I'm staunchly pro regulation but this even I can't understand. Like someone just did SELECT * FROM GunOwnersDB and pushed is straight to the web.
https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/guns/procon/g...
> An expert on crime gun patterns, ATF agent Jay Wachtel says that most guns used in crimes are not stolen out of private gun owners' homes and cars. "Stolen guns account for only about 10% to 15% of guns used in crimes," Wachtel said. Because when they want guns they want them immediately the wait is usually too long for a weapon to be stolen and find its way to a criminal.
> In fact, there are a number of sources that allow guns to fall into the wrong hands, with gun thefts at the bottom of the list. Wachtel says one of the most common ways criminals get guns is through straw purchase sales.
Please search the FBI and ATF online data for people arrested and or convicted of straw purchases.
Then tell me how serious they are about stopping it.
How are there so many repeat offenders that are violent with guns?
It seems to be some kind of trend to make guns a white-collar crime or something. Like, if you don't file the right paperwork before loaning someone a pistol at the range, then it's a crime; but if you mug someone its the gun's fault.
Also see why some gun laws are written in an extremely obfuscated and convoluted manner, for example the law that became a point of contention in State v. Rittenhouse.
Abramski v. United States suggests that SCOTUS recognizes that straw purchases are illegal. Although, I guess the current SCOTUS isn't above ignoring precedent that is popular with the people.
I assume you are referring to roe v wade, which is a case of where the precedent was wrong ín the first place (Abortion was pretty much banned everywhere in common law, so there was no precedent of it being an unenumerated right, for example) and was kept as a precedent because it was a precedent (ignoring the lack of underlying constitutionality)
Isn't this always the court's opinion when it overturns precedent?
Ask people if they want gun laws enforced, and they say yes. Ask people if they like it when prosecutors charge a guy with 30 crimes for committing one act of armed robbery, and many start singing a different tune.
In this case though, straw purchases _are_ the main crime and there is a real lack of enforcement for that particular crime.
Such a subcrime would be a "lesser included offense"; you can charge for both offenses, but you can't get a conviction on both of them at once.
What this discussion touches on is not multiplicity but unreasonable multiplication of charges (at least in my jurisdiction we call it that). The test here is not the logical question of whether one necessitates the other by definition; it's the factual question of whether the offenses are part of substantially the same transaction. For example, a prosecutor might charge perjury, fraud, and larceny, wrt someone swearing to some materially false fact and fraudulently obtaining someone else's property with intent to permanently deprive them of it. These three offenses are not subsets of one another, but are closely related; it isn't logically necessary to commit perjury to commit fraud, in the abstract, but in a particular case that might be the mechanism by which one commits fraud. In my jurisdiction, UMC charges can stay on the charge sheet (perhaps the jury finds guilt on one but not all?) but, if convicted of more than one, they are merged for sentencing.
if a straw purchased gun is used in a crime, I'd be surprised if it didn't get investigated.
Well, let's say the original purchaser happens to be suspected of a crime (completely unrelated to a straw purchase, let's say bank robbery) and during a search of that purchaser's house, federal agents find a receipt for a check with "Glock 19" written on the memo line, it'll get their attention [0]. Very likely scenario :)
Other than that, good old fashioned surveillance plus a getting a confession [1]. I've also heard ads on the radio for a tipline to tell cops about straw purchases. No idea how well that works, though.
0 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abramski_v._United_States#Fact...
1 - https://www.justice.gov/usao-edpa/pr/philadelphia-woman-conv...
This is usually resolved by not adding the jail times for the crimes, but by doing MAX(a, b, ...) on them. Prosecutors will suddenly only care about the most important ones.
The gun problem is synonymous with the Republican problem.
Because blaming Republicans is just a canned argument at this point, can you unpack the mechanism a bit more? Are Democrats trying really hard to fund ATF, FBI, etc and Republicans are blocking it? Can you substantiate this claim with examples? I don't necessarily doubt it, but without substance this just reads like vapid flamebait.
A straw purchase is when a gun is purchased on behalf of someone else. The person buying the gun isn't using their own money, or the person they're giving it to has traded them something of value.
A gift doesn't involve an exchange of reciprocal value. In other words, I can legally take you into a gun store, let you shop, buy the gun for you, then hand it to you. In practice, a gift purchase is almost always when the recipient isn't there, because it looks like a straw purchase.
