Robertson vs. Torx screw drives (2021)
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Pozidriv screws have a small engraved cross at 45 deg to the main recess. The drivers have a small matching flute in the grooves.
Nice picture here: https://www.finehomebuilding.com/2015/09/16/what-is-the-diff...
Luckily Torx seems to have finally won and screws that require any kind of moment (construction/decking/fasteners/) now seem to use them in stores, while only the kind of scre you'd hang up a picture frame with is PH/PZ.
I have never seen a square (Robertson?) screw in the wild, I assume that's regional.
Slide a screw onto the screwdriver. Hold it horizontally. Holds fast. Can you do that with Torx?
The way I'd describe Torx to someone who is used to Robertson is that Torx is like Robertson, only more so. That is, all the things you'd consider the strengths of Robertson are things that Torx is better at.
Torx fit very snuggly and even the smaller bolt is hard to strip as long as you have the right but size.
For example, I live in Southern California and I haven't seen them at the hardware store until recently. I found one behind a wall-plate in my home several years ago when I was changing a light switch. Thankfully, I'm Canadian, so I already had the right tool -- right next to the unspent Canadian Tire money in my toolbox. ;)
In my experience, a problem with Torx is that it is a common mistake to use a bit one size smaller than what it should be. It will still engage just fine, but if you apply too much force, you'll destroy the bit, or head, or both. I find it a lot harder to notice when I pick the wrong size Torx bit, compared to a Philips or Pozidriv.
I have made this mistake a lot when using Torx. I have learned myself to always test a bit one size larger than what I think I need, just to be sure.
My experience of Torx screws in high torque applications (bolting together Bosch high pressure diesel pumps) also makes them seem flawed, as the small contact area results in damage to the screw (hardened, awful to drill out, yet still round off with an almighty crack when enough pressure is applied, hence needing to drill out) or damage to the thin ends of the Torx driver itself 50% of the time.
I wasn’t aware that there could even be a “T17” or “T31” - simply because no one would ever do it. Increments of 5 is already close enough to some times guess wrong.
The way I heard it was that Mr. Robertson gave his new screws to Henry Ford for testing. Ford wanted to use them but Robertson insisted on a royalty per screw. Ford would not agree to that so the deal failed. This is probably the reason they are a regional rather than an international screw. The entire electrical hardware industry uses square heads in Canada.
(Source: Probably CBC radio many decades ago (?) )
My fleetwood mobile home built in the late 90s was assembled entirely with square head screws, hex head lag bolts, glue, and a lot of staples.
Almost exclusively Canadian I believe.
You can get them though, I bought a Kreg pocket hole jig in the UK which came with some for some reason, and had no problem getting bits for them (Amazon I think).
I'd never seen them (IRL) before that either.
Reasonably common here in Australia. Our decking screws are either Torx or Square Drive.
https://www.homedepot.ca/product/dewalt-drywall-dimplers-3-p...
Simpson makes very large diameter, 4" stainless steel screws that I rather like:
#12 x 4", model number is S12400DBB
... those are 306 stainless but if you want 316 you would get T12400DBB.
IF we use screw fasteners in framing, we typically use GRK 3-1/8"-#10 but once in a while we just want something beefier and those simpson 4"-#12 are fantastic ...
... and they are square drive.
And obviously, not much uses any imperial naming. I think this is regionally produced because e.g a beam hanger for 45mm timber has to be pretty close to 45mm and a 2” won’t do.
Klein tools makes combination head tools that engage both, which is fantastic if you are upgrading a bunch of outlets.
I'm glad I know pozidrive now.
A feature is that pozi is compatible with Phillips bits, just without its advantages.
For people with older or smaller toolkits, that's actually quite helpful.
