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Comment by wnolens | Hacker News Reader

I feel you here. I'm a relatively new NYC resident and worried that I'll be "ruined" forever. I've otherwise lived in Toronto and Seattle.

It really comes down to fear of change I think. Humans are very adaptable, and the same one can thrive in car-centric suburbs as they would in shoulder-to-shoulder metropolises. Given no constraints, you prefer city. But throw in kids (requirement for more space/better schools), or a dream job (passion), or a dying parent (obligation), or a lover.. and suddenly you're building a life in a completely different place. And it works.

At least I think/hope.. because outside of a busy city I am irritable and sad. But it sure would be nice to slow down on the treadmill/rat race a bit..

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I have lived in San Diego. I have spent time in Los Angeles. I have spent time in San Francisco. I am not a stranger to large cities.

I can say with certainty I will never live in one of these places. I won't even live in Pittsburgh, which is an order of magnitude smaller than any of these places. There's no escaping people. There's no escaping politics or bureaucracy. There's no way to escape petty crime, crazy people, and noise. You can't see the sky at night, there's never any "dark".

Everything is orders of magnitude more expensive in a city. $5000/month rent? And people think this is "reasonable"? I don't even pay a third of that on a mortgage on a 2400sq/ft house. With a nice yard, decent neighbors, a good school, low crime, low taxes, the works. Our night-time intruders are turkey, deer, the occasional black bear, raccoons, skunks, and screech owls.

Do I have to drive to get anywhere? Yes.

Do I get the highest-paying jobs? Do I have immediate access to cute little bodegas and trendy little shops and night life? No.

But I can let my kids go outside and play at night. I can leave my doors unlocked. Nobody breaks into my car and steals my stereo. I can leave my house with my garage door up and all my stuff inside, and my neighbors will call/text me to remind me.

Is this an adequate trade-off? For me, absolutely yes.

I get why people like living in big cities. I will never again live in one myself, though.

Drawn like moths, we drift into the city

The timeless old attraction

Cruising for the action

Lit up like a firefly

Just to feel the living night

Some will sell their dreams for small desires

Or lose the race to rats

Get caught in ticking traps

And start to dream of somewhere

To relax their restless flight

Somewhere out of a memory

Of lighted streets on quiet nights

https://youtu.be/6SQsv0JI1P8

The caravan thunders onward

Toward the distant dream of the city

The caravan carries me onward

On my way at last, on my way at last

> I get why people like living in big cities. I will never again live in one myself, though. I totally get your take as well. In fact.. sounds like a really nice life that I hope to live one day.

But perhaps it's your stage of life & social context that makes the difference (it does for me). If you were single, didn't have many friends/family (or they were all in the city), or were dedicated to a career/passion whose nexus is in a city.. suddenly you might be running towards those people and institutions ;)

It's not all about the cute bodegas. The sheer number of single women in my demographic nearby is worth inflated rent for the next few years. $5k for a single person is some maxima, I'm living alone in a big apartment in a nice/safe neighborhood for $3k, 2 blocks from the train. The salary possibility in NYC easily covers the delta to smaller cities/towns.

> Given no constraints, you prefer city.

That’s definitely not a given. I know a bunch of people that given no constraints they would live at the edge of a lake with the nearest city being 100+ miles away. But they get forced into a city by the need for a job, or the same constraints you laid out.

"you" refers to GP, so it's literally given.

> I feel you here. I'm a relatively new NYC resident and worried that I'll be "ruined" forever. I've otherwise lived in Toronto and Seattle.

Just out of curiosity, what do you think NYC has that Toronto or Seattle don't have? And what are you thoughts on Toronto vs. Seattle? Personally, I've lived in Toronto (which I loved), and visited Seattle for a few days (which I liked, but hard to say from a short visit), so curious to hear what others who have lived in all 3 think (especially since I'm planning to move to Seattle soon).

Recently moved to Seattle from NYC. I'm enjoying Seattle, but it's a joke of a city compared to NYC. Seattle's public transportation—while improving with light rail—pales in comparison. Seattle is, overall, pedestrian-hostile. There are neighborhoods that are themselves walkable, but sidewalks will disappear when walking between them, or you'll be forced into situations where you're uncomfortably close to high-speed traffic (e.g. the Ballard bridge).

Seattle has enough good food to keep me relatively happy (even pizza and bagels), but for any given cuisine, you might have one or two good options. Getting to them probably involves driving, and they're probably not open late or even open at all early in the week (maybe this is a pandemic artifact; I moved here in 2021). Seafood here is great, though. I think Seattle wins in that single category.

