Hitachi Wood Plug Cutter Works Perfectly in Hand Held Drills (2013) | Hacker News Reader

Hitachi Wood Plug Cutter Works Perfectly in Hand Held Drills (2013)

paulsellers.com

138 pointswalterbell60 comments

If you're actually plugging holes with the plugs you make, the other thing to look for is a plug cutter that cuts a slightly tapered plug. The taper ensures that the plug will fill the hole even if it's drilled slightly undersized or (more commonly) slightly oversized. Beware that if you're driving a tapered plug into a hole near the edge of a board, you can split the board. Now you have two problems, as they say.

What other use would a plug cutter have besides cutting plugs for filling holes? Cutting cylindrical tenons. For that application, you'd want one that cuts straight-sided plugs. Unless you're cutting tapered mortises too, of course, in which case you want the tapers to match.

It turns out that you can also use plug cutters without the center spur in a handheld drill to cut cylindrical tenons if you taper the end of the stick so that the plug cutter rides the taper onto the end of the stick. I wouldn't try this with a cutter with four spurs, but the single spur ones apparently do quite well:

https://blog.lostartpress.com/2022/02/24/chairmaking-on-the-...

I don't know if you read it or not but the article also emphasizes that this cutter cuts a tapered plug.

For plugs intended as load-bearing screw anchors to replace damaged wood, should they be fastened to the surrounding wood by:

  1. friction: tapered snug fit, expanding with screw
  2. glue: non-tapered, small cylindrical plug<->hole gap for glue/epoxy
  3. both: tapered snug fit + grooves for glue/epoxy

Just want to make a plug for Paul Sellers. His YouTube videos on woodworking with handheld tools have kept me captivated for years. Through watching his videos, I learned how to cut mortise and tenon, dovetail, and dado joints without touching a powered tool. A weekend hobbyist woodworker, the pleasure I get from truly crafting by hand is immense. Paul is a heavyweight, and he shares what he knows without holding back.

+1 https://www.youtube.com/c/PaulSellersWoodwork

I started watching his videos about 10 years ago, and while I've shifted a bit toward using more power tools in recent years, I still use his foundational hand tool techniques all the time. He can be a little preachy about his "hand tool only" woodworking philosophy, especially on his blog. If you can overlook that, he has a ton of skill and is good at teaching and demonstrating that skill to others through his videos.

> Just want to make a plug for Paul Sellers

Apparently you can use a Hitachi plug cutter to do that.

-- never cared about woodwork till discovering Blacktail Studio on youtube - now all I want to do is make tables - highly recommend - especially if you give zero f's about woodworking --

https://www.youtube.com/c/BlacktailStudio/videos

Wish I had space to do something like this, here in the UK houses are tiny compared to most of the developed world, and having some kind of garage is basically a luxury

On the bright side: you don't have to keep it clean.

For what it’s worth - you can have a lot of fun with a small budget wood lathe and not a lot of space. Pens, small bowls and plates, chess pieces… it’s not as spectacular as big slab tables, but it captures the same “show off beautiful figured wood and nice finishes” bit and it’s cheaper and less space intense. If you are really pressed for space, a small lathe is usually small enough that you could carry it outside when you wanted to turn something (you’d need something to clamp it to outside of course). Or you could have a shed setup - that’s pretty common.

Some parts of the UK have real turning communities or guilds still, and they may offer courses or use of much nicer lathes there.

Is there a UK equivalent of shared workspaces or hackerspaces?

Try Ishitani Furniture. Similar satisfying flow but without the voiceover.

https://youtu.be/x51zMg7roIs

Yep, beautiful stuff. Definitely my favorite woodworker on YouTube so far.

I think his style is more mine. The epoxy "river tables" and all the live-edge stuff that is trendy puts me off of other the YouTubers. (Never mind all the Festool marketing that goes on.)

Live edge is bad but also funny because it is decidedly dead.

River tables are a fad where future people will wonder what were they thinking

The river table stuff is largely dead, from my perspective. It's a neat gimmick but it's run its course. I haven't seen somebody talk about one, or seen a new one on YouTube, for months. Maybe longer?

And, FWIW, Festool only sponsors a couple of woodworkers and very rarely gives tools to others for marketing purposes. You see a lot of Festool (and Fein and Mirka) because it's worth it if you're serious. They feel good to use; the Domino is a joy to use and their ETS sanders are way less punishing on my hands than the alternatives.