With most of my deck screws I just can't get them and have to force the board off or try to pull them out like nails. Between dirt, rust, corrision and some s(l)ight inaccuracies between the driver and the screw I can't seem to get a grab without rounding the square. As the article mentions you have to keep pushing the driver in which isn't always easy depending on what sort of access you have. The other problem is there's so many different sizes and there doesn't seem to be a clear way to figure out the right bit given their slight variations and the condition of old screws.
Would be interesting to try and quantify these differences with tests. I still prefer Allen screws, especially if you can get enough depth. The difference between the sizes is pretty clear (if you can tell if it's metric or not...) and they seem to grab pretty solidly. Don't have that much experience with Torx but when working on my BMW motorcycle that had a lot of Torx bolts they seemed to work fairly well, too many different styles/sizes for my liking though so harder to find the correct bit...
I was able to get some out with a manual impact driver and later some out with an electric impact driver. I had quite a few though that this didn't work on.
What I ended up doing, which only works if you don't need to avoid damaging the board, was use a wood chisel to clear remove the wood around the screw head. I then gripped the exposed head tightly with locking pliers roughly perpendicular to the axis of the screw. It was then fairly easy to turn the screws.
A small number of the heads broke off, but the locking pliers had no trouble turning those by the shaft instead.
I used Milwaukee locking pliers [1]. Unlike most locking pliers where the locking knob is designed to only be turned directly by hand, the Milwaukee locking knob has a hole through it meant to allow you to stick a metal rod such as a screwdriver through it and use that to get a lot more torque for turning the knob than you can get by hand [2]. You can get an insanely tight lock this way.
I only had one screw that this failed with. That one broke off low enough to leave nothing exposed above the bottom board. For that one I just left it in and made sure to place the replacement screw slightly to the side so it would go into wood instead of hitting the old screw.
[1] https://www.milwaukeetool.com/Products/Hand-Tools/Pliers/Loc...
Why not open the pliers, tighten the knob, then close the pliers again? You have lots of leverage in closing the pliers; do you need even more than that?
I couldn't think of any situation where that would be a hindrance and it might be helpful in some situations, so I went with them. Also, the "t" in "tzs" stands for "Tim" so I was sort of obligated to go for more power. :-)
This sounds like Robertson, which is uniquely Canadian. Are you in Canada by any chance?
While he doesn't go into the science and physics directly, he often shows the precise outcomes and results of controlled tests to compare brands against one another. It's always fun when he reads a manufacturer's claim and makes it abundantly clear "we're going to test that."
I have seen some people cover the entire body panels of dedicated purpose off road 4x4 with bed liner or a similar product as a protective layer.
they test all sorts of useful things like sds plus hammer drill bits and similar.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1EOo1cWHieEPCi0nIpW7KU6xO...
What's the preferred way to crowdsource spreadsheets or a mini-database? CSV files in github repo, Airtable public db, ..?
A more accurate review would focus much more on things like whether your knife steel will chip easily if you apply lateral pressure (a lot of high-edge retention steels do this, but will last practically forever between sharpenings if used well) or how long will this steel hold a working edge? ("D2 takes a lousy edge and holds it forever") or "will this knife rust too easily in my profession" (rustproof steels like o1, LC200N, and Vanex exist, but tend to be on more specialized knives and generally make other tradeoffs). Can I sharpen this knife without spending a ton of money on diamond sharpeners? Is the knife comfortable for long cutting sessions or are there hot spots? Is this knife going to be a bit small or large for an average hand? Do the pieces fit together well and are they milled well? What kind of locking mechanism is used and is it one that works well for me (especially in gloves)? Is the blade shape and size designed for my kind of cutting tasks?
There's thousands of radically different knives not just because of personal preferences, but because the changes make a difference in how the knife performs at different jobs.
If you want general knife reviews on youtube, Metal Complex, Nick Shabazz, and Slicey Dicey are probably the top three. Cedric & Ada is a great reviewer if you're interested in knife cut testing. Advanced Knife Bro is great if you like a more sarcastic style. They have something to sell, but Knifecenter has some pretty good content too. If you like Swiss Army Knives (or are in a country like the UK that mostly bans the good knives), Felix Immler literally wrote the book on using them for bushcrafting.
