man working and a woman at home looking after the house and kids, but in a modern society where both work and responsibilities are mostly shared, it doesn't make sense that the person who earned the most is now at huge risk despite the relationship not reducing the others earning potential in any way. This risk is a real discouragement to even enter a relationship. You might be open to the emotional risk of things not working out but not be willing to put your house and future income on the line.
> In most countries you are exposed to this risk even if you don't marry as you automatically enter a de facto which is pretty legally similar to a full marriage.
From only being in a relationship or from living together, spending together, having kids together? I'm pretty sure there is no such thing in the EU country I reside in.
Relationships aren't for everyone, especially when thinking about relationships like a business
A lot of people complain this is the wrong way to view marriage. That's only true if you're on relatively equal financial footing with your spouse. Any successful person has the right to structure their marriage such that there is no compelling financial incentive for their spouse to divorce them (and that too on top of a base divorce rate of ~50%). Only a fool would do anything short of make their marriage bulletproof in a situation of unusual spousal wealth asymmetry [1].
[0] https://www.nzherald.co.nz/entertainment/seven-celebrities-w...
[1] https://www.elle.com/culture/celebrities/a26570850/justin-bi...
> And then move to Texas for the cap on child support orders
I'd rather stay single than move to Texas because of a possible divorce. This is possibly the weirdest way to view a marriage I've ever come about
The beauty of the divorce racket is that victims usually don't understand the enormity of the financial pain involved until it's too late. Anyone who's observed a friend go through such a divorce would be wise enough to not make that mistake.
As for moving to Texas, you can choose not to and just accept that a judge may order unconscionable amounts of child support to vindictively undermine your prenup (this is routine in states like California). I'm not making the recommendation to go to Texas lightly. The divorce game has gone through many rounds of evolution over many decades and is now almost perfectly calibrated to deprive the successful of their wealth.
Personally, I'd rather just live in Austin. It's a fine city.
I also don't believe in rolling the dice on marriage without protection. It's way too irrational to assume you'll beat the 1 in 2 odds.
If you think you need a prenup, you probably shouldn't get married.
The alimony issue happens when you look for stay at home wife have stay at home wife for yours and that marriage breaks. Incidentally, those women tend to be more afraid to leave even if marriage is bad while employed women are more likely to initiate divorce - cause they are more confident of their ability to be single.
If writing a note each day is too much work for you, then the daily sacrifices of being in a loving marriage may be too much for you. If that is the case you might want to think about what you're giving up and why. If you are happy with the exchange then great but I think many don't know how great it can be.
If I started writing literal daily notes to my wife, she’d be very concerned something was wrong. Then she’d ask why I’m wasting my time writing a note when I could have done… literally annoying else more productive lol
I've found this to simply mean that you enjoy the work you put in. Gamers can spend hours getting good at a game. Few would call it practice, they'd call it play. However, whatever you call it you need it to get good.
Whatever that thing is that you put into a relationship, it's needed.
This is where it takes work. You have to accept the fact every day this is your partner, you have to wrestle with thoughts of perhaps coming across an actual ideal partner some day. You have to learn to love your partner, and do things to make them happy, not necessarily things you want to do.
Because the alternative is to just be single and die alone surrounded by no one, childless in some nursing home where nurses increasingly don’t give a fuck about you the closer you are to death.
Some people will argue being single isn’t so bad. But for a person whose goal it is to be married and share life with someone it can be a fate worse than death. And the longer it takes to get married the more of your life you are living without sharing experiences with anyone that matters to you.
> This is where it takes work. You have to accept the fact every day this is your partner, you have to wrestle with thoughts of perhaps coming across an actual ideal partner some day. You have to learn to love your partner, and do things to make them happy, not necessarily things you want to do
If this is actually your personal experience, could you share more of it?
I've always ended up dating women who absolutely love me but who I am somewhat ambivalent to after a few weeks. Most of life already feels like work to me, was hoping a romantic relationship wouldn't. But I've thought often of throwing in the towel and settling for the next sane one even if I'm bored. Because wife + kids sounds long term better than fun uncle who ultimately dies alone.
for your problem, i would want to look closely what it is that makes you feel ambivalent after a few weeks. try giving it more time to see if you still feel like that. get to know each other better, plan your potential future life together to get an understanding what each of you want from a relationship. love alone is not enough.
what i found helpful is to not focus on romantic dates but join group activities where there is no pressure to interact directly. your friends and her friends or even some other group that you both join for some activity. there is still plenty of opportunity to get to know each other that way, because you will see how each of you act around other people.
For some people it isn't until it is. There are many things that can break a great relationship. Routine, lack of common projects, financial difficulties, personal struggle of one or both.
