CNN Reports Diaspora's Ilya Zhitomirskiy Committed Suicide
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I didn't know Ilya well, but I did know him. I wish I had known that he was in a bad situation personally that led to this. I wish I could have helped. My last trip to SF in September was really busy and I didn't get to hang out with him. He even offerred me his couch to crash on, but I didn't take him up on the offer.
We meant to do some pair programming back in July, but things got busy and I didn't followup on the invitation. He invited me to an awesome party in April, but I didn't end up going as I'd needed to fly from Ohio there, but I can't help wishing that I'd done it anyway.
So I just feel terrible frankly that I mistakenly turned down interacting with him. Would have we had some conversation that would have changed his opinion on things? Given him some new hope?
Clearly, I know this isn't anyone's fault, but in retrospect its hard not to wish that anyone was able to do more.
I suppose the only thing to do in the future is to always prioritize time with people as the #1 thing. In retrospect, nothing else I could have been doing was more important.
This is a very human reaction, but please don't let yourself get hung up on this line of thinking. Heroic intervention is something we tend to overestimate. What you can do is to be there for the people you know well. When someone's hurting, be generous with your time; be someone they can turn to. If you ever think someone's at risk, know what to look for and know where to turn.
Your no's were part of the feedback loop, you couldnt have known the magnitude of what was happening, but your actions are part of his decision. Healing from this will take honesty, you can delude others but not yourself.
You are a part of it, but it wasn't your responsibility.
You show a fundamental ignorance of human psychology and the effects of depression on an otherwise healthy mind.
It's a fundamentally anti-scientific thing to do.
There's too little skepticism surrounding psychology, no mathematical model that can make predictions and the scientific method is not employed.
I take his post simply as a hypothesis based on an opinion and nothing else. Expressing skepticism to the hypothesis is healthy, and justified, but not expressing skepticism to the current state of affairs is not healthy and unjustified.
I feel there's no need to downvote the guy for simply stating a non mainstream opinion. So far, opinions is all what we have in the field anyway.
There are selective pressures on societies, but they are utterly and completely dwarfed by the individual selective pressures. Whenever there is any sort of conflict between societal selection and individual selection, evolution will not give the former any say.
The reason is that it takes many many generations for any genetic makeup to actually destroy societies as a whole, and it is an extremely rare event. Genetic selection based on individual success happens all the time.
I suspect that the genetic components of suicide are side effects from the various genes that help make us smart.
Genes are selfish -- they help society only insofar as it helps the individual. They will never choose society's benefit over the individual's.
One copy of the sickle cell gene confers a tremendous advantage: great resistance to malaria. Two copies of the gene kills the unfortunate person fairly quickly in the absence of modern medicine. There's no advantage to suffering from sickle cell disease, but there's enough of an advantage to other people that the gene persisted and even flourished in some populations.
Suicide could be similar. There are probably a bunch of genes which coordinate to work on our brains, and are generally advantageous. I speculate that in certain combinations, these genes contribute mental illnesses, including depression and tendency toward suicide. This doesn't get selected out, because those genes in other combinations are still highly advantageous.
There are many nuances that my statements in previous comments gloss over and which make them incorrect.
My point is that "societal selection" of genes is rare and virtually completely insignificant.
Do our words have an effect on others? I think most intelligent ppl would say yes, even if the effect is small. I mean, you can't have your cake and eat it too... so the parent is absolutely right.
When you are depressed, small things that may seem trivial like not answering a phone call, responding to an email, etc becomes a big deal as they pile up.. little by little, depressed people lose faith in both humanity, and themselves. It's very easy and convenient to say we don't have time, and very very very easy to say "talk to me when you're in trouble", but extremely hard to actually walk the walk in our busy, occupied lives
Remember that people's emotions are not trivial problems that you can solve if you just spend enough time working on them. The tech culture is particularly toxic, in my opinion, for people suffering from depression. Depression is not something you can sit down and hammer out a solution to over a weekend. It grabs hold of people and doesn't let go. It takes years of professional help (from people who actually understand human emotions and psychology) and the will to get better.