Larrin Thomas' site knife steel nerds (and his book) is a must-read if you're interested in the really in-depth knowledge about steels and how they relate to knives. His new supersteel (MagnaCut) is doing really crazy things in the knife world at the moment. Science of Sharp also deserves a shoutout for some interesting work on microscopic images of various sharpening techniques and steels.
Be warned that an "all-arounder" midrange, drop point knife will be $100-250 and it may be hard to buy just one.
> Larrin Thomas' site knife steel nerds (and his book) is a must-read if you're interested in the really in-depth knowledge about steels and how they relate to knives. His new supersteel (MagnaCut) is doing really crazy things in the knife world at the moment. Science of Sharp also deserves a shoutout for some interesting work on microscopic images of various sharpening techniques and steels.
Steel quality is also important to physical security (e.g. fasteners, locks, doors) which in turn underpins many assumptions of digital security.
I get tired of needing a bit box with 10 different torx sizes so I can find the right one.
Flat head: the bigger the better in this format, and simplicity has it's place, but easy to destroy in a variety of situations. Also, when you're out of options cutting a flathead slot into a destroyed screw might just work. The classic 6.5/10
Phillips: everywhere, but rather bad. You get a finite but unknown number of interactions with Phillips heads before it suddenly strips out and you're sad. This includes both the screws and the bits, Philips bits are the only ones I've ever had that shatter, the rest fairly predictably deform and can be retired.
Square (Robertson): bettr than the above. However, they're also like hex (Allen) but less good.
Hex (Allen): one of my favorites, and they scale rather well. BUT, if you strip it at all, maybe even once, you're done, the angles are shallow enough that there's no coming back, you've cut out a circle.
Posix: like Phillips if you squint, but if you actually use the right bit and, most importantly, push down harder than seems reasonable times 2, you'll pretty much never have a problem.
Torx: not lots of experience, and there's the rub. At the moment they're a hard bit for a layperson to find, regardless of their advantages
Torx just works. Never an issue (except smallest bit size TX10 can wear out quickly). I guess disadvantage is you need to have them in 4-5 sizes depending on screw size, like Hex, but that is easily worth it.
The smallest Torx size is a T1 (or TX1, whatever)! This size is best described as "pray that you never have to use it". I think I did... once... or maybe that was just staring at the driver wondering what it's for. Still, we have 16 different Torx sizes around here. Sixteen!
Also, there's a thing called Torx Plus out there. You can buy Torx Plus screws and things will work out for you, but don't buy Torx Plus bits unless you know what you're doing. That said, if you do use Torx Plus bits with Torx Plus screws, it works really well.
TORX Plus has made its rounds on the automotive circuit. It's designed to be somewhat backwards compatible but it is a lot easier to damage the fastener with a normal TORX driver.
Side note: mistakenly using a smaller torx driver demolishes both the screw head and the driver... and it usually fits well.
I wonder if the pin/hole tolerances of the "tamper proof" variants are tight enough to keep the slightly smaller out? Then it's not so much about keeping out people who don't own the right tools (gatekeeping) but about keeping out hands that happen to not hold the right tool at the moment, which is very well possible even if one should know better, and the right tool is available as well. You should never blame the user for a mistake that could have been prevented by better UI.
Ahh yes, I learned this the hard way. T20 bit for a T25 screw, for example. It might work for a few screws then all of a sudden the next one gets destroyed.
In addition to automotive it is all over appliances, electronics (eg hard drives), laptops, small electronic devices including smart phones.
The Husky toolkit I purchased from Home Depot 25 years ago included Torx bits.
Here is even a tamper resistant kit you can get at Home Depot: https://www.homedepot.com/p/Husky-Magnetic-Tamperproof-TORX-...