It has been 16 years and somehow head to pillow every night still brings a smile to my face for this amazing woman being the love of my life.
What is the reward?
It's not what's going to save marriages on it's own, because it is useful in a specific environment.
When I'm away for work, I always make time to call family morning and evening, so we can keep up with our wake up togheter and spend evening togheter kinda routine. It is both specific to the situation, the family and the context. It'd be silly to call home when I'm home, as it'd be silly to say that this will save someone else marriage.
Heck, marriage doesn't even mean the same thing to different people or has the same meaning across cultures or even within the same culture across time!
Normative approaches to marriage are almost always doomed to fail precisely because of this, and that's also why counseling is largely a personalized process/experience.
But it turns out that marriage is really just a partnership and relationship, and all different kinds of people have different styles and interpretations of what that is and how it works for them. Some people need a lot of passion, some people need a lot of stability, some may need both, or neither.
But there is definitely something to the notion that good relationships don't come easy. People are all flawed in different ways, and sometimes people need help to work through those flaws in order to have successful relationships. Plus, a marriage may involve some long term expensive investments, like a mortgage, pets, children. So "saving your marriage" might actually be quite a rational and emotionally intelligent act, if all partners are amenable to it. Best-case scenario: you end up with a long-term loving partnership and a wonderful life; worst-case, you don't. Seems like it's worth saving?
I want to work to not have to work anymore. I can’t think about a partner because I’m too dead from work to give someone else the commitment they might deserve. Don’t want kids that sounds like work. Nothing is wrong with me just want to be able to relax without commitment.
For quite a long time this was a very obvious and common sense statement. That is literally the traditional view of the Catholic Church on marriage, for example.
Things changed only very recently.
Can you elaborate on that? Living as an unmarried couple is not very catholic AFAICT, and when not in a relationship, how should you marry?
I've heard there was a time, ~2000 years ago, when people thought the second coming of christ was so close they were only being asked to be celibate for a year or two, and marriage was only there for people who couldn't manage that.
[1] https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians...
Having sex outside of marriage (and, for pleasure only) is of course wrong.
As is using contraceptives; as that moves sex to just pleasure.
In my (entirely anecdotal) observation, boomers were the last generation to be raised with social pressure to appear to be religious, in communities where Catholic traditions and the Church were a central and reasonably respected part of life. They got married relatively young, baptized their kids and maybe sent them to Catholic schools all to keep their own parents happy, but didn't pressure their kids in the same way.
As the boomers got to middle age and figured out their own way to live, they dropped the pretence. In parallel, the church largely retreated from public life, education, politics, healthcare etc.
It's easy to blame this on the Church or the boomers but it's part of a wider trend of community and common institutions losing their hold. People move further away from family, have less friends, participation in community activities is down across the board, the self-sufficient nuclear family has been pushed as the ideal since the 50s and cultural gatekeeping or telling someone what to do in their own home is the biggest sin.
It's all a trade-off for getting rid of some of the genuinely more awful parts of the pre-war era.
“And if your right hand should be your downfall, cut it off and throw it away; for it will do you less harm to lose one part of yourself than to have your whole body go to hell.”
The person you’d most love to raise a family with (or run a fishing boat with, or whatever), isn’t necessarily the “easy” partner whose super cozy and gets you all the time and never needs you to make a special effort beyond what comes naturally.
But at some point, if it’s what you want to do, you pick a partner for what’s important to you and make good on that choice. Depending on who you are and who you picked, that latter bit of “making good” might benefit from a few contrived gestures and rituals that wouldn’t have been necessary in some other “easy” relationship. But that doesn’t mean it’s the wrong relationship or an unhealthy relationship, it’s just your relationship; and if those things make it better, why wouldn’t you do them?
I see quite a lot of elderly people with health problems. The ones that are completely alone… it’s a pretty wretched existence, frankly. That’s the reality. Not to say all marriages are great obviously, but often even an ex-husband is better than no husband at all.
When they push forward as social animals with no social support network and things eventually take their toll (age/entropy/etc) they will fall back on someone else’s marriage for help - their parents or siblings.
I say this as a late 30’s person with no marriage. I thought I had one and it didn’t work out unfortunately. Now it’s just me and I am in true shit if really anything remotely severe goes wrong.
>there’s not a lot of time for communication with my wife. We’re on the go from sun-up to sun-down, and at the end of the day we drop into bed exhausted to get just enough sleep for the next day.
Oh boy. That sounds awful.
Rather than trying to work around that busyness, personally I would go out of my way to just not have that. Maybe I'm naive, but I want to be continuously moving towards being less busy and having more time for my family. Actual time, disposable time. Not time-compressed, high-information-density notes.
