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Comment by jylam | Hacker News Reader

> An ebike is really a light motorcycle,

I understand why you say that, but no no no. A motorcycle is 200kg+, capable of 150+km/h, and really needs proper training (Unlike as in the US, where it seems being able to steer it is sufficient to get your licence).

E-Bikes should need a proper licence, very very different from motorcycles. Both are very dangerous, but in different ways.

In Europe we have <50cc licences, where you still need to learn a dumded down version of the road code, and that's not even enough to my taste.

(Almost lost my life, with proper motorcycle training, full equipement, in Paris, just getting to confident).

Please do not take motorized 2 wheels lightly, an e-bike can kill you very easily.

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(Speaking about EU here...)

E-bikes has a maximum speed is 25 km/h, and from the few studies done on the subject there doesn't seem to be any increase risk from e-bikes compared to regular bikes. One significant data point is that the average speed of e-bikes has been observed to be similar as of regular bikes with two exceptions: up hill has a higher speed than regular bikes and long flat stretches has more even speed. Most accidents involving bikes and e-bikes alike occur at very slow or even still speed, with the rider falling off and landing badly.

There are two factors however that those studies have found. More disabled people use e-bikes, and when they end up in accidents they tend have worse injuries. E-bike users also tend to use their bikes more often and thus have more accidents with their bikes than people who ride their bikes less (looking at accidents per person rather than accident per mile).

Going based on accident rates, any license that e-bikes should have should also apply to bikes, e-scooters and likely also people who jog in cities. There is simply no data that support a law treating e-bikes as different from regular bikes, as long they are limited to 25 km/h. A motorcycle weighting 200kg+ and operating over 150+km/h is however a very different beast which the accident rates also demonstrate, which is why they need a proper license to operate safely among other human being.

In the former EU country of UK this is totally abused. I believe a vehicle can be capable of exceeding these limits, so long as they are enabled while on roads. So you can have a powerful ebike so long as there is a switch that makes it less powerful, and you switch it on while riding eg on a bike path.

Lots of people seem to ride with it disabled though, confident that if the police catch them, they just push the switch and pretend it was on.

This stems, AFAICT, from mobility scooters for the disabled. On pavements they have to be limited to 4mph for pedestrian safety, but on roads it is probably in fact safer to ride faster, which they do. Hence a flippable speed limiter.

Cars are so much worse in this regard. Most cars can easily go twice as fast as you would ever legally be able to drive on the street. You don’t even need a switch to go 100mph!

The problem is, of course, enforcement. If there is truly a speeding and safety problem with ebikes, then the existing laws around bikes, ebikes, and speed limits can be enforced to solve it. Most consumer-ready e-bikes are already speed limited. For example, many won’t do any motor assistance past 20mph. (E.g. a class 1 ebike)

I mostly agree, except in many cases (not all) cars abuse a different space than that operated by regular cyclists and pedestrians. Eg I won't have a car going fast down the pavement and hitting my elderly mother, not usually anyway. With these ebikes in the UK, they go anywhere they can fit.

Different menace I'd argue.

The fear that bikes might hit a disabled person on the pavement is an interesting case. I often see parents walking with a stroller on bike lanes (nice and flat, and often clear of snow), so many times in fact that I look up if there were any statistics on bikes hitting one and killing the helpless baby inside. I also don't see other pedestrians reacting to the situation as if the parents were putting the child in mortal danger.

However, try as I might I could not find a single case of infant being killed by a bike in my country. The only explanation I have is that thanks to the slow speed, bikers and e-bikers alike have time to slow down if there are a risk of a collision. It would be interesting to see UK statistics and hear if the same is true with elderly mothers?

I have personally been almost hit by an e-bike delivery driver riding on the pavement while looking at his phone. Same for going down bike paths the wrong way, or going through a red light.

In neither of these cases did we actually hit each other because I was alert. If I happened to be wearing headphones and deep in thought (arguably not best course of action on a pavement in a city but not wrong either), I'd be badly hurt.

I guess most people are alert enough to avoid the e-bikers, so accidents don't happen much, but they are still a menace (in my locale at least).

I have nothing against e-bikes as such, I own one in fact and it's a good piece of kit. I just think that as power goes up, enforcement should keep up.

I haven't ever seen a switch on a e-bike. In Sweden you would need a license plate if the vehicle is capable of exceeding the limit of 25 km/h, and operating such vehicle at any speed requires a driver license.

What we got that serve a similar purpose is 4 wheel "e-bikes", also called quadricycle. Basically cars that has their gearbox altered to only use gear 1 and 2, which by eu-classification put them in the same category as e-scooters. Very popular with teens since it allows them to drive without a driving license, and very accident prone. Looking at the statistics, those should require a license to operate.

To add to this: the Bosch systems can be set to a lower or higher limit but it needs to be taken to a Bosch dealer to do this. They don't give the software to any old Joe Schmoe (I tried)

Unless someone throws something on github of course ;)

Nitpick: that's a maximum of 25 km/h for assisted mode, if you're going a steep downhill you will obviously go higher than that.

Well yes, and so do regular bikes. It not uncommon to see bikes pass e-bikes downhill on some roads, and then have the e-bike pass the bike uphill. I also suspect (but got no numbers to support this) that e-bikes tend to be designed more often where the rider sits upright which has maximum air resistance, compared to many faster city bikes where the rider is leaning forward. Air resistance is a big thing if you want to go fast on a bike. A common argument in favor of e-bikes that I see is that they allow for upright ridding because the engine take cares of the increase air resistance.

> (Unlike as in the US, where it seems being able to steer it is sufficient to get your licence).

Source? I will gladly agree that standards should be greatly increased in the US for operating both four-wheeled and two-wheeled vehicles, and I much prefer driving in western European countries partly as a result, but this is an exaggeration that doesn't apply to the states I've lived in.

In several states, I think you just have to take a written test to get your Motorcycle license.

Could definitely have missed one but skimming this list it seems like Alabama is the only one.

https://www.cardosystems.com/blog/how-to-get-a-motorcycle-li...

Looks like others that allow skipping the skills test seem to only allow it if you've completely a separate safety course (no idea how comprehensive those safety courses or skill tests are).

Most states use the MSF Basic course for drivers with a normal drivers license who want to add a motorcycle endorsement. It's 10 hours classroom, 10 hours riding, so effectively a three day course though it's split up various ways.

MSF instructors can and will fail students. New motorcycle riders are usually experienced drivers, and the exceptions are almost always kids who've been riding dirt bikes for years.

Roads in the USA are much easier to ride motorbikes on than in Europe.

And riders ride their bikes as if they were cars. Lane splitting is not legal in many places. You can’t park as easily etc and there was far less commuting in the cities I lived in. Europe city motorcycling is more akin to cycling, a lot more assertive, more utility than leisure. Europe motorcycling in general needs great bikes and riders, which they have. Paris is great fun, but like anywhere one needs to be like a local. London is much worse. The worst anywhere is São Paulo, Brazil.

Ebikes and escooter with too much speed/power are generally regulated as motor scooters or motorbikes in many places. But is it policed? The Euro approach to limit ebike power and speed seems to work well. Bosch kit is amazing.

>Please do not take motorized 2 wheels lightly, an e-bike can kill you very easily.

So can a conventional bicycle. Roller skates and pogo sticks can too.

>E-Bikes should need a proper licence,

I wish people would stop advocating for the absolute bottom of the barrel technical competency wise people in places of political power to pass some sort of regulation on technology.

In a perfect world, lots of correctly done, statistically based regulation would be a good thing, but in the world we live in, the less regulation, the better.

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