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Comment by eropple | Hacker News Reader

The river table stuff is largely dead, from my perspective. It's a neat gimmick but it's run its course. I haven't seen somebody talk about one, or seen a new one on YouTube, for months. Maybe longer?

And, FWIW, Festool only sponsors a couple of woodworkers and very rarely gives tools to others for marketing purposes. You see a lot of Festool (and Fein and Mirka) because it's worth it if you're serious. They feel good to use; the Domino is a joy to use and their ETS sanders are way less punishing on my hands than the alternatives.

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Festool's Domino system is the one product I cannot find a cheaper alternative (too pricey for me though, so sticking with my biscuit joiner).

I'm very happy with my Makita track saw though that, while still pricey, was maybe 1/3 the cost of the Festool?

I have a Makita track saw, and it's great. (I joke that using it on my MFT probably has me banned from at least one Central European country.) It absolutely wasn't a third of the price of a Festool, though. More like $500 versus $600 at the time--the spread's a bit more now. I use cheap Wen tracks that are compatible with both, so track prices are a bit of a wash.

The track saw (or like, a drill/driver, but that's a bit jokey) is probably the one place where Festool has the least delta, IMO. The Domino, their sanders, and their dust extractors are genuinely a cut above, and while my shop is outgrowing the basic MFT that they sell, it's mostly to build my own, bigger, more rugged one.

I see you're closer to the prices of Makita vs. Festool. I was under the impression the Festool track saw was closer to $1K a few years back when I got my Makita (and that the Makita was closer to $350). I could be mistaken though.

I bought my Makita two years ago now, so hard to say. I know that the Festool cordless one was a bit bonkers for a while though, but cordless tools that need dust collection are a bit awkward because you can't use a vacuum relay with them so I wouldn't go that route.

Coincidentally, just last night I watched this video from Stumpy Nubs showing how to create loose tenon joinery without the Domino. Of course, it does have some complexities, and assumes you have a table saw and plunge router.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Bx1Mg2mTMO0

I have the Festool Domino XL [1] and IMO router jigs like in that video are only superficially equivalent. The real benefit of the Domino is how it indexes cuts against edges using the mortise spacer tabs/accessories and the 0-90 degree fence, height adjusted using precise stops. It makes "measure twice, cut once" much smoother and setup is so fast that it's become my default method of joinery for anything where aesthetics matters. I sometimes use a single Domino jig for small parts [2] and clamped scrap wood spacers for awkward cuts, but the rest of the time I just use the built-in Domino functions and the included spacer accessory (which extends the length of the tabs to 200mm).

It's hard to describe just how much more useful the tool is compared to router jigs, pocket holes, etc. It changed how I design my work, how I prepare rough stock and cut it to final size, and how I work with wood movement.

[1] though I have the Seneca adapters and all that, I wish I had gotten the smaller one. Unless you're doing serious structural joinery the smaller Domino is much more convenient, and you can double up on tenons instead of reaching for a bigger one in most cases anyway.

[2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qP3JGfjUGbM

I assume you are suggesting the Festool Domino DF 500 (the smaller one)?

I'll add it to my "Wish List", haha.

Correct. Getting the bigger one is probably one of the worst decisions I’ve made in setting up my shop but at the time Festool wasn’t expecting any more to come out of their factories for at least a quarter. It’s more expensive than the 300 pound bandsaw and more awkward to use in most cases than the smaller domino. It was great retail therapy in the first year of the pandemic though.

You’ll know it if you need the larger domino, like if you’re selling a few heirloom quality beds a week for four or five figure sums, and then the expense will most likely be an afterthought.

I really like my DF500, and I'm inclined to agree with you about it being better overall now that you can use Domino Connect pieces with it. (If you're unfamiliar with the Domino Connect stuff--it makes it way easier to make a gift or something you have to ship. DIY flatpack, but way way nicer.)

To be clear, I'm not advocating for the work-around. To my eye, given the complexities of the work-around, and the fact I have no table saw, I'm pretty sure I'd go with the Domino. Besides, my Festool Kapex is a pure marvel that has made me a Festool fan.

The featool domino is patented until 2024 unfortunately.

That's not far off, actually. Thanks.

Dowelmax is 1/4 the cost and makes a stronger joint. (https://vimeo.com/339631122) Woodworking metamorphosed at some point from "basic life skill" to "rich old guy money sport". Festool exploits the latter market masterfully.

I'm sorry, but you're just wrong about who uses Festool tools. Yeah, some people with a boatload of money buy it because it's the most expensive tool.

You primarily see their tools in the hands of pros, because their tools are, in many cases, better than the alternatives. The value prop on the Domino isn't that it's the strongest joint, it's that it's strong enough for the application, fast, and repeatable. When you build furniture for money, that matters. You don't have to build too many frame and panel assemblies to make it pay for itself.

The dust collection on their sanders is outstanding. I don't do site work that involves sanding, but if I did, you'd better believe that I'd make that investment in a heartbeat. Not getting fine sanding dust all over your client's space is worth every penny of the cost.

For me, dust collection on sanders was really nice but it really was how much less of a beating on my hands that the ETS dishes out. I went from a DeWalt to a Bosch, and the Bosch was somewhat better (and actually had excellent dust collection on its own when using a sanding mesh) but the Festool ETS125 is so much more comfortable. If I didn't have the money to upgrade the Bosch would be fine, but I do, and if I did this professionally I would absolutely find the money for my own health.

Sure, but this does not contradict what I said. I strongly suspect that the bulk of Festool’s revenue comes not from selling tools to pros, but rather from selling pro-level tools amateurs who have have convinced themselves that the having the green tools will somehow improve their woodworking. Add up all the “pros” you know, extrapolate that figure wildly, and it still doesn’t get you close the nearly $500M in revenue that they make every year. IMO.

Do professionals benefit economically or quality-wise from the increased demand by would-be prosumers, similar to photography? Some industries rely on volume sales from lower priced and lower quality products, to justify the development of a few high-end halo products that sell in much lower volume. Apple phones (and Festool?) are relatively rare in offering relatively unsegmented products at high prices and profit margins, where most buyers have access to similar product features.

Dominos aren’t about strength so much as accuracy. The tool makes it dead easy to align edges with faces near seamlessly and squarely. It’s a helluva improvement on biscuits or dowels.

If you think the Domino is expensive, you should look at the Lamello biscuit joiners. While seated.

They are also head and shoulders above any other biscuit joiner I've used. At the price, they should be. I don't own one, but I have used one in another shop.

A buddy of mine builds custom arcade machines @arcadeArmy.com - He is currently doing a "river" table epoxy build cabinet.

his machines are beautiful and amazing - and he can make any game cabinet you like.

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