I imagine IRC people will just call all of these distractions. They are in a shrinking minority of people.
I imagine IRC people will just call all of these distractions. They are in a shrinking minority of people.
> I like being able to paste code into chat and have it syntax highlighted.
Use a pastebin, there are plenty out there. See: https://paste.sr.ht/ or http://ix.io/ or https://paste.rs/ or https://bpa.st/ or https://gist.github.com/ or https://paste.ubuntu.com/ and many, many more.Regardless of there being a better tool for syntax highlighting and holding small linkable snippets of code (so that logic doesn't need to be more to download when opening your chat) it also keeps it _out_ of the chat so it's not polluted. People not being able to instantly insert 20 lines of text is a _good_ thing. So, link to the resource don't embed it.
> I like being able to ping people so that they get a notification on their phone, and likewise, I like people to be able to ping me
In the article you're responding to Drew directly mentions their suggestions for Push Notifications. I don't mean to sound facetious but, did you read this (article) in it's entirety? > Occasionally, I like to send a GIF
See above: link to the resource, don't embed it.Element (Matrix) and Slack will render something like this as 3-5 lines with the expansion option to see all of it. I'm sure discord will eventually do the same too.
This is clearly preferable to using a different application entirely to view the snippet.
It's only IRC where some naive clients expand this out into 20 something messages where this is a problem. And since it's not part of the protocol, you're at the whims of the sender's client for how it's handled, so it's not like you can install a sufficiently smart client to render it how you like in all cases.
I'd also suggest your perspective of how much a problem even that 20 lines of text is is distorted by being in fast moving public chatrooms, like your typical Linux distro channel. In my small team or friends chat, it's perfectly fine
The same also applies to the gif. If this one bothers you, most clients even have the options to disable inline images, so the sender gets to choose. Also it means you just get the image file, and not whatever cruft the popular image host of this 5 year period is doing to monetise.
Image hosts and pastebins also seem more fragile than chat services. I've occasionally gone through old messages that link to pastie or similar and the context is gone.
Sadly true. While I don't use IRC much, looking at older posts from fora without on-forum file storage and I just see photos roughly like this Imgur example (https://imgur.com/NOnf.jpg). Heck, even older HN posts suffer from the same problem.
I can of course see the appeal of all those features, but at least for me it translates into a much worse UX in the end.
The users then use other services which have these features and the irc users claim some grand conspiracy to kill open protocols.
Discord does this already.
I'm no stranger to the IRC protocol (in fact one of my first submissions to this site 12 years ago in 2010 was an introduction to the protocol written as part of building an Android client that was my side project at the time), but I have no interest in putting in the time to make an IRC client with the experience I'd like in 2022, which is clearly a much lower bar on matrix when Element, nheko, Cinny, FluffyChat and Fractal have all managed it.
(Not affiliated, just a happy user.)
That's not a solution, that's a bad and inconvenient workaround. Having to use an external service just to share a couple lines of code is horrible for usability. Funnily enough, its also exactly the thing that IRC users complain about when the matrix bridge converts multi-line messages to links.
I assume you're trying to say this is hypocritical, but it isn't.
The problem with multi-line messages becoming links is that the message is the context of the question. You have to reach for a browser just to read what the other person wanted to say.
Things like images and pastebins are ancillary to the message. You read the text part, decide whether you want to engage with it further, and then if you do you reach for a browser to see the image or pastebin.
Compare:
<h> hey guys im trying to install blub on ubuntu but it keeps complaining that my splines aren't reticulated. full error here: https://paste.rs/id123
with: <h[m]> hey guys... (full message at https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/r0/download/matrix.org/id123)
That last one is an actual example from an OFTC channel that's bridged to Matrix. It truncated at just two words because the original message had a newline after "guys".There's nothing to file a bug about. The bridge does not (and can not without some AI or heuristics which are both fallible) know where the relevant part of the message ends and the log spew begins, so a message with a one-line description and fifty lines of logs is treated the same as a message with fifty-one lines.
