Comment by throwaway654329 | Hacker News Reader

Comment by throwaway654329 | Hacker News Reader

Parent Full thread

throwaway654329

In a civilized country such as many developed countries in Europe a life sentence is roughly fifteen to twenty years. That is a remarkably long time. It is an extreme punishment.

There are exceptions for psycho killers like Anders Breivik. Ulbrich would be unlikely to fall into the Breivik category. His prison conditions would not be so brutal either, see again Breivik for an example. If you believe he deserves life, do you believe he deserves brutality in prison?

He is by many international legal definitions a political prisoner found guilty of what appear as obviously relative political crimes and likely even absolute political crimes. His politics were core to his supposed criminal activities in the war on some drugs. His investigation and prosecution was tainted. Several of the involved officers committed blatant crimes for personal gain for which they were later arrested, charged, and convicted. Those same state agents appear to have alleged the murder for hire, which is somehow not entrapment and yet considered credible.

In 1769, William Blackstone said “the law holds that it is better that 10 guilty persons escape, than that 1 innocent suffer (innocent person be convicted).”

Morally and in principle, especially in a tainted investigation with misbehaving Government agents, the guilty should be let go. Perhaps you don’t agree - either way, there is an appearance of a two tier legal system.

The system that jails Ross but lets very wealthy pharmacy company owners off with thousands of confirmed deaths, people who produced, marketed, and sold similar and sometimes identical drugs exclusively for profit are punished with a fine.

> He is by many international legal definitions a political prisoner

No, this is bullshit. He committed several serious crimes and is now paying the price for that.

Yes, reform the legal system sensibly. No, we don't let drug kingpins who have built up a serious crime organisation walk.

Your claim doesn’t invalidate my claim. It may be that you personally disagree and that’s your political right. Like the man said: you’re entitled to your opinion but not your own facts. Take a look at the definition of relative and absolute political offenses. It’s not what is popularly understood. One need not be Che to be a political prisoner. For example, a person may become one after suffering torture in interrogation by the state or a proxy of the state after a completely normal criminal activity.

Tell that last part to the families of people who have died in the opioid crisis. Drug kingpin is in the eye of the beholder, or prosecution team as we see. For example: Have you watched the CEOs of several major pharmaceutical companies walk with fines? Large fines, paid out of the very profits made from the sales of drugs that killed the customers. Too bad for Ross that he wasn’t smart enough to hire lawyers, and wear a suit, he might be as free as Zuckerberg or the CEO of any of the major Pharma companies making record settlements this year.

Rather than reforming the legal system alone, why not free those harmed by the system we agree is in need of reform? Start by freeing all political prisoners.

> Your claim doesn’t invalidate my claim.

Yes, it does. Ross Ulbricht is not a political prisoner, he is a run of the mill criminal prisoner. Sorry if that offends you.

> Too bad for Ross that he wasn’t smart enough

Too bad for Ross that he laughed in the face of the authorities, deliberately built a criminal trafficking organisation and profited from the trade of known illegal substances, while attempting to order hits on people. He's a scumbag.

This equivocation about the pharma industry is utterly laughable, the situation isn't in the slightest bit comparable.

> Start by freeing all political prisoners.

Which would leave Ross Ulbricht still in jail because he's not one of those.

Does the U.S. justice system in your estimation have any political prisoners? If so, could you provide a name of a current prisoner?

In my view the answer is clearly yes. One kind is a prisoner of conscience. Prisoners of conscience are not claiming innocence, for example, rather usually the status is a commentary on the unjustness of laws or of punishment. He probably would never be considered as such by Amnesty International because of the extremely questionable murder for hire charges. Just a hint of a such a thing can sink an Amnesty endorsement of a prisoner.

There are other kinds of political prisoners. One can be a common criminal and be fairly and correctly considered a political prisoner due to political circumstances. The war on drugs is a political circumstance which results in disproportionate sentences. Consider that nearly all terrorism and espionage charges generally fall into the classic categories of relative or absolute political crimes. Take a look at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_prisoner and note: “A political prisoner is someone imprisoned for their political activity. The political offense is not always the official reason for the prisoner's detention.”

In his case the majority of his charges are drug or conspiracy charges which are a major political issue for most of the western world at this time and at the time of his incarceration. Furthermore his incredible habit of journaling clearly shows his political views as they extensively detail the war on drugs, and his attempts to allow people to have access to a market for drugs that is safer than the street. American drug laws as seen by most of the rest of the world are insanely harsh in their punishment.

Consider The Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe definition c, d, and e from the Wikipedia link. Do you dispute the judge sentenced him harshly to send a message to others? Do you believe his trial wasn’t marred by unbelievable corruption where several involved officers were arrested and jailed for their conduct?

He may very well be a scumbag, my claims aren’t a defense of him personally. Rather please try to read them as a good faith condemnation of the American judicial and American penal system. End the war on drugs, and end the insanely bad conditions for all prisoners. No one should have to suffer what he is suffering in prison, nor a tainted process which led him to prison. No one deserves double life sentences only to be beaten and (almost certainly, if rumors are to be believed) raped in prison for refusing to join a prison gang as a matter of literal personal political beliefs.