Of course, to each their own.
However I suspect this is less about time management and more about communication styles: this person is a writer. They communicate better when writing.
who do you optimize for the old man or the current man
Being a good husband or father is not something that is a given. This is especially true in the asymmetric situation where one parent stays at home. Good for you for finding meaningful ways to be there for your partner and sharing it.
Sharing our experiences for what works helps us all be better! If this post even helps one other dad be a better father and husband, the world is immeasurably improved.
... it also made me think about one of the interesting balances I have to strike in our evening conversations, where I need to remember to stop rambling about technical details of work I'm excited to tell her about but are selfish to monopolize the conversation with (even though I know she does want to hear sometimes). The idea of transferring aspect of conversation to writing is very interesting, and seems like a good opportunity for self examination on my part to be a better spouse.
Anyway, thank you for writing!
Looks more like a symptom of fatigue or emotional discomfort to me if you don’t want to talk to your spouse. I would start looking Into that before I would fire off random text book romantic gestures to “save my marriage”.
I think this is great, Jordan found something new and novel to reconnect and it worked. Who cares what it is if it worked. Shows affections.
People are different, what makes she happy would be weird for your spouse maybe.
I like it.
in that case, doing something to break out of that and increase communication again sounds like the right step.
For people raising kids together, the relationship can often become dominated by the practical partnership of family-rearing because it’s so consuming. You do that parenting thing all the time and you love your partner for what they add to it and that feels like plenty. That project becomes so fundamental and sufficient that a lot of other parts of the relationship can quietly fade even while the relationship as a whole is very strong.
Consciously investing in sharing (or romance, or sex, or travel, or career encouragement, or business partnership, or whatever) can help revive and sustain the multidimensionality of the relationship, and keep it strong and richly satisfying as various other parts wax and wane.
Of course, you can also just have a great relationship that rides a “no (conscious) effort” vibe and it can be a long and exciting and rich relationship too. It’s not like there are rules.
There’s just no reason to question the OP’s relationship just on the grounds of them choosing to put in some extra effort.
Sounds like hell; is this the American Dream?
"As human beings, our primary mission in life is to be fruitful and multiply, and take dominion over the earth. If that sounds like Bible talk, it is. This is the creed God gave to Adam and Eve. Genesis 1:28.
That’s our responsibility as human beings."
Also none of this sounds at all Christian.
That sounds like a great life to me. Not a lot of people get the opportunity, and not very many people can pull it off. I'm sure life will be more relaxed when the kids leave the home after become adults, too.
Is that company that important?
Did we loose the ability to get enough to live and we live to get enough instead?
If he doesn’t want his children to starve then yeah working is important.
I guess if that interferes with your immediate hedonistic needs you would just get rid of the children? Maybe just dump them on someone else whose time is less self-importantly valuable?
It's the same with running a startup. You make the choice to commit, you follow through, and in the long run you reap the rewards and live a fuller, better life.
miserable
The fact that he needs a servant-wife to be able to support his career is a red flag. Having so many children and spending so much time working also means he can't have meaningful relationships with all of them.
And how could you call someone a "servant-wife" just for choosing to be a stay-at-home mother? In what universe is that not completely disrespectful to people who choose to be stay-at-home mothers? You are calling a person a "servant" for being a mother and denying her agency by defining her only in relation to her spouse.
By this implication, the opposite of a "servant-wife" is a "working-wife," and it's shocking that you can't define a person independently of a spouse within this framework. The term "mother" doesn't do this, but better yet, it's best to skip negatively judging strangers entirely.
As well say he’s the servant, working long hours while she gets to enjoy closer relationships with their children.
I do think it's kinda weird to write his wife a daily note -- presumably it takes him 15-30 minutes to write the note. Why not spend that time talking face-to-face with her instead? For me and my wife (I'm in a similar stage of life) we cherish that ~30 minutes before bed to have a cup of tea, regroup, chat about the kind of things he writes in his note, and so on.
Though he did say that writing the notes has helped their relationship, and they now "talk more than ever (weird, right?)". So if it's working for him, keep it up!
Well I love my kids but I still think in retrospect that it was a shitty decision to have kids. Things aren't mutually exclusive.
Having said that I am not saying anyone ought to regret having kids or that it is a shitty decision for everyone.
The single parents of toddlers working multiple jobs either pay for childcare or have whole network of familly members to help them. There is no way around the fact that toddler needs supervision incompatible with most of work.
Also, most grandparents in fact are in working age when the grandkids are small. Some are sick, some never returned to work after kids grew, but quote a few always worked or returned to work. And even with those who are at home, asking them for daily babysitting of 4 kids is quite a lot.
