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Comment by bgibbons | Hacker News Reader

Refusing to be on web cam without a compelling reason is a huge red flag by itself.

I very seldom feel inclined to refuse, but I even more seldom feel comfortable on camera. Which is to say in most circumstances I avoid being on camera when I can. I’ve been remote most of my career, nothing changed the last few years to introduce new stressors around this. I just don’t like being on video, or interacting with other people on video. It gives me a firm but unspecific sense of unease is unlikely to be “compelling” to anyone who doesn’t relate… so, huge red flag I guess? Not sure what you think it flags, but I’m glad you’re not requesting meetings with me.

I think if you're introducing yourself to people who'd like to hire you and haven't met you, it is normal etiquette to appear on camera. There is still a level of body language conveyed, even if it's just your face.

I think we all get not wanting to be on camera for every meeting, but surely it makes sense to present yourself on camera for the initial interview if you're able?

This implies that body language is accurate and useful which is not always the case. I'd argue that many who legitimately don't wish to be on camera have very good reasons for this. I do not enjoy being on camera or even talking on the phone. I also have ADHD which makes it very difficult to just sit still and listen/watch an AV feed for a significant period of time even if I know that what is occurring on that feed is very important. My brain literally doesn't care what my mind thinks/knows it's going to do what it wants/needs to do which is fidget, search for sources of stimulation, and in general do all kinds of things considered "rude" to do when having a conversation or attending a meeting. Nevermind that I'm absolutely still paying attention, but I can't JUST pay attention. A lot of this hesitation to appear on camera in situations like mine isn't because I don't actually like being on camera, I don't care, but the negative reactions me being on camera can cause because someone doesn't know me and my specific uh... "issues" means that I just prefer not do so if possible.

I don’t know about etiquette, but body language is generally not how I want to be viewed during a hiring process, on screen or in person. I’m not particularly talented at making appropriate eye contact, or not flailing inappropriately, or keeping my coffee mug from crashing on the floor. I’m very talented at engineering software. I’m sure many businesses would agree I’m not a good fit, and… well, too bad for them.

Yep yep yep.

I've made it clear to bossmang that I don't really do customer contact. I got badly burned out in technical support decades ago, and it's still baggage I carry around, so I simply do not have a "customer service voice".

I'm hired to develop software, and I will do that to the best of my ability, but if they ever ask me to help out on the support end, I've made it clear what they can expect.

"Now listen here, you little shit..."

Sure, I relate: but would you comply if asked for webcam on for an interview for a remote position?

Quoting myself: I very seldom feel inclined to refuse. That said, interviewing for my current position (fully remote team), I was given the option of video or voice call, and I chose voice. I chose that cautiously because I knew it might be offputting but I also knew it might be a good indicator of my prospective team’s culture if it had been offputting. Fortunately that wasn’t an issue!

And I now do a video chat about once a week, which isn’t particularly demanding, and it’s generally a positive experience because we work well together… but I do take an hour or two to decompress afterwards.

I would have chosen video chat, but otherwise it sounds likes we have a very similar perspective on this. Good point about using that moment as a team fit thing. Cheers

There have been good A/B studies showing significant changes in response rate to resumes with and without photos. How someone looks doesn't seem like it should be correlated with their ability to draw a picture or choose a search algorithm.

We’re not talking unconscious bias silliness here. We’re talking about literal fraud/misrepresentation and needing verification that someone is who they claim to be. Using our eyebulbs isn’t inherently problematic.

"unconscious bias silliness" so you're telling me that an interviewer is just as likely to hire someone who has visible issues sitting still/focusing on a video call as they are someone who sits perfectly still and gives their full 100% attention to the call? No, not a chance. When there are two candidates for a position at approximately equal skill levels when performing a video interview but one has ADHD that comes along with the inability to remain solely focused on one small screen and voice for an extended period of time you can guess which candidate is going to be picked the vast majority of the time. Dismissing such a huge issue as silliness is exactly the reason why many people who have issues similar to that do not want to perform video calls for interviews.

I think you're misunderstanding them. You two are basically discussing two (very important) topics.

On the topic of fraud prevention, the interviewer could simply ask the interviewee to be on camera for literally 5 seconds, then feel free to turn off video.

Again, this is based on an Upwork profile that already had a picture, so if discrimination was going to happen, it would be before the video interview stage anyway. This is just about a verification step, and in a platform like Upwork, refusing to be on camera for LITERALLY 5 seconds probably SHOULD be considered a big red flag.

Yes, unconscious bias is a silly thing to talk about when so many still people face outright discrimination and hostility, but I don't think GP meant unconscious bias.

The A/B studies are also used to prove discrimination that people usually won't admit to, not only to reveal unconscious bias.

I'm unsure if this is at all equivalent. I'm pretty sure I'd see someone in person before covid forced remote work (thankfully), physically, and that confirms the identity of who I'm talking to to a huge extent.

How you interact with someone is just as important, if not more important, than if they can choose the correct algorithm.

This is true.

It's also true that Upwork has many, many people who will present themselves as a single individual. Instead, they are actually an agency and you will get a rotating cast of developers. This becomes apparent the fifth time you explain the same thing to your contractor, who is actually not the person you explained it to the fourth time, or the third time, or on and on and on.

Video verification helps you ensure that you are getting what you paid for, and that your time explaining the brief and iterating on their work isn't wasted.

Refusing to show up on a webcam is undoubtedly correlated with liklihood of fraud and misrepresentation. I suppose "this is why we can't have nice things."

I adamantly am a camera off person but am shame to admit I do add my photo to resume, it really did make responses from companies night and day

Are you based in the US?

I actually think I've benefited from the reverse. I have a very Asian sounding last name (spelled completely different though) despite being of Russian-Dutch-English descent.

I've noticed in the age of remote work some people seem suprised when they first see me. I am now wondering if I am benefiting from the opposite problem of people correlating me with Asian stereotypes?

I worked a job for 3 years and never once turned on my camera. It worked out great. I even had my webcam off for my going away party.

> I worked a job for 3 years and never once turned on my camera. It worked out great. I even had my webcam off for my going away party.

But that's not quite the same as interviewing with the webcam off.

I've worked with clients in the past who have never seen my face in video. Had years long relationships with some of them without ever having seen each other on webcam, and it worked out great on both of our ends.

I even have (ex)founding partners in million$ companies that were sold or still exist who I never saw or spoke to via voice. Only text chat. I also have and had many colleagues I never saw or voice spoke to. Works fine; no one cares on either side.

But would you have refused to talk to them on video once for verification purposes?

I would have made it clear that I'd rather not be inconvenienced, and I would also find it insulting that my identity was in question given the publicizing I've done, the publication of my work, how I feel about the quality of my work for said clients and the existing positive relationships with the clients.

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