Festool's Domino system is the one product I cannot find a cheaper alternative (too pricey for me though, so sticking with my biscuit joiner).

I'm very happy with my Makita track saw though that, while still pricey, was maybe 1/3 the cost of the Festool?

I have a Makita track saw, and it's great. (I joke that using it on my MFT probably has me banned from at least one Central European country.) It absolutely wasn't a third of the price of a Festool, though. More like $500 versus $600 at the time--the spread's a bit more now. I use cheap Wen tracks that are compatible with both, so track prices are a bit of a wash.

The track saw (or like, a drill/driver, but that's a bit jokey) is probably the one place where Festool has the least delta, IMO. The Domino, their sanders, and their dust extractors are genuinely a cut above, and while my shop is outgrowing the basic MFT that they sell, it's mostly to build my own, bigger, more rugged one.

I see you're closer to the prices of Makita vs. Festool. I was under the impression the Festool track saw was closer to $1K a few years back when I got my Makita (and that the Makita was closer to $350). I could be mistaken though.

I bought my Makita two years ago now, so hard to say. I know that the Festool cordless one was a bit bonkers for a while though, but cordless tools that need dust collection are a bit awkward because you can't use a vacuum relay with them so I wouldn't go that route.

Coincidentally, just last night I watched this video from Stumpy Nubs showing how to create loose tenon joinery without the Domino. Of course, it does have some complexities, and assumes you have a table saw and plunge router.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Bx1Mg2mTMO0

I have the Festool Domino XL [1] and IMO router jigs like in that video are only superficially equivalent. The real benefit of the Domino is how it indexes cuts against edges using the mortise spacer tabs/accessories and the 0-90 degree fence, height adjusted using precise stops. It makes "measure twice, cut once" much smoother and setup is so fast that it's become my default method of joinery for anything where aesthetics matters. I sometimes use a single Domino jig for small parts [2] and clamped scrap wood spacers for awkward cuts, but the rest of the time I just use the built-in Domino functions and the included spacer accessory (which extends the length of the tabs to 200mm).

It's hard to describe just how much more useful the tool is compared to router jigs, pocket holes, etc. It changed how I design my work, how I prepare rough stock and cut it to final size, and how I work with wood movement.

[1] though I have the Seneca adapters and all that, I wish I had gotten the smaller one. Unless you're doing serious structural joinery the smaller Domino is much more convenient, and you can double up on tenons instead of reaching for a bigger one in most cases anyway.

[2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qP3JGfjUGbM

I assume you are suggesting the Festool Domino DF 500 (the smaller one)?

I'll add it to my "Wish List", haha.

Correct. Getting the bigger one is probably one of the worst decisions I’ve made in setting up my shop but at the time Festool wasn’t expecting any more to come out of their factories for at least a quarter. It’s more expensive than the 300 pound bandsaw and more awkward to use in most cases than the smaller domino. It was great retail therapy in the first year of the pandemic though.

You’ll know it if you need the larger domino, like if you’re selling a few heirloom quality beds a week for four or five figure sums, and then the expense will most likely be an afterthought.

I really like my DF500, and I'm inclined to agree with you about it being better overall now that you can use Domino Connect pieces with it. (If you're unfamiliar with the Domino Connect stuff--it makes it way easier to make a gift or something you have to ship. DIY flatpack, but way way nicer.)

To be clear, I'm not advocating for the work-around. To my eye, given the complexities of the work-around, and the fact I have no table saw, I'm pretty sure I'd go with the Domino. Besides, my Festool Kapex is a pure marvel that has made me a Festool fan.

The featool domino is patented until 2024 unfortunately.

That's not far off, actually. Thanks.

Dowelmax is 1/4 the cost and makes a stronger joint. (https://vimeo.com/339631122) Woodworking metamorphosed at some point from "basic life skill" to "rich old guy money sport". Festool exploits the latter market masterfully.

I'm sorry, but you're just wrong about who uses Festool tools. Yeah, some people with a boatload of money buy it because it's the most expensive tool.

You primarily see their tools in the hands of pros, because their tools are, in many cases, better than the alternatives. The value prop on the Domino isn't that it's the strongest joint, it's that it's strong enough for the application, fast, and repeatable. When you build furniture for money, that matters. You don't have to build too many frame and panel assemblies to make it pay for itself.