There is an ancient Greek saying: Not working is the root of all evil.
Wiktionary [2] refers to St. Jerome
> Proverbs 16:27 may have inspired St. Jerome to write in the late 4th century: fac et aliquid operis, ut semper te diabolus inveniat occupatum, or “engage in some occupation, so that the devil may always find you busy.” This was later repeated by Chaucer in the Canterbury Tales, which was probably the source of its popularity.
[1] https://naob.no/ordbok/lediggang
[2] https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/idle_hands_are_the_devil%27...
With 4 children ... I can't even conceive how that would be. I would probably love them to death but would consider escaping into the wildness every night.
We (family with two kids under the age of 4) just moved to Texas, been in there ER once, urgent care twice, had stomach flu, ear infection, viral rash, a flat tire, water damage in the house we bought resulting in lots of money flying out the window and a scramble to find temp housing.
All in the past two weeks.
It’s pure hell to the point you laugh instead of cry.
For example, yesterday our kids got into daycare which meant the only thing my wife and I had to do was work. We could finally get a few hours of focus. Not thirty minutes into work the house cleaners I had forgotten about showed up to start cleaning.
Sometimes life seems nonstop.
But when my three year old gives me a kiss on the cheek or my one year old just wanted me to hold him, my world stops for just a moment and I realize how lucky we’ve been to even get to this point.
I guess I’m happy in hell.
Either that or there's multiple multiple births.
If their religion demands they have so many kids so quickly it's unlikely he helps out with the childrearing activities and leaves it to his wife, I'm which case his life is probably not very different than a childless man.
4 kids 6 and younger is one child every two years. My youngest is 6 months. It's an aggressive pace but hardly unreasonable.
We wanted to have all of our kids together so they could be friends. And it makes the parenting window much shorter (25 years until they are all adults and moving out). Some people spread their kids out and have kids in the home for 30-35 years.
However here, not knowing any party, from absolutely fly-over perspective feels like (marital) tragedy waiting to happen.
Young (30), working asses off either at work or with 4 young kids, only one person providing, lack of intimacy and something that could be called weekly report instead of partner communicating.
Even this piece feels forced. Maybe it’s me but exposing personal relationship strategy feels like boasting about win, and when relationships becomes a field for wins it doesn’t bode well.
I still don’t know them and know nada, that might work perfectly well, but that’s definitely not something I’d go with for general life advice.
Yet, what I've really missed is the spouse feedback.
The writing focused on "his" expectations and "his" conclusions.
I'm not underestimating this.
Though it would be nice to write this as a duo or share a separate post by your spouse.
Combining "morning" and "fresh" in one sentence sounds like an oxymoron to me.
Are we talking about a post-it note? Are the notes in a physical notebook? Is this done via some sort of mobile app? On a WhatsApp message, perhaps?
I know it will be different for everyone, probably, but I think it is important to know one that is already working for someone.
A newsletter for one could sound exciting.
i am waiting so much........
Physical notes are fine but it feels less natural.
Also, “absence makes the heart grow fonder” is a real thing.
So very bad advice if it’s just one way. That’s actually si*p behavior.
Very good advice if it’s symmetrical.
start here https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31713720 and maybe here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29100862
online dating can work, but only if both partners are open to a serious conversation of your respective expectations from a relationship. or of you both accept that building a relationship takes time to get to know each other.
Note to author: please for fuck sake, stop with the false click bait promises. “I wrote a note every day” … then … “Ok, that’s a lie; it’s on weekdays and not everyday”… what the hell? You do you you’re writing and not speaking right? ie. go back and edit your text if you’ve lied, otherwise it’s just clickbait.
If you say things enough, you come to believe in them and act to make them true. Even if you wrote such notes every day, and never gave them to your partner, the act of writing them changes you. Perhaps, even, into a better partner.
In the context of this thread, gratitude stands for expressing what you appreciate about your relationship with another.
Do you see the problem here? If you like a flower, do you feel the need to thank it? No, right? A flower does what flowers do. So what's different about this scenario? The difference is you're using expression of gratitude as a tactic to manipulate.
If you're thinking, yeah, great idea, everyone manipulates, so what, you're a sociopath :)
As for the way you're using the word gratitude, to mean 'thanks' - sure, social norms dictate acknowledging other human beings in various ways - that's not what this thread is about.
ugh, no, the difference is that your partner is a human being that can't read minds. if you expect them to know that you are grateful without expressing it then that may seriously hurt your relationship.
i'd rather think that if you believe that everyone expressing gratitude is manipulative then that makes you the sociopath.