Please don't think about this too hard, because you can get caught up in all of the "If only I'd have called him" thoughts.
If you feel guilty, then talk to someone who understands how to deal with these kinds of events. Even a single visit to a psychologist can do a lot to break this feedback loop of guilt. Talking to someone who knows how to listen about real feelings of guilt or depression is the best thing you can do in your position.
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I wrote about depression a while ago - http://sk.or.at/elou9l - maybe you will find words that help you in my post.
Always remember: You only fail in things that you do, not in who you are.
Thank you for writing that blog post. The worse part of depression has definitely been the lack of productivity. Just saying no to doing a lot of things and doing the remaining things in small chunks seems to work the best.
Thanks again for sharing!
And I obviously agree - Depression often means feeling overwhelmed by responsibility. Being better at managing it really does help.
Complete, in your imagination, this scenario:
Your friend has achieved her suicide and arrived at the Pearly Gates, where she is challenged by St. Peter, who notes that she has come too soon. She says that it was all --------------- 's fault.
There are many ways of completing the scenario, but one way or another, your friend has to demonstrate that she had no free will but you had. I suggest either that you both had free will or that neither of you had.
Department of Health Recommendations for Covering Suicide. Do not apportion blame. Do not give simple reasons. Do not glorify.
Read more here:
http://www.who.int/mental_health/prevention/suicide/resource...
http://www.scribd.com/doc/126241/WHO-Media-Guide-for-Suicide...
Help is out there and it is free.
How about just looking around and honestly answering simple question - whose hell today i'm part of ? One don't need to be an active or the most painful part, being just a part, a silent brick in the wall, is enough. And may be, if one has enough brains and courage, to refuse to be the part of the hell, just for one person, just for one day.
And, yes, two decades ago during student years, 3 persons i personally knew very well made the decision, and i respect it. They made the biggest decision in their life, and i'd not disrespect it with "what if"s or "they should have reach for the help" or with any other trash like this...
But I know depression. Depression feels like hell, but it's not. It's a treatable disease. Killing yourself to escape depression is like killing yourself to escape pneumonia instead of going to the hospital.
You should not respect that decision. You should help that person to get better.
People like you, who think that mental illness which is every bit as real as a broken arm is "imaginary" just because you can't see anything wrong, are one of the very worst parts of human society. You are part of the reason, probably the main reason, life is so hard for the mentally ill.
I really shouldn't have to explain this to you, as a great deal has been written on the subject in the past several decades. I beg of you, as a sometime depression sufferer, please go read up on this. Your ignorance hurts humanity.
If you are not ignorant, but simply unwilling to educate yourself, then please take your insane ideology back to the Dark Ages where it belongs.
sorry, man, you've just produced non sequtuir as i never said that mental illnesses are "imaginary".
I said that the statement - "if suicide then necessarily mental illness" - is false in my view. Such statement being false doesn't necessarily means that mental illnesses are imaginary nor that some suicides are result of real mental illnesses.
As it stands, you both have about the same amount of rationality in your argument while Cushman certainly has the numbers on his side - Mental Illness certainly is the leading cause of suicide:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide#Risk_factors
"Clinical studies have shown that underlying mental disorders are present in 87% to 98% of suicides"
So I think Cushman is right - there is no use for your argument in this discussion and all that stands is a misunderstanding about your choice of words on "imaginary" (which I understood the same way that Cushman did - you clearly didn't choose your words wisely there and were bound to be misunderstood).
That statistic presents a somewhat circular logic, with drug abuse (mainly alcohol) and mood disorders (depression: uni-/bi-polar) making up the bulk of the 'mental disorders' figure (FTA). Since feelings of worthlessness and suicidal thoughts are used to diagnose depressive disorders in the first place and since drug abuse is acknowledged to often be a form of self-medication for undiagnosed depression, blaming 'mental disorders' clearly begs the question in a large number of cases.