I wonder what else is missing besides paste and chat there.
Edit: but the manual does: https://man.sr.ht/
did you feel that you were offering solutions or something?
Because IRC works. It's open, battle tested and has huge support by an endless amount of tools and documentation. There is not much reason to not use if all you wanna do is chat.
> I like being able to paste code into chat and have it syntax highlighted
> I like being able to ping people so that they get a notification on their phone
> Occasionally, I like to send a GIF.
That's the job of your client, not the communication-protocol.
That's not what I want. I want modern features like text formatting, links, images, file sharing (don't mention DCC), threads, linking to messages, persistent history, and even emoji reactions.
And when I say "modern" I mean "modern relative 1995 which is where IRC proponents are still stuck".
It allows you to disable threads in your UI but that's useless since then you can't reply to people by posting after them since for them it goes to main chat instead of the thread (instead of, y'know, just being the next message).
Also IRC definitely supports links, haha.
Why though?
> Also IRC definitely supports links, haha.
Oh how do you set the text of a link? Do IRC clients support markdown syntax these days?
How about encryption?
for everything else there are plugins in your client for OMEMO (what signal is based on) and OTR (which is purely session based).
Handling this as a third-party implementation for E2EE is probably the only true way to gain trust anyway. If your provider provides the infrastructure and the client then how can you really trust it?
My network forces TLS: https://darkscience.net
Forcing people to "do what you want" is against the spirit of open standards.
I believe it is hard to get right, and only worthwhile on 1:1 communication, it doesn't work well at all on large chat rooms, which is what IRC is.
Regardless, if you don't want E2EE to be handled by a plugin- it is possible to make a client with it baked in.
There is no company that will stop you creating a third-party client unlike slack/discord which are extremely hostile to those endeavors by comparison.
EDIT: If you downvote without replying I'm just going to assume you're ideologically opposed to open standards, because I'm not sure what else I can take from it.
You can't downvote direct replies.
---
Speaking about standards; have you looked at IRCv3? Is there anything specific that you feel is not being addressed?
Encryption (to my mind) is better handled outside of the spec itself, just like HTTP vs TLS wrapped HTTP (HTTPS) where the "TLS" has no bearing at all on how HTTP is implemented.
IRCv3 is attempting to address the persistence issues, though many people like the lack of persistence in general.
I don't want to guess at what your concerns are, but more generally; have you looked at the spec?
I even learned today that irssi has an OTR module by default! On Debian systems you have to install irssi-plugin-otr but once you have that and irssi you can just `/load otr` and `/otr init` in a query and that's it, you have E2EE.
This is handled client side though, so I suppose if your clients cannot agree on a protocol you'll be left with nothing. I'm not sure that's really the responsibility of the server though, since we're talking E2E after all.
Then you use private messages as a way to talk to someone without disturbing, or away from the noise, of the channel - still not for really private conversations ; for this you don't need encryption, you need end-to-end encryption, but at this point you'd rather use a messaging platform rather than a chat platform.
It's fucking slow.
IRC has been around a lot longer than most of the projects which have sprung up in the same space, and IRC views their features with skepticism rather than being the eternal trend-follower. If IRC had followed every trendy chat feature for the past 34 years then it would be a hulking monstrosity by now.
There is wisdom in moderation. A communication method can be effective without facilitating every style of communication -- often moreso. I'll note that you're unable to embed a GIF or highlight code or send an emoji reaction on your Hacker News comments, but we seem to be having this conversation in relative ease despite that.
Different people value different things. Matrix is there if you want a more "modern" option.
This is a false dichotomy between "you have to receive annoying pings" and "there's no notification system in your chat system".
What actually happens in real life is that chat systems, even proprietary ones, give you control over what notifications you receive (and when you receive them). Discord, in particular, gives you significantly more fine-grained control than any FLOSS tool that I've ever seen.