The last time I heard this metaphor was in the context of avoiding too much flattery or dependence on praise of others. So, a well-adjusted person does things because they want to, or a have a responsibility to, without relying too much on praise.
I think this framing is useful for a person too reliant on others' opinions for happiness, but even within this framework, you can still feel happy when others appreciate you (while not reliant on the emotion). So, it's still a positive to give and receive gratitude, so long as both people have a stable sense of self and aren't reliant on gratitude for happiness.
If the flower could hear you, it would like to hear that it made you feel good. Flowers can't hear, but people can.
Gratitude is when others do things you appreciate, that are generous, for your benefit, roughly speaking.
What about when others do things you appreciate, that are generous, to others, but not you?
What do we call that?
Get it? The key ingredient is who gets the goodies? That's what narcissism is, preoccupation with what I'm getting in relation to others. You can't get feelings of gratitude without being preoccupied with comparing yourself to others or your past self first :)
You can get just feeling warm and fuzzy, sharing a cup of tea in the morning, and I'm all for that. Because it doesn't involve intellectualizing your place in the social dominance hierarchy (comparison to others) or 'the world' (comparison to past self), and getting feelings from the conclusion you reach.
Hope that clarifies it a bit :)
feeling gratitude is not at all narcissistic.
Narcissism is an excessive interest in one's physical appearance or image, and an excessive preoccupation with one's own needs. It is excessive self-interest, not any self-interest at all.
Example 1: Self-preservation is the interest in preserving the self over others. But it is not narcissism to consider what you need to keep yourself alive and healthy, before you consider others' welfare. It would be narcissism if somebody was drowning and you first needed to look at your reflection in the water before you tried to save them.
Example 2: If you say "I want you to know that I really enjoyed those cookies you gave me," you are considering your own self-interest, but only in the context of trying to communicate a feeling of joy to the other party with the intent of causing them joy (that they gave you joy). In that case your interest was actually in the other party, not yourself, even if the origin of the act came from a reflection of your own pleasure. On the other hand, it would be narcissism to go on a 30 minute rant of how exactly you want cookies to be made that the other party never asked for.
Example 3: Thinking "I am not currently on fire" and being happy about that is a reflection on one's desires, but not an excessive one. On the other hand, sitting for 30 minutes just wallowing in the feeling of your superiority for not being on fire, or telling other people how great it is that you're not on fire [when nobody asked], would probably border on narcissism. It would definitely be narcissism to tell a burn victim that you are happy you are not on fire.
Also:
> What about when others do things you appreciate, that are generous, to others, but not you? What do we call that?
Doing a good deed? Compersion? Joy? Compassion? Sympathy? Mudita? Mitfreude? What were you trying to imply it was?
This is incorrect. You have a definition error.
GRAT'ITUDE, noun [Latin gratitudo, from gratus, pleasing. See Grace.]
An emotion of the heart, excited by a favor or benefit received; a sentiment of kindness or good will towards a benefactor; thankfulness. gratitude is an agreeable emotion, consisting in or accompanied with good will to a benefactor, and a disposition to make a suitable return of benefits or services, or when no return can be made, with a desire to see the benefactor prosperous and happy. gratitude is a virtue of the highest excellence, as it implies a feeling and generous heart, and a proper sense of duty.
KINDNESS, noun [from kind, the adjective.]
1. Good will; benevolence; that temper or disposition which delights in contributing to the happiness of others, which is exercised cheerfully in gratifying their wishes, supplying their wants or alleviating their distresses; benignity of nature. kindness ever accompanies love.
There is no man whose kindness we may not sometime want, or by whose malice we may not sometime suffer.
2. Act of good will; beneficence; any act of benevolence which promotes the happiness or welfare of others. Charity, hospitality, attentions to the wants of others, etc., are deemed acts of kindness or kindnesses
NARCISSISM, noun
An exceptional interest in and admiration for yourself.
----
There's an important word in that definition of narcissism: "exceptional." Showing gratitude cannot constitute narcissism as such.
Please stop trying to redefine words.
I am however going to concede and withdraw my further participation on the matter.
You may find this interesting: https://philosophyforchange.wordpress.com/2014/03/11/meaning...
that's not the point. you can redefine gratitude all you want. but then your use of of the word gratitude no longer applies to the feeling i want to express when someone gives me something.
in other words: your redefinition of the word gratitude to imply narcissism does not make my expression of gratitude narcissistic.
we are talking about observable human behavior here, not about word definitions. if you believe that expressing gratitude is narcissistic then you have a problem. (and if you believe that the definition of a word changes the meaning of an act, then you have two problems)