The dust collection on their sanders is outstanding. I don't do site work that involves sanding, but if I did, you'd better believe that I'd make that investment in a heartbeat. Not getting fine sanding dust all over your client's space is worth every penny of the cost.

For me, dust collection on sanders was really nice but it really was how much less of a beating on my hands that the ETS dishes out. I went from a DeWalt to a Bosch, and the Bosch was somewhat better (and actually had excellent dust collection on its own when using a sanding mesh) but the Festool ETS125 is so much more comfortable. If I didn't have the money to upgrade the Bosch would be fine, but I do, and if I did this professionally I would absolutely find the money for my own health.

Sure, but this does not contradict what I said. I strongly suspect that the bulk of Festool’s revenue comes not from selling tools to pros, but rather from selling pro-level tools amateurs who have have convinced themselves that the having the green tools will somehow improve their woodworking. Add up all the “pros” you know, extrapolate that figure wildly, and it still doesn’t get you close the nearly $500M in revenue that they make every year. IMO.

Do professionals benefit economically or quality-wise from the increased demand by would-be prosumers, similar to photography? Some industries rely on volume sales from lower priced and lower quality products, to justify the development of a few high-end halo products that sell in much lower volume. Apple phones (and Festool?) are relatively rare in offering relatively unsegmented products at high prices and profit margins, where most buyers have access to similar product features.

Dominos aren’t about strength so much as accuracy. The tool makes it dead easy to align edges with faces near seamlessly and squarely. It’s a helluva improvement on biscuits or dowels.

If you think the Domino is expensive, you should look at the Lamello biscuit joiners. While seated.

They are also head and shoulders above any other biscuit joiner I've used. At the price, they should be. I don't own one, but I have used one in another shop.

A buddy of mine builds custom arcade machines @arcadeArmy.com - He is currently doing a "river" table epoxy build cabinet.

his machines are beautiful and amazing - and he can make any game cabinet you like.

Can one make a decent income with woodworking?

-- would imagine the wood working tools are not cheap to build up a collection of - and the time commitment seems high - however the dude I linked on youtube seems to sell some stuff for USD $10/15k - his recent table cost him a little over a grand in wood and is currently on ebay for US $4,850.00* - according to the website of his wood supplier - the wood he selected for his recent table is the most expensive wood they have** --

** https://hamiltonleesupply.com/collections/liveedge-slabs-1

* https://www.ebay.com/itm/195247776682

Finish carpentry is woodworking, and there are pretty good opportunities there.

Furniture making is a tough way to make a living; factories are very good at furniture so you need to find customers with a lot of willingness to spend. Even at $25/hr for labor, a table and set of 4 chairs will end up around $5-10k easily. There just aren’t that many people who spend that much.

(I am a finish carpenter and sometimes furniture maker)

Definitely as a luthier -- a violin made by a skilled luthier (not "top of the profession", but "a decade or more of experience doing this full time") is typically in the $10-40k range and if they're not doing repairs (which can also be lucrative) a luthier working full time hours can make 8-16 good quality violins per year.

Of course there's a bunch of expenses to be accounted for, but it's definitely still in the category of "six figure income if you're good".

That's a pretty narrow specialty, and suspect it's not the kind of thing you easily jump to from general woodworking skills.

Agreed that it's a narrow specialty. I think being a skilled (and careful!) woodworker is the primary prerequisite though; many luthiers have little or no musical talent (which may go partway to explaining why instruments are valued more on the quality of workmanship than the quality of sound they produce).

Some people do, some don't.

Even as a background listen, Shop Talk Live is pretty good - and they've covered the "make money from it" before. https://www.finewoodworking.com/blog/shop-talk-live

Carl Rogers rebuilding a house in SW France is also pretty interesting even it the techniques he used are sometime unconventional: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K75pQ2HxRgM

I had the same experience. If you want to branch out, Tyrell Knifeworks - https://www.youtube.com/c/tyrellknifeworks - gave me a similar experience with knife forging/construction

Matthias Wandel might interest you, woodworking with the hacker spirit (including making his own tools...out of wood)

https://woodgears.ca

FWIW AFAIK Matthias is an engineer who used to work at RIM (BlackBerry). His videos about woodworking and everything else are great yeah.