I think NYC's biggest win over Seattle (and every single other city in the US) is the combination of quantity, quality, and accessibility. You have some of the world's best food, shopping, culture, and jobs accessible to you at all hours of the day via a subway ride (or in many cases within walking distance). The city is your backyard: you don't need a huge apartment because there's a good chance you won't really be spending much time there.

That said, after 10 years there I grew tired of that lifestyle and wanted to spend more time outdoors and exploring the west coast. If you really enjoy the outdoors—hiking, skiing, mountain biking, climbing, etc.—then NYC is vastly inferior to Seattle. I may find myself back in NYC some day because I miss the things that it's the best at, but for now, I'm enjoying doing something different. I think it's very easy to fall into a hedonic routine in NYC.

> and they're probably not open late or even open at all early in the week (maybe this is a pandemic artifact; I moved here in 2021)

No, it's a Seattle thing. One of my major peeves with this city (and entire region) is how hard it is to find places that close later than 9pm, even in the summer when the days are really long.

I think the outdoors culture here is so strong that people don't really care about having things to do late at night in the city.

Eh, I think it's kind of an "everywhere-since-the-pandemic" thing after all.

Atlanta is the same way and we used to have a HOPPIN' late night scene with SO many good late night spots, now it's almost a struggle to get something even like fast food after 9/10pm. That may be slowly coming back though it seems like.

Houston too.

I grew up in NYC and currently live in Seattle. The appeal of Seattle over NYC is the outdoors, substantially cheaper housing (you can get a 4br detatched house in seattle that's a 20 minute bus ride to downtown for less than this median apartment price), and better weather but yeah the food doesn't really compare.

This said, I think LA wins over NYC in the food department outside of the very high end michilin type stuff and certain specific kinds of ethnic food like italian.

>> Recently moved to Seattle from NYC. I'm enjoying Seattle, but it's a joke of a city compared to NYC

Don't live in Seattle, but my friends who do live there joke that someday the people moving there from NYC and complaining about the city they just moved to will figure out that the airlines fly routes in both directions.

> Seattle is, overall, pedestrian-hostile

Seattle looooves to pat itself on the back for being pedestrian/bike/commuter-friendly … but it has a VERY low standard for "friendly."

They're all great and have something that the other two don't/can't have. I could go on for hours about each. Also this is a very personal/subjective question, so take with a grain of salt:

Toronto: It's Canada. Culture is different than the US. My friends and family are here. Since it's where I formed my personality, I like the people here way more. It's the only place I experience uncontrollable laughter in reaction to what someone said. The inner city is very cool without feeling like some over-discovered instagram location. In NYC every half decent bar or restaurant is packed with a lineup and costs 2x. Transit is okay, not great. But I hate Canadian suburbs, so to me the GTA is not hospitable (for me) outside of the rectangle of Humber river to Don Valley, waterfront to Eglinton. And income to cost of living ratio is so much lower compared to tech in the US, it's like.. minimum 10+ years of working life lower.

Seattle: A true gem of a place. Not overcrowded (yet, despite what people there say). Great music, bars, restaurants etc. You can get from middle of "city" to middle of wilderness in 1.5-2h, and be literally in a national geographic photo. Insane income:cost of living ratio (only slightly lower income than Bay/NYC, but cost of living significantly less). Transit okay, getting better, but not too useful inside the city. But it's a very monocultural place. So unless you find your "people" here, it can be quite boring/exclusive. I fraternized widely, but ultimately was left wanting for more socially. Also far-left politics are central to social culture here, so it's quite literally not a "safe space" to be anything but. I'm more of an "east-cost person", if that makes any sense.

NYC: One of a kind place in North America. Feels like you truly live _in_ the city, not just in your house/apartment with necessary excursions. It can be overwhelming with how many people there are and how densely they live, but to me that's something special. Cost of living is insane, but it doesn't buy you nothing. Subway system can feel archaic and let's you down often, but it also enables a special way of life for North America (car-less existence, a fixed 30 or 50 min ride from almost anywhere you'd need to go). A lot of double edged swords. The diversity of people is eye-opening. Toronto can feel more ethnically diverse - which is interesting in it's own way - but NYC is diverse in every other way too. I'm quite worried about having kids in NYC someday. From what I hear the school system is ruthless. I don't want my kids to undergo such stress. I think Toronto wins out huge for raising children.

Anyway.. bit of a ramble.

I couldn't figure out the kids in the US equation, so I left. Of course people can, but I couldn't.

> worried that I'll be "ruined" forever.

You will be. And that's OK. It's a good thing: nothing else can compete with New York, so you're relieved of the pressure of equalling/one-upping it.

What do you do when you've summited the highest mountain? You take up scuba diving.

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