I am actually stupefied that someone can differentiate Philips from Pozidrive but isn't aware you can pick up a Torx driver set from any Walmart or Harbor Freight.
Just to show some data, go to home depot page and look at the screws categorized by drive style: I'm seeing ~2600 phillips heads, ~500 star (which appears to be torx under a different name), 55 square, and 27 torx (under the torx name).
Home Depot / Lowes is at least 50% torx screws these days. They're impossible to miss. Not sure where you're looking, but I'm talking about the actual physical store.
Especially if you look at screws intended for decking/lumber, it'll be an even higher % than 50.
That was the original comment, that is all I responded to - which is just a completely ridiculous.
And if you work on cars, you'll encounter the fasteners all the time.
But there's a very popular construction screw sold at Home Depot, etc that uses a "star" bit. The overall fastener selection at Home Depot isn't amazing, never has been - they've never been much of a hardware store. Check Grainger or something.
In the US Torx is everywhere.
In fact, when I consider doing any kind of construction project or building outside of the US (in Europe, for instance) one of the major downsides would have to be my near total reliance on GRK screws and Simpson fasteners.
I would not want to have to build things without easy access to products from those two firms.
Is there a good online US source for GRK screws? e.g. GRK RSS14212HP from a random seller is about 2X normal price, https://www.amazon.com/GRK-RSS14212HP-HandyPak-Structural-Pa...
SPAX sells direct via Amazon, e.g. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00DSSLP8M/
My family is in construction and I called my dad up after snapping the heads off too many torx drive deck screws and he suggested these. I’ve /NEVER/ broken one and I exclusively use a 20V impact driver on max when driving fasteners.
GRK is my preferred second choice and I find it better than Grip-Rite, DeckMate, or Spax. Another thing is that construction screws are usually more durable than deck screws, anymore, as deck screws are generally ceramic now to prevent corrosion but weaker shaft strength.
All of these brands are available at any home store in the US pretty much.
At this point, I'm happy to let Robertson and torx screws co-exist. Just phase out, obsolete, or otherwise fire into the sun all the truly shitty screws out there to help reduce the number of drivers you need to have banging about in a respectable driver drawer. Seriously, there's just too damned many different things out there. Any company (e.g. Apple) that feels the need to make their own new screw just for the heck of it can go sit naked on a soft-boiled egg and spin.
Torx is more suited for precision electronics stuff. Or assembling machinery.
Switching from Phillips screws has solved a lot of problems we used to have in maintaining the products, especially in marine applications.
By contrast I almost never see machine or metal fastening screws in Torx format, almost always these are Philips or Hex.
My pocket knife is more likely to be with me than my Torx screwdriver set.
Interestingly my pocket knife's screwdrivers feel so much better than dedicated Philips screwdrivers. Maybe because the bits are designed to cover the size range, while dedicated screwdrivers are for a very specific size, and they very much suck if you have a mismatch.
Philips is _enough_. In fact, for most purposes, a slot screw was enough. I am not carrying my bits collection everywhere.
Enough for removing, but I dread fastening more than a couple slotted bolts at a time- the driver always slides out easily, is not self centering, and you still need several sizes to reliably undo both small and large bolts.
> In fact, for most purposes, a slot screw was enough.
But if I ever need to service something, I want it to be accessible; I want somebody at least think about it for once.
My favorite screw drive type is hybrid Slotted/Philips screw. If it is large enough to be unscrewed by a coin and somebody have thought about it too -- even better.
Recently I learned that there are screwdrivers that fit those screws perfectly by being flathead with Robertson #1 in the middle.
It's called Milwaukee ECX #1
Other variants are PH/SL1 and PZ/SL1
I was just saying to someone (after having stripped some Phillips head 8-32 screws that stripped by just looking at them) that it's amazing that the guy who invented the worst screw is famous for them. The lesson? Life is not fair.
All I see in general home maintenance stores is philips/pozidriv. Torx is used in laptops/mobiles and I haven't seen Robertson at all.