He posts on here sometimes: https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=MatthiasWandel

My favorite that imparts a lot of knowledge and insight in a high density format is Stumpy Nubs.

https://m.youtube.com/channel/UCstwpLSByklww1YojZN-KiQ

Plug cutters, especially those that cut a tapered plug are an interesting exercise in patent shenanigans. As mentioned in this thread, a tapered plug is almost always superior than a straight sided one...the wedge action as the plug is driven down results in a very snug fit. Lee Valley Tools has a patented Snug Plug cutter. As you might imagine, it's been ripped off by many manufacturers. Lest you thing a tapered plug was patented...be aware it's not. The tool design itself is. In the case of the Lee Valley cutter, it has 4 "legs" that outline and then shear the sides off the plug. A quick patent search on "tapered plug cutter" will illustrate many designs...all patented, and resulting in a tapered plug. The idea is to copy the result of the product, and not the product itself. I will say the Lee Valley Snug plug cutters work very well. While you can use them hand held, they (like any similar cutter) will function far better in a drill press.

The Lee Valley cutters are excellent, but max out around 1/2" depth. Any recommended wood plug cutters for deep (1" - 2") plugs?

Are the Lee Valley cutters related to the Fuller ones, https://wlfuller.com/html/plug_cutters.html & https://wlfuller.com/html/about.html?

> During the late 1950's, Warren Jr. renovated the countersink design -- a change that is extensively used today. Originally the flutes of the countersink were straight in design. In the new model the flutes are slightly slanted. This modified the tool from a scraper to a cutter. The design allowed the wood chips to clear, preventing clogging.

At a pinch, drilling a hole the external diameter of the plug cutter and clamping that to the board you are getting the plug out of can act as a guide so the plug cutter doesn’t spiral out and cut a hole in the wooden stairs you are using as an impromptu bench (for example).

Or the foot acting as an impromptu clamp (for example).

The included hyperlink to the product discussed did not work. I suspect it was something like this:

https://www.lowes.com/pd/Hitachi-3-8-in-Plug-Cutter/3056069 (discontinued)

None of these match (have the 4 cutting teeth and the center), they either have two teeth with the center or 4 teeth without.

https://www.woodcraft.com/categories/plug-cutters

Wonder how these other ones hold up to hand drilling.

The comments in the post say it’s been discontinued, but I was able to find similar bits by other brands, searching for “self-centering plug cutter”.

I’ve used those Snappy brand cutters in a handheld cordless drill. It’s workable but tricky. You need to start with light pressure and high speed until the cutters score a clean circle, then gradually increase the pressure. The workpiece absolutely needs to be clamped down with zero movement, and it helps if you can find a way to brace your upper body and the drill as you work. The trickiest part is keeping the cutter perfectly square to the work in both axes —- if you tip it too far you’re likely to shatter the cutter as the metal is very brittle.

I've hand drilled hundreds with a non centering plug cutter. It works fine. You make the plugs long anyway so tear out at the beginning isn't an issue. With a tapered cutter the starting surface is going into the hole so it doesn't have to look good either. The main tedium is when they get dull it becomes a bear to force them into the wood.

Last thing I expected to discover on HN. This is incredibly useful for any DIYer. Thanks OP!

Edit: Usually I refrain from thank you posts on HN but I had to make an exception owing to the unique nature of this post.

Hack All The Things! Recent DIY/workshop/garage threads:

Rivet nuts, https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32235908

Making holes without an electric drill, https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32124451

DIY tool storage + kaizen foam alternatives, https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32066503 & https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32067236

Pozidriv + Robertson & Torx screws https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31956655 & https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31958512

Mini drill press + X-Y tables, https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31875997 & https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31873273

I have a set of Montana plug cutters, also designed for hand drill use: https://www.montanabrandtools.com/collections/plug-cutters/p...

A fun game to play, when cutting plugs in bulk, is to see how many you can cut before one breaks off and jams up the cutter. This is a bad thing because you have to break your flow and spend a non zero amount of time chipping the jammed plug out of the mechanism.

I can do at least five before it goes wrong and I have to stop and get out a chisel to clear the jaws. Oh, for a drill press!

I've made plugs with a hole saw that turned out pretty OK. I drilled out the knot with a hole saw and made the plug by removing the center drill after getting about 20% through the plug board.

I used a slightly larger saw for creating the plug and then sanded the difference (after marking the plug with a set of calipers) on a belt sanding jig, which allowed me to essentially turn the plug.

The end result wasn't as good as Paul's, but it allowed me to get the job done.

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