The literature shows that environmental factors play a major role in causing and aggravating these illnesses and behaviours. I believe this is the point that VladRussian was making and it's not so easily dismissed with 'numbers'. Likewise, the very large proportion of suicides which come after a clinical diagnosis (and presumably some kind of treatment) doesn't inspire much faith in the 'just go and get yourself sorted out' line of advice.
I find it disturbing that in a discussion on this topic, someone advocating being kinder to people in general, and perhaps certain people in particular, would be subjected to the kind of insults that Cushman has used.
I think both sides are projecting their own view a little too hard on this.
Environmental factors surely are a factor in this and I was 'quoting numbers' because VladRussian was a little to quick to dismiss mental illness. Again - since we all don't know the details in this particular case, this is an abstract discussion about suicide. In an abstract discussion, you either make a case and discuss it, or you discuss one that another person has made. VladRussian simply picked a fight and Cushman bought into it.
Also, re: circular logic. I don't think it is circular - Suicidal thoughts may be a symptom of depression, but that's not the same as saying they are a cause of depression. I know you don't say that either, but that's what would make it circular. (Also: saying it's 'somewhat circular' is a cop-out - it either is, or isn't circular.) I further don't think mental disorders really are "blamed" for suicide, they are simply accepted as a very common pathway in medical studies.
Here is what would be a perfectly circular argument:
Somebody commits suicide. Society looks for a reason of that suicide. They figure out that the person was depressed. But why was he depressed? Turns out, he was suicidal.
But that's not what is being argued:
Somebody is depressed. So much depressed, that the person has suicidal thoughts. The person commits suicide. Society correctly assesses that his depression was the main cause in committing suicide. This is apparent, because it was in depression that suicidal thoughts appeared.
So you are dismissing the idea that Ilya was depressed. Yet, claim that there was terrible suffering and hell going on. Ok, I don't know what was happening in this life, but I will just guess that it is highly unlikely that famine, torture, physical, sexual or moral abuse was taking place, at least the kind were most people would agree that suicide was an obvious rational choice.
There is nothing shameful, imaginary, or about depression. Just like there is nothing shameful or imaginary about getting the flu.
no, i'm dismissing the idea that suicide necessarily means a mental illness.
If the person is rational then problems can only be one of two kinds: situational (e.g. my life sucks because I owe more money than I stand to earn in 3 lifetimes) and health-related. The rational stance to the first kind would be to do as I suggest above. Obviously, in the second case escaping won't change anything so suicide could be a rational choice.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1341504/pdf/bmjc...
While I don't know any personally, I know people who know others who had living hell (eg. rape by father, impregnated, abortion). Those people got support, were able to fight back, and regained their lives. What made them different from others was the depression factor, and it's easy to conclude that the support others gave to help them stand up again prevented depression from taking hold.
You're making a very difficult-to-believe claim (for me for sure, and probably for others, given your downvotes) that depression had no factors in those 3 suicides, and an additional difficult-to-believe claim that it's not reasonable to conclude that depression is a leading factor in suicide in general.
Some details would be appreciated if you're going to make such difficult-to-believe claims.
edit: And if you would make the clarification again that you never claimed that depression wasn't a leading cause, just that it's not necessarily a factor, I don't see how that's a profitable statement. People have to make decisions and judgments all the time with incomplete information. Until the picture is 100% known here, it is logical to conclude what the numbers say: depression was a factor, if not the leading factor.
I believe that the "root causes" of depression are what actually deserve any attention, and they are a combination of genes, society, environment and psychology that has been ingrained by these factors. Depression is like smoke from a fire, and we're currently treating it by installing fans to blow the smoke away.
This has been supported by research psychology about what makes a fulfilling life: a sense of autonomy, mastery, and relatedness. I guarantee you that someone missing even one of these will be "depressed." What do we say then? We don't think about how the environment he's living in is not encouraging these things, and we don't think about specific actions he can take to improve these factors.