Not even using comical exaggeration either, I'd say the user counts are pretty dead on 10x less now, give or take a few thou. Back then EFNet, Undernet, DALNet had like 100k users each. Barely getting over the 10k hump these days.
> You might like pinging people so they get a notification on their phone, but they might not like being on the other end of your ping :)
Notification settings aren't stuck in 1988 too, if you don't want to be pinged in 2022 that's on you :P
What does it matter? If you go on IRC now every channel is idle, no chat, just joins quits and parts, boring, dead.
> If the hundred or ten people you want to talk to are there,
They're not, and haven't been in 10 years. I'd love to get back into IRC but there's no IRC to go back to.
Not my experience at all. The channels I'm in have had a fairly stable number of users for at least the last decade. These are channels with hundreds or even thousands of users. There is lots of discussion in these channels every day. Sometimes so much I can't keep up with it if I'm there participating. I'm in mostly tech related channels, though.
I don't love Discord or Slack and there are a lot of things I miss about IRC, but the amount of sandpaper around getting people who are less than extremely forgiving of Computer Stuff to use it adroitly is one. Two chat platforms is already one too many for me, and IRC doesn't really make the cut for a third anymore because I too am becoming less forgiving of Computer Stuff as I get older, too.
That's a fundamental disagreement. I know some people like tightly walled gardens where there can only be one client and you're stuck with its limitations. Personally, I despise those systems and will do everything to avoid them.
> Consistency is valuable
Consistency is not valuable in this context, it is a straightjacket. I want a client which works exactly the way I want, which is likely different from what you want. So we need probably different clients, or at least an extremely configurable one.
This is why email is so wonderful and I use it above all else. I can have my client which I love and others can have their clients which they love and I find unusable but we can all be happy.
The idea that IRC might be better was why I clicked on this thread in the first place, before I really parsed the srht part of it, 'cause my values absolutely do not overlap with theirs. (Which is fine. Like what you like!)
People have different needs and expectations, so why shouldn't different clients for different people exist?
I'm not saying somebody who only accepts text-based email is wrong, mind--do as thou wilt and all. I am saying that the more barriers you present to being communicated with, the less reasonable it is to expect people to communicate with you. IRC makes it too difficult to communicate in modes I've come to expect as normal, so I'm just not gonna do that these days.
One doesn't need to keep anything in mind if one just has two different clients for the two user groups. And there are IRC clients, such as thelounge or irccloud (ok.. more than just a client), that offer things like inline images/audio, link preview, etc. (and wouldn't be hard to add missing things there). On the protocol level they just send urls in the irc messages, which falls back nicely for the other user group. I send images, pastes, etc. all the time on IRC it's just I don't want my client to render any of them inline - I want to decide if I look at something or not, while you want a client that does render everything inline for the most part.
PS: My spam filter judges html emails rather harshly :P
Because the point of a conversation is to communicate. Your client is changing the meaning of what I am sending to you, and I have to know that to effectively communicate with you. I value clarity, and IRC doesn't offer me this without knowing what the other client is doing. I do not trust a normal, representative user to click on every relevant link and internalize it from there, because my experience is that people don't. On the other hand, being able to post a snippet makes it part of the conversation and not a reference, and in my experience means people are more likely to actually read the thing. The assumption that I should just throw URLs at you and you will parse them, either through a computer or mentally, and do the right thing with them increases the lossiness of communication, and adds to my mental stack. My mental stack is tall enough already for me.
In my experience from platform to platform it's a difference of kind, and frankly? It's also not one I really want to be dealing with myself on the sending end more generally. I don't like the bouncer paradigm and I'm not paying irccloud to host one for me when I can do so myself but doing so myself is annoying and work that other platforms do not demand of me. And I'm not going to a pastebin website when I can literally drag a code file in and click "post as snippet". It's slower and it's unpleasant. A sufficiently smart client could solve these things, sure--but Slack and Discord already do them, and the 99% case are there and not on IRC.