But you can tell me he’s not a political prisoner and that he gets what he deserves. That mostly tells me about you, and not about him.

There's nothing unjust about imprisoning drug traffickers, organised crime bosses and those that seek to put out hits on their enemies.

Particularly that last part. Sorry if that offends you.

You can moralise and equivocate all you like, he is not being held for his views or his politics, he is not being held for political activity, but for his clear criminal actions, which include attempts to have people murdered. That's not 'political'.

> There's nothing unjust about imprisoning drug traffickers, organised crime bosses and those that seek to put out hits on their enemies.

There is when the state breaks its own principles and rules, that is the point. It is literally unjust, and the states behavior must be beyond reproach.

> Particularly that last part. Sorry if that offends you.

I am not offended, I asked my questions, which you dodged, in good faith.

I agree with you that murder for hire must be treated seriously. Part of why I find this unjust is that he should have been tried on that charge first and foremost. Yet it looks like it was primarily used to harm his character, and it was not formally brought and successfully won by the state. If the guy did, he should not escape trial for an explicit charge, do you disagree?

> You can moralise and equivocate all you like, he is not being held for his views or his politics, he is not being held for political activity, but for his clear criminal actions, which include attempts to have people murdered. That's not 'political'.

Are you asserting that the drug war, isn’t political?

Are you furthermore asserting that assassinations aren’t inherently political in that context?

Political isn’t a get out of jail free card, and I am not equivocating. I firmly believe he still should stand trial for the murder for hire charges, don’t you?

> Yes, reform the legal system sensibly. No, we don't let drug kingpins who have built up a serious crime organisation walk.

He ran a website. I don't call that a kingpin

The idea "it was just a website" is so absolutely weird.

Indeed, it was the realization of his political ideals, no matter how wacky they may seem.

He created a market place which was available as a tor hidden service. It was primarily a website and a communications hub, this makes it a kind of meta-criminal enterprise where he enabled other criminals to sell often illegal drugs, though there was apparently much more.

The stated political goal at the time with using a website was to reduce violence at the time of a transaction. By that alone it was clearly more than a website.

>The system that jails Ross but lets very wealthy pharmacy company owners off with thousands of confirmed deaths, people who produced, marketed, and sold similar and sometimes identical drugs exclusively for profit are punished with a fine.

Yep, because pharma companies all respect the monopoly of the state. The state can ban any molecule they please and pharma companies will comply. The state could not do anything whatsoever to silkroad so it unleashed its full wrath on a website administrator.

I understand the why - the state felt challenged - ultimately when the state is the supposed victim, the crime is inherently political. It’s nice to see someone in this thread acknowledge the political nature of his situation and thus his status; elsewhere in the discussion there is some pushback.

My primary point is that the Sackler’s company actions have a body count that is sky high, and they will walk with a monetary fine. This is because they accept the primacy of the state, and the victims are not as important and it may be dealt with as a financial compensation issue. That result is as much about the primacy of the state as it is about the standing of the Sackler’s in American high society. In other words it looks like two justice systems: one for the rich, and one for the proles.

In Ulbricht’s case, the hypothetical dead in the murder for hire allegation are known to not exist - the state admits to fabricating all of it. Well not all of it, they claim he was aware, and that he believed their lies. I wouldn’t be surprised if that part was a lie too, since they are admitted liars to achieve their stated goals.

>company actions have a body count that is sky high

This is not about victims in the population AT ALL. The state could care less about people beeing murdered if it dosen't affect it's power over said people. It was always just about the state's totalitarian power over trading and Ross' complete subjucation of that power.

Who even are the victims in the Ulbricht case?

“The people” - of course. So you and me! Everyone we know! Society!

But really: The state who has to expend resources (gotta pay for the officers time), the courts (he is costing them time by asking for a trial!), the prosecution (they probably had to work hard to hide the real sources of intelligence so it could be laundered into a court), the people who bought bad drugs through the market (in theory, I don’t think he was charged with anything specific like this), Ross’s family and friends (isn’t it really their fault for raising him so badly? Nope; but hard to miss an opportunity to victim blame), a lot of Tor relay operators DDoS’es by the Eff-Bee-eye to do intersection and circuit collapsing attacks (yes; they do this and more), almost certainly some NSA XKeyscore specialists were consulted (talk to some of them about it!), the DEA agents who defend our way of life (including the ones that went to prison for corruption in this very case: look it up, it’s amazing!), the secret service (again the ones who went to prison for corruption in this very case!), people who had to sit through the trial and lost faith in their entire country’s justice system (this isn’t most of hacker news which is very “law and order” which means cops can break the rules if the ends justify the means) and of course the children (no specific children, don’t ask so many questions). Never forget. Ahem, I mean, think of the children.

Meanwhile Ross is probably having his ass beaten or sexually assaulted in prison right now for refusing to join a white power group to save himself as a matter of principe. But don’t worry, this is fine because he did it to himself and think of the victims. The poor state, if they hadn’t gotten him, they might have lost the drug war. Good thing they racked up this political win!

There’s a war on drugs my friend, and to paraphrase bill hicks: every time you’re high, you’re winning it!

the monopoly of the state is the victim

Reply on news.ycombinator.com