Ironically, if you take someone shopping to buy them a gun as a gift, by law you're the one that's supposed to have the background check run - not the recipient. Almost all FFLs will deny the sale if you tell them that you're buying it as a gift for someone who is present at the time, and there is no easy and legal way to run a background check on the intended recipient.
If memory serves, a cop was convicted a few years ago of a straw purchase after buying a "blue label" (police discount price) Glock for someone else. That person gave the cop the money, the cop bought it, then gave it to the person. The actual buyer in that case was not a prohibited person, and the straw purchase itself was the only crime committed.
> Ironically, if you take someone shopping to buy them a gun as a gift, by law you're the one that's supposed to have the background check run - not the recipient.
That is contrary to what is on ATF Form 4473 [0]. Form 4473, question 21.a., asks if the purchaser is the actual transferee of the firearm. The form makes it very clear that it is a crime to answer "yes" if the buyer is purchasing the firearm to transfer to another person.
[0] https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/4473-part-1-firearms-trans...
It's more of a gray area when it's an intrafamilial transfer.
As far as actually catching perpetrators? Again, without a database its usually down to undercover work and tips.
https://giffords.org/lawcenter/gun-laws/policy-areas/crime-g...
https://giffords.org/lawcenter/state-laws/trafficking-straw-...
https://www.fox32chicago.com/news/56-arrests-dozens-of-narco...
I have my doubts that in the situation that you described that there would be interest and motivation to prosecute, but if that buddy had gone on to commit a felony, or this was a repeated offense, then they would use warrants, subpoenas, and other standard prosecutorial tools to try to find the cache, get electronic records, and compel witnesses to testify. As someone else noted, all that's required is falsifying the the purchase details (Abramski vs US).
Nuance is required. In Florida, for example, it's legal for person to person private sale of firearms. There are restrictions that you're legally obligated to follow. Pulled this quick list from a search; https://www.pumphreylawfirm.com/blog/can-i-sell-a-gun-privat.... "Straw purchases" then means there has to be intent to provide it to someone free of charge (hard to prove) in addition to providing the firearm to someone for which it is illegal for them to own one. Otherwise it's merely a private sale.
This isn't a very good definition of a straw purchase. Buying a gun as a gift for someone is legal (federally, at least) and usually not considered a straw purchase. It's a straw purchase if you aren't the actual buyer, but are acting as an agent for somebody else, whether or not they could have bought the gun themselves legally, and whether or not money changes hands. It is, of course, up to the prosecution to prove you were acting as an agent rather than gifting, or buying for yourself and then later deciding to resell.
Straw purchases can happen if you are selling privately too. You should take a few steps to make sure the buyer is legit. Ask to see a concealed carry permit or FOID card. Or ask for a driver's license, and put the info down on a bill of sale that you then both sign. Keep the bill of sale forever, in case the gun should ever be stolen or used in a crime - it can help get the gun back to the new owner if the ATF does a trace.
Nope - it doesn't matter whether or not the actual buyer can legally purchase or possess it. A straw purchase is a crime regardless.
> You should take a few steps to make sure the buyer is legit.
Morally, yes. Practically, no.
You're only committing a crime if you know or should reasonably know the person you're selling to is prohibited. You have no legal duty to ask, and asking only proves that you considered the possibility, and could be construed as evidence that you were suspicious.
In college I would find deals on guns on Backpage, buy them cheap, and then resell them at a much higher listed price.
No background checks were required for private sales, so all I had to check was that the person had a driver's license for the correct state when I sold it, and even then no bill of sale or info was required.
Make your selling process known, and you'll get some very sketchy buyers that are willing to pay high prices, and it's all technically legal as the seller as you don't even need to ask if the buyer is legally able to purchase a firearm, and it helps fund college tuition.
The way it works with firearms, purchasing a gun on behalf of somebody else (not as a gift) is illegal regardless of that other person's legal status as a gun owner. If you and I are both allowed to buy and own guns but for whatever reason agree that you will give me money and I'll buy a gun for you, that's illegal.
I've known people who buy and sell quite a few guns, and even though there was no legal requirement for them to do so, this was their policy. Show them a matching permit to acquire or carry permit and driver's license, or they wouldn't sell a gun. Nothing was written down, but if you weren't willing to show matching paperwork and an ID, they wouldn't sell it to you. And I think in a few cases, if the buyer was being unusually squirrely and evasive, they didn't even get that far.
Very, very few gun owners have any desire to sell guns to prohibited persons.