No, we just say "Depression!" and tell him to go the therapist. Most people in modern society have eaten this psychiatry bullshit whole and as a consequence are more fit to tend houseplants than to maintain even the shallowest of friends.
So NO, what made the people who went through living hell different wasn't the fucking fake concept that is "depression", it was the SUPPORT.
I say we don't ever talk about depression. The very existence of the word "depression" pushes real societal and individual shortcomings and responsibility off the table.
We talk about what's going right and what's going wrong in the person's life, and if we don't have good advice on how to fix the things that are wrong, at least stop trying to grandstand and signal your social status with some useless platitudes and endlessly repeated refrains about the benefits of therapy and medication.
The reality of the situation right now in the startup world is that when people hear you are making x amount/month, you get 500 emails, but when the tables turn and you are suddenly on the receiving end of heavy criticism, you get zero emails.
(And not, say, girl/health/money problems...)
Girl/health problems might fall as well, since the work/life balance is so crappy
The reality of the situation right now in the startup world is that when people hear you are making x amount/month, you get 500 emails, but when the tables turn and you are suddenly on the receiving end of heavy criticism, you get zero emails.
Is this a serious observation? It is my experience that literally nobody cares how much money you're making. Your popularity as a "startup celebrity" is entirely associated with how cool your project is perceived to be, and who is backing it. There are legions of founders making plenty of money on perceived-to-be-boring projects that nobody cares about.
Please consider this: by nature our own pain and suffering strikes us as intensely personal and private, but the truth is the experience is universal. For different reasons, at different times in our lives, we all get served heaping helpings of grief, desperation, regret, shame, disappointment - sometimes all at once. And, in the case of people with depression, sometimes for no discernible reason.
The most crushing aspect of depression and its cohorts is the false perception that your pain is so diabolically personal that it cannot be shared or understood, to say nothing of being addressed or overcome.
tl;dr you're never alone, in fact more people love and respect you than you know - try to never forget that.
https://joindiaspora.com/tags/NewHere – New users every one or two minutes.
https://github.com/diaspora/diaspora/commits/ – Multiple commits, sometimes dozens, every day, many from volunteers.
Would that I were fortunate enough to "fail" this well.
Attributing Ilya's suicide to "failure" is, to my eyes, condescending, and I wish you all would stop it.
I have relatives, two of whom died out of extreme stress and tension(Heart attack and Cancer) because they took loans beyond their means, were unable to repay it back and put a huge burden on their dependents. This is one example of taking risks which people really can't sustain. None of which is needed.
Although you must not worry about the world, at the same time you must not take unnecessary financial risks beyond your means. Because we are people and we go through emotions, and sometimes for things beyond our control we are responsible not just for our lives but for many other people around us. And when we take huge risks, we put both ourselves and people around us under that risk. Now when we can't deal with that risk and we fail, things go worse very quickly and we commit suicide or die out of a disease(fallout of stress).
Nothing is more important than health, and being happy. Take calculated risks. And if you fail, forget about it and start over.
Don't do things which put you in these situations at the first place. And if you are in that situation, seek help and deal with it with it patiently.
Listen to the people you respect, ignore the rest. And if you do want to interact with the community, for heaven's sake, don't respond to the assholes. They're just background noise.
Don't pay any attention to what they write about you. Just measure it in inches.
I would say, if anything, you should do your best to filter out the total assholes but not disregard all negative feedback. There's a difference between "I hate x software because I'm a FOSS fanatic and your company sucks and destroys the earth", which is pretty harsh and "fuck you, you're queer" which is just safe to ignore.
At least Bieber acknowledges that there's people who don't like him.
Worse, you simply accept that opinion as established, cold, hard fact, which means that in your own mind it won't ever change (the world will always be a shithole. I'll always be a loser, Anything I try to do to fix things is futile because everything's so horrible, etc).
