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Comment by oars | Hacker News Reader

The Tiktok algorithm we have rewards repetitive dancing in front of the camera, pulling ("fake") pranks and random snippets from movies edited together with dramatic music added.

In China (their app is called Douyin), the algorithm rewards things they want their youth to be doing. Content which involves maths, engineering, medicine, etc are rewarded.

I'm certain that there is some strategic motive from China to push American children in the wrong direction with the invention of this app. Kids and teenagers spending their time and energy on unproductive activities which will lead to the next generation being ever-so slightly behind.

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Everyone's TikTok experience is different. Although sometimes you do need to long-press on a video and say you're not interested, the experience as a whole tends to be relatively finely tailored per person.

For example, many of my videos for a long time were basically short essays about current events, relationship advice, (edit: BIPOC) creators, interesting skits or stories about Marvel or DC characters and so on.

Silly dance junk and pranks are certainly not what I see. There is _some_ dance stuff, but it's in subgenres I'm interested in and so I've given those the watch time.

You can curate yourself to things you're interested in. It's not that hard and it's strongly recommended.

You can both be right. It doesn’t take much for TikTok to show 20% learning content to Chinese people and only 5% to westerners. And no one would know.

But I think it’s much worse. TikTok is clearly the goto place now for divisive content on LGBT issues, it’s provoking massive political arguments. And I’m sure this is just scratching the surface. I have no doubt it’s a global sentiment manipulation tool for the CCP. Why wouldn’t they do it is the question that should be answered.

Maybe what the CCP believes is bad for us (LGBT rights?) is exactly what we need to move forward?

They say divisive content, I say lively political debate. They say stability, I say stagnation. They say decadence, I say liberty.

If there is a masterplan to blow up the west with silly music videos, then maybe our society deserves to be blown up and replaced by something freer and stronger?

>If there is a masterplan to blow up the west with silly music videos, then maybe our society deserves to be blown up and replaced by something freer and stronger?

I'd be much more sympathetic to this line of thought if society getting blown up - even if it ultimately results in improvement - didn't usually involve unbelievable amounts of suffering and death.

I long pressed on videos to say "not interested" that show gross dermatology videos, root canals, and ear cleaning. I would still repeatedly get those when I was using the app.

Pressing "not interested" does nothing. The reason you keep getting these is because you subconsciously enjoy them. You look a few seconds more than someone who truly doesn't want to see it.

And that's one of the problems. If I say I'm not interested, I'm not interested.

TikTok doesn't just show inane dance videos in America. It shows them throughout the world. If China had some evil plan to poison the minds of youth they are not just targeting American kids.

In reality, Hanlon's razor applies. It's better explained by apathy rather than an evil masterplan. China simply doesn't care about non-Chinese kids, they consider that the American government is responsible for American kids' welfare.

When an APT like China is concerned (or, eg the CIA), you'd be foolish to wantonly apply Hanlon's razor. I'm not saying it never applies, but some of the lengths nations go to in order to gain an advantage over their adversaries is astounding. Think NSO iPhone hack†. It's been documented that the CCP requires a party member be allowed to see into the company's private business dealings, or else face the same fate as Jack Ma‡. The Chinese version of TikTok, Douyin, is heavily scrutinized, eg (from down-thread) https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-53840167.

†https://googleprojectzero.blogspot.com/2021/12/a-deep-dive-i...

‡https://www.businesstoday.in/latest/world/story/jack-ma-arre...

I have not wantonly applied Hanlon's razor. You missed the first part where I said that TikTok is the same in every non-Chinese market. Friend or foe. There is no targeted attack towards America. They simply do not care about non-Chinese kids at all.

Obviously China does care about the Chinese internet, it is heavily censored as we all know. But it is a giant leap from "China censors Chinese-TikTok" to "China is trying to make American kids stupid with dance videos". The corollary is that the people claiming this want China to heavily censor American TikTok so that it is more like Chinese TikTok!

What's an APT?

An advanced persistent threat. A sophisticated targeted attack.

In someways China is ultra-capitalistic. They will sell what people want. And it seems that many people want to see dancing teenagers.

Maybe China isn't doing anything. They just allow a company to deliver exactly what people want and people eagerly lap it all up.

>In someways China is ultra-capitalistic. They will sell what people want.

Nothing could be further from the truth. Pornography, anything deemed prurient by the government, anything deemed corrosive to social values, even trivial things like the depiction of zombies and ghosts in media, is strictly controlled by the communist government of China without respect for corporate profits.

Not sure about you but my TikTok algorithm just shows anime hot takes, quick facts about world events, and a goat named Billy Earl who can't stay off of the neighbor's damn house.

If all you see are pranks and dances it's probably what you went on there looking for.

It's easy to blame the user for what the algorithm selects, but unless you go search for eg "math", it's difficult for the algorithm to decide you want to view any of the content that's harder to digest than the trivial dance videos. Given the app's roots, it's not surprising it see's dances as the primary content to start surfacing to new accounts to start engagement.

> push American children in the wrong direction with the invention of this app

Even American apps (Facebook/Instagram/Twitter) have performed no better in this regard. Maybe the reason is the underlying demand for such content rather than any malicious intent.

Where did you get the idea that douyin pushes math and engineering? It would never gain popularity in that way. In fact, the Chinese haters say the exact same thing as you do, that douyin is full of dancing and movie cuts, is a poison of mind and only for the stupid people.

This is not true. If you search "popular douyin" in Youtube (yes, it gets uploaded in ytb as well), you'll find similar types of videos as you can find in tiktok. One difference is that girls will be wearing more as the culture in China is more conservative on that perspective.

Got source? The social media market in China is fiercely competitive and TikTok (Douyin) got to be king of the hill by delivering exactly what its users want, not what the CCP wishes they wanted.

"My source is that I made it up"

Oh sweet child

Could you please stop posting unsubstantive and/or flamebait comments to HN? We ban accounts that do this because we're trying for a different sort of forum here.

If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and taking the intended spirit of the site more to heart, we'd be grateful.

Obviously Douyin is censored, everything in China is, but there's a loooong history of cat and mouse as apps and creators push the envelope and the state stomps down when they go too far.

The censor can remove content they don’t want people to see, but not push people to see what they don’t like. At least not without monetary rewards.

> I'm certain that there is some strategic motive from China to push American children in the wrong direction

I don't buy that. Engaging content is engaging content. Math is boring everywhere. You can push on trends at the edges, but there's no way Douyin is going to succeed, even in the PRC, as a social virtue nag. And there's no need to invoke a conspiracy theory to explain why western kids are drawn to fashion and fun.

Youtube is already full of this stuff, Instagram is full of narcissist people, Twitter is full of angry people and so on. I don't think we need China.

Are you sure it's a difference in algorithm? I would not be surprised if that was the natural outcome of heavy censorship where pranks and lewd dancing get removed or accounts banned.

Is there any reference for this? Haven't heard this before

It's not the big eaters that are all rage in Asia, including China?

Since people don't know much about the topic https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-53840167 Or back in 2017 https://www.scmp.com/news/china/society/article/2118386/meet...

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