People like you, who think that mental illness which is every bit as real as a broken arm is "imaginary" just because you can't see anything wrong, are one of the very worst parts of human society. You are part of the reason, probably the main reason, life is so hard for the mentally ill.
I really shouldn't have to explain this to you, as a great deal has been written on the subject in the past several decades. I beg of you, as a sometime depression sufferer, please go read up on this. Your ignorance hurts humanity.
If you are not ignorant, but simply unwilling to educate yourself, then please take your insane ideology back to the Dark Ages where it belongs.
sorry, man, you've just produced non sequtuir as i never said that mental illnesses are "imaginary".
I said that the statement - "if suicide then necessarily mental illness" - is false in my view. Such statement being false doesn't necessarily means that mental illnesses are imaginary nor that some suicides are result of real mental illnesses.
As it stands, you both have about the same amount of rationality in your argument while Cushman certainly has the numbers on his side - Mental Illness certainly is the leading cause of suicide:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide#Risk_factors
"Clinical studies have shown that underlying mental disorders are present in 87% to 98% of suicides"
So I think Cushman is right - there is no use for your argument in this discussion and all that stands is a misunderstanding about your choice of words on "imaginary" (which I understood the same way that Cushman did - you clearly didn't choose your words wisely there and were bound to be misunderstood).
That statistic presents a somewhat circular logic, with drug abuse (mainly alcohol) and mood disorders (depression: uni-/bi-polar) making up the bulk of the 'mental disorders' figure (FTA). Since feelings of worthlessness and suicidal thoughts are used to diagnose depressive disorders in the first place and since drug abuse is acknowledged to often be a form of self-medication for undiagnosed depression, blaming 'mental disorders' clearly begs the question in a large number of cases.
The literature shows that environmental factors play a major role in causing and aggravating these illnesses and behaviours. I believe this is the point that VladRussian was making and it's not so easily dismissed with 'numbers'. Likewise, the very large proportion of suicides which come after a clinical diagnosis (and presumably some kind of treatment) doesn't inspire much faith in the 'just go and get yourself sorted out' line of advice.
I find it disturbing that in a discussion on this topic, someone advocating being kinder to people in general, and perhaps certain people in particular, would be subjected to the kind of insults that Cushman has used.
I think both sides are projecting their own view a little too hard on this.
Environmental factors surely are a factor in this and I was 'quoting numbers' because VladRussian was a little to quick to dismiss mental illness. Again - since we all don't know the details in this particular case, this is an abstract discussion about suicide. In an abstract discussion, you either make a case and discuss it, or you discuss one that another person has made. VladRussian simply picked a fight and Cushman bought into it.
Also, re: circular logic. I don't think it is circular - Suicidal thoughts may be a symptom of depression, but that's not the same as saying they are a cause of depression. I know you don't say that either, but that's what would make it circular. (Also: saying it's 'somewhat circular' is a cop-out - it either is, or isn't circular.) I further don't think mental disorders really are "blamed" for suicide, they are simply accepted as a very common pathway in medical studies.
Here is what would be a perfectly circular argument:
Somebody commits suicide. Society looks for a reason of that suicide. They figure out that the person was depressed. But why was he depressed? Turns out, he was suicidal.
But that's not what is being argued:
Somebody is depressed. So much depressed, that the person has suicidal thoughts. The person commits suicide. Society correctly assesses that his depression was the main cause in committing suicide. This is apparent, because it was in depression that suicidal thoughts appeared.
So you are dismissing the idea that Ilya was depressed. Yet, claim that there was terrible suffering and hell going on. Ok, I don't know what was happening in this life, but I will just guess that it is highly unlikely that famine, torture, physical, sexual or moral abuse was taking place, at least the kind were most people would agree that suicide was an obvious rational choice.
There is nothing shameful, imaginary, or about depression. Just like there is nothing shameful or imaginary about getting the flu.
no, i'm dismissing the idea that suicide necessarily means a mental illness.
If the person is rational then problems can only be one of two kinds: situational (e.g. my life sucks because I owe more money than I stand to earn in 3 lifetimes) and health-related. The rational stance to the first kind would be to do as I suggest above. Obviously, in the second case escaping won't change anything so suicide could be a rational choice.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1341504/pdf/bmjc...