I am not, to be totally clear, saying you're wrong to like what you like. I've run IRC servers many times and I used them steadily for about fifteen years. But I have learned, personally and for me, that the things users seem to value on IRC makes those folks harder for me to communicate with as we've normed (for lack of a better term) rich experiences in group conversations. And if you're cool with that, that's totally fine. It's a tradeoff, not a moral thing. It does also means that (not that you're doing it, but some IRC defenders in this thread have definitely logged on) incredulity that Nobody Wants To Use IRC just isn't reasonable. It's not a friendly platform unless your values are its values. Mine aren't anymore, so I don't use it.
But I think you are overthinking it by a lot. If you were to use IRC, you should just use a modern "magical" IRC clients and not worry about what happens in the background (and btw it's not just "could" but "does".. there are clients that do all that already - where you can just drag and drop stuff in and it will magically do the right thing). And I am willing to bet that in other instances you already do operate that way. Unless your mail client is very broken it will send a plain text version of your email along with the html email. Do you worry there too that I am actually just looking at the plain text version of your email and not with the intended html formatting? Or do you worry that the person you are talking to on slack might just be connected via matterircd via IRC (or directly via IRC back before slack did the bait 'n switch) and not see any of your snippets, images, etc.? Which btw. I am totally doing despite how much it butchers everything - I just cannot stand that UI (and neither can my rather old laptop).
It totally does, though. If I write an emoji thumbsup, and the recipient only sees a tofu box, they won't know if I'm agreeing, disagreeing, or saying something else.
If I'm participating in a heterogeneous environment, I need to refrain from including any mission-critical information in a form that can't be read by all of the participants. And since writing the same information twice is usually too much work, the extended functionality winds up completely unused, or at least only gets used for low-value spam.
> Or do you worry that the person you are talking to on slack might just be connected via matterircd via IRC
Yes, I do worry about that. If I find out that one of my coworkers is using a Slack client that doesn't implement all the functionality in the reference client, and can't just talk them out of it, then I'll have to make sure not to use anything that they can't see.
I might even start doing an IRC bridge myself, in fact, since at that point there's really no actual purpose in running a chat client with a bunch of functionality that I cannot use.
A major part of Slack's value is that this is very rare. Almost everyone just uses the reference implementation.
Another way to say that is IRC helps filter out the worst of Eternal Eternal September. (Meaning nothing against you personally! No disrespect intended.)
(FWIW, it's a slowly growing minority.)
Say what you want about these services being privacy infringing and proprietary (trust me, I don't like them either) but let's not be deluded. Their predecessors will die.
I am :) . I've found that the discussions I've had on IRC or read on mailing lists are typically higher quality, and more interesting than anywhere else.
The world is not moving on, IRC is very much here to stay. It works way too well for this sort of thing and people like being able to have their client set up exactly right. It's just heavy iPhone users that left and once Apple allows web push iPhone users will be back on IRC again.
I run ZNC+Palaver and get push notifications on my iPhone; but I also run ZNC on my own machine somewhere, which is a cost and a setup most people don't usually have to bother with.
One solution for casuals is probably IRCCloud; since IRCCloud will give you the same experience as mine for free, but will disconnect you if you're inactive (unless you're paying).
Irccloud also precludes all of the nice features you might get if you're running your own clients... so, YMMV.
I don't doubt that IRC is here to stay, but I've noticed more and more people moving from IRC to Matrix. Nix, the wgpu-rs guys, I believe the blender devs, and I believe the GHC devs are all on Matrix now.
(No affiliation, I just like the service)
> Occasionally, I like to send a GIF.
Some people don't like large blocks of text or images pushing other messages completely off screen.
Don't try to solve social problems by removing useful technical features from tools.
Thankfully, nobody is. We're simply using existing tooling without said "features".
So options for people that have different usage patterns do exist.
The Lounge can do that also.
They think PRs and pull requests are a distraction and all should happen in mailing list.
If you host on sourcehut, you want these things
Personally all the people I want to talk to still use IRC, so I'll use it to.