Hex drives are popular also, mostly for furniture/Ikea.
(Poland)
I primarily keep stock of their 'cabinet' screws which have a washer head useful for mounting all sorts of things and their multi-purpose framing screws. I'll buy their trim screws as needed.
They are excellent fasteners and they're readily stocked in Home Depot near me, which is a big positive.
They are still relatively rare in city stores that target the general consumer, but they are readily available in larger suburban/rural stores. However, even in these, small boxes are usually only available in Pozidriv, but bigger boxes are often available in both Pozidriv and Torx, the latter being a bit more expensive.
Never seen a Robertson screw there, however.
Square has never been a thing in Europe.
I've never seen Robertson screw in a Polish store.
Drywall screws are Philips though.
I do think torx has a few too many sizes. It's already so much better than Phillips, T15 might be fine for the T20 and T25 use cases.
I'm sure there's times you need a T20, but they could be marked as non preferred specialty parts.
Same with the really small torx. T6 seems unnecessary.
For woodworking and DIY I use T20 80% of the time. T15 15%, and then rarely T10, T25, and T30. I installed a pair of window sill screws with wall anchors once that had a T40 head; great torque and no cam out! Torx really shines in those applications.
T9, T8, T7, T6, T5, etc. I've really only encountered on hard disks when dismantling them for fun. Not something most people would need. So for Torx most people are set with a supply of T10, T15, T20, T25, and T30 bits. T20 is really the only one I wear out (or lose) more than one per year of.
No one knows what that weirdly numbered T27 bit is for, but I guess it's good to have just in case.
Things do seem a bit better now, T20 seems to be taking over.
The implication that we're stuck with Phillips because Ford couldn't license Robertson is wild though: I wonder what was going on that made him so resistant to licensing.
[0]: Where I live (Denmark) doors and windows are these days mounted with an 8 mm hard steel screw directly into a slightly undersized hole in the brick wall ("montageskrue" in danish). These are by far the highest torque screws I have ever worked with. The early versions used Phillips rather than Torx, and nobody even bothers trying to get those loose before breaking out the saw.
You are aware that stainless is softer than common steel, and definitely more likely to strip out? They are more expensive, but best reserved for times when their softness is worth trading for corrosion resistance.
I do use an impact driver sparingly or the torque setting on drill/driver - plus Bosch or Makita bits.
This is hell on Earth! Cam-out, cam-out, cam-out of all those cheap mushy-metal Phillips heads. And don't tell me to get harder screws: Usually you don't get to choose, you work with what's provided or already installed.
I just _wish_ Torx or Robertson would catch on here.
(Israel/Palestine)
Now I'm wondering if they are actually following some other standard like that Japanese one.
Speaking of screwdrivers, anyone else here also have way more screwdrivers than you can explain? I can only remember ever buying a small number of screwdrivers, but I have several times that number. Most of them don't match any of the others in handle shape and color and material, so it isn't like I bought a couple or so sets that I've forgotten buying. I seem to have somehow individually acquired a bunch of screwdrivers.
I'm not now nor have ever been a very DIY person and all my screwing needs are easily met by just a handful of screwdrivers.
I have several full drawers of random screwdrivers.
Some older friends who told me stories about people ruining JIS fasteners on bikes and motorcycles because they assumed it was just a Philips. I think the depth of the point is part of the distinction and it causes the drivers to not have adequate contact with the screw head.
And very very often the owner has tried to take it apart with a Phillips screwdriver and damaged the fasteners as a result.
I have a JIS screwdriver from Vessel that works really well.
There may be the occasional unmarked JIS screw though.
Now I use Torx or hex head screws for my personal projects too because they're so much easier to work with once you have some drivers.