"Great friends/family" just means more people to disappoint or fail in some way. "In the news" just means a bigger humiliation once you inevitably screw everything up and piss everyone off and let everyone down.
Essentially, anything good in your life receives a negative spin, and anything bad gets amplified in your warped opinion. And that only leads to more despair, lower opinion, more despair, etc until it feels like the only logical choice is to off yourself. After all, you'd be doing the world a favor if you ceased to exist. All those people you wouldn't be there to hurt or let down. All the outrage you won't cause. It's a net gain, really.
Does that sound fucked up? It is, but for the depressed, that IS their reality.
Unless you've been well-off, famous, respected, you can't understand just how big a gulf there can be between what people see when they look at you, and what you feel inside.
The bigger the gulf, the worse it feels.
You could even cut it to "you can't understand just how big a gulf there can be between what people see when they look at you, and what you feel inside."
I'm certainly fortunate and it makes my life a bit less stressful, but it doesn't keep me warm at night. It doesn't care about whether or not I had a good day at work. I can't have an intellectually stimulating conversation with it. And that's just a little bit of money. Fame would be even worse.
I spoke to a person who was there when his mother called to check on him. Tragic.
In respect for Ilya and those close to him, I have deleted everything that I heard from my source. Sorry for your loss.
EDIT: i just realized you are the author of the blog you linked to. PLEASE take that post down. it is inaccurate in every possible way.
I am sorry for your loss. I have deleted everything that I heard from my source.
Sure it's not as much as owning the next Facebook...but it's plenty of money to live a comfortable life...and nothing was stopping him from trying again in a few years.
As you mentioned above, there's really no way for a bunch of near-total strangers to know what led to his suicide, since most of us knew of him only through his internet activity rather than as personal friends or family members. Simplistic cause-and-effect analyses are usually inadequate or outright misleading where suicide is concerned.
I don't care what other things happened in his life, at 21, there is absolutely no valid reason to kill yourself.
Money can buy an awful lot of things, but not everything.
I agree that there is never a "valid" reason to kill yourself. But don't act like he was so greedy that being internet famous and intelligent wasn't enough for him. Depression hits all kinds of people, and it is simply not something that is affected in a reasonable way by success or failure.
I can't explain why. I think the people there are more melancholy by nature. They also have some of the highest IQs in the world, so maybe there is a correlation there.
Sorry for the tangent, RIP Ilya.
I know each one of us has a circle of friends that they have cultivated to provide unconditional support so that when they need that its there. But even when you do that you might hit obstacles that even overwhelm that.
This is a fairly strange assumption. Not everyone makes friends easily.
So you're right, man. Even when things are looking up it can sneak up on you. I can only imagine what this poor guy went through. He set out to raise $10,000 and exceeded it by far in under 2 weeks, gets thrown into the startup spotlight, the pressure gets intense, and all the while he probably had the mindset of someone doing something much smaller. Not to assume what his thoughts were but it seems like he was just trying to something small and cool and it grew far larger than anyone had anticipated so fast that wasn't enough time to adjust and them that depression snuck in there and now he's gone.
It's so sad. I wonder if the lightning fast growth of Diaspora had anything to do with it. I wonder what effect being in the spotlight can have on someone unprepared for it.
I'm sometimes jealous of the stories about Mark Zuckerberg and Kevin Rose because at least they had a girlfriend to stick around while they were going through the motions. Loneliness is a killer and I don't think friends/family could possibly understand how difficult it is. Even when you describe it they just shake their heads
I also agree with your assessment as it's something I've reiterated. I think it's possible that if Diaspora never got as much media coverage (and built up expectations), this wouldn't have happened. It may have exploded when it was in beta (or not), but the potential disappointment wouldn't have been as large. It's easy to step back and redefine success but in his shoes, I could imagine myself having very grand visions of what Diaspora could be (as also fostered by the coverage) and being crushed when it's not realized.