Or you're asking for more than the screws are good for. I work in R&D. I've had to do things with fasteners that no one should have to do... and I know this because we redesigned that BS as soon as we could. Phillips has given me plenty of trouble in anything harder than light duty use. Torx and hex have both always been fine. Even if hex is theoretically not very good, somehow it's always good enough in the real world. (The availability of hex ball drivers probably accounts for at least some of this. But now there are Torx ball drivers too!) I've got JIS Phillips, I've got American Phillips, I've got DIN/ISO Phillips, I can tell the difference between them, I know when to use all of them, and I can confidently say I hate 'em all.
I've come across a lot of screws that look like they should take a #1 bit, on account of being so small. But they actually have a #2 head, which can be driven with a #1 driver, with a lot of effort and damage to the screw head.
For such a common tool, this is a pretty major flaw in usability.
I think this depends on industry. The last time I went to Home Depot or Lowes to pick up wood screws, I don’t remember seeing Torx at all, but the square drives (Robertson) are.
They're just not a thing in the UK, or at least in Scotland. It's interesting that a lot of cheap DIY store stuff is coming with Torx screws, and indeed Lidl often sells packs of actually quite nice Torx wood screws in various sizes with the correct bit included.
What Is Pozidriv? How Does It Differ from a Phillips Drive? (2020) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31956655 - July 2022 (64 comments)
And of course screws are available with different metal harnesses and strength.
Highly composite numbers are under-appreciated. There are more divisors in 12 than in 10. Matching our number system to fingers isn’t ideal in a lot of cases.
Built in torque limit. Above a certain amount of torque, the head of the screw fails (either the driver "cams out" or the head gets damaged).
This is usually a bug, but occasionally it is a feature.
Torx is the best tho.
1. Fewer sizes. Robertson has 6 sizes. If you're using the wrong one, you will know. People often use the wrong Torx driver and end up stripping it.
2. Slightly tapered bit. This allows one-handed usage. You put the bit on and it will stay there. No need to hold the screw with your other hand.
3. Even if painted over, Robertson still works, allowing you to remove them.
I agree Torx is second best though.
I don't know whether this was for some simple form of tamper resistance (I do not believe they actually used the security Torx), or rather for some reasons related to manufacturing and maintenance, which I find much more likely.
As the article points out, Torx does have superior torque handling, especially in a time where "lesser" screws may have been more common in PCs, and the use of automatic torque-limiting screwdrivers during manufacture and service would've been an advantage.
On good days.
Then there's Uncle Jimmy.
Also here Torx is gaining popularity, I don’t buy anything else except for special needs.
Edit: pozidrive -> pozidriv (learned something new today)
Another similar situation is bicycle derailleurs. Many older Shimano derailleurs have JIS adjustment screws. They are just similar enough to Phillips that it seems like it's working, but it's very easy to damage the screw head. I have heard that they moved to Torx recently.
I prefer (inner) hex for bolts and torx for screws. Torx is ok for bolts too (mostly m4/m5). Standard hex is fine for wood anchors as well. A rather important downside of torx: you can put a smaller torx driver - say T15 in T20 (and esp. T8 and in T10) - that ruins both the bit and the screw head. Hex doesn't suffer from that issue.
I had to think for a while to remember the last time I saw a Phillips screw here in the UK. Then I remembered - it was about a year ago when I had to take something apart, and I cussed the thing out for having a screw that almost matches the screwdrivers that everyone has, and who even has Phillips screwdrivers these days anyway?
Posi/cross head screws are just crap, the amount of pressure required to drive them in is tremendous.
Hex heads are ok, but still require a bit of pressure.
Torx screws can be driven in with one hand on the drill. ONE HAND. plus if youre at the top of a ladder, there is no need to push yourself off it to get the fucking screw into the wall.
for those people in the UK, screwfix sell turboscrews (https://www.screwfix.com/c/screws-nails-fixings/woodscrews/c...), which are excellent torx screws, they also come with the drivers needed in every box. Spax are just overly expensive.
They work well once, assuming you have a fresh bit. but if someone doesn't have a clutch set on the drill, then you tend to get subtle damage pretty quick.