21.a. Are you the actual transferee/buyer of the firearm(s) listed on this form and any continuation sheet(s) (ATF Form 5300.9A)? Warning: You are not the actual transferee/buyer if you are acquiring the firearm(s) on behalf of another person. If you are not the actual transferee/buyer, the licensee cannot transfer the firearm(s) to you.
If you answer No to this question, the transfer cannot continue.
Cite: https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/4473-part-1-firearms-trans...
"Oh, gee, I just bought the gun on Tuesday and sold it on Thursday for no particular reason. It just happens that the gun appreciated by 20% during that time and my friend really didn't want to spend so much gas getting all the way to the gun store anyway. Who would have guessed such a fine person would be a felon? Same for the other 14 counts."
A straw purchase is someone asking you to purchase on their behalf and doing things like providing funds, telling you how to fill out the form and/or coming to the store with you. Those are the people that end up convicted.
You can think of it similar to tax evasion. Failing to declare $10,000 in income because you didn't understand the tax code is not a crime. Intentionally hiding $10,000 of income is.
If I purchase for myself, and then sell it to someone else, when does that constitute a straw purchase?
If that is your earnest intent when you bought it, then ostensibly it would be legal. However...
Laws aren't computer code; gray areas get hashed out in court. How often you've done this and the amount of time that passed between the purchase and sale would be considered, as well as any paper trail you might have left. Simply put, there is no firm answer to your question. Talk to a real lawyer if you think you're wading into a gray area like that.
As a gun owner, sure there is. If your gun shows up in a crime, you get indicted as well. That would put a big dent in people being willing to buy guns for others.
Also making sure there are no secondary sales without background checks, which is supported by (I think?) the majority of Americans would help.
Repeat offenders at losing guns lose the right to any guns.
All of these would stop repeat offenders, and if I recall, the majority of straw sales are repeat offenders knowing they don't get in much or any trouble buying guns this way.
It's only supported by the majority of Americans until you ask them about specific situations and policy implications. Instead of a generic "Do you support universal background checks?" question they should try asking "Should you have to perform a background check to loan a gun to your roommate to take to the range?" or "Should you have to perform a background check to loan a gun to your next door neighbor who is worried her violent stalker ex-boyfriend has figured out where she lives?" and you'll find much lower levels of support.
Yes to both. It takes 30 seconds to run the check. They're not required to interview kindergarden classmates or something crazy.
In CA it takes two visits to an FFL for each transfer (to them and back to you) with a 10 day waiting period in between the two visits and a $35 fee. Your "it takes 30 seconds" tells me you have no idea the reality of how gun laws affect the law abiding.
I just bought a rifle in Nevada a couple weeks ago. It took multiple days to run the check.
No to both.
Not at all, the current state-level bans on private sales only make exceptions for immediate family members and a few other specific groups/situations, they would make the behavior in my questions a felony.
Here's Washington State's exceptions (note that c would not apply to my violent ex scenario because the violent ex would need to be actually present at the time of the transfer and threatening harm):
(4) This section does not apply to: (a) A transfer between immediate family members, which for this subsection shall be limited to spouses, domestic partners, parents, parents-in-law, children, siblings, siblings-in-law, grandparents, grandchildren, nieces, nephews, first cousins, aunts, and uncles, that is a bona fide gift or loan; (b) The sale or transfer of an antique firearm; (c) A temporary transfer of possession of a firearm if such transfer is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to the person to whom the firearm is transferred if: (i) The temporary transfer only lasts as long as immediately necessary to prevent such imminent death or great bodily harm; and (ii) The person to whom the firearm is transferred is not prohibited from possessing firearms under state or federal law; (d) A temporary transfer of possession of a firearm if: (i) The transfer is intended to prevent suicide or self-inflicted great bodily harm; (ii) the transfer lasts only as long as reasonably necessary to prevent death or great bodily harm; and (iii) the firearm is not utilized by the transferee for any purpose for the duration of the temporary transfer; (e) Any law enforcement or corrections agency and, to the extent the person is acting within the course and scope of his or her employment or official duties, any law enforcement or corrections officer, United States marshal, member of the armed forces of the United States or the national guard, or federal official; (f) A federally licensed gunsmith who receives a firearm solely for the purposes of service or repair, or the return of the firearm to its owner by the federally licensed gunsmith; (g) The temporary transfer of a firearm (i) between spouses or domestic partners; (ii) if the temporary transfer occurs, and the firearm is kept at all times, at an established shooting range authorized by the governing body of the jurisdiction in which such range is located; (iii) if the temporary transfer occurs and the transferee's possession of the firearm is exclusively at a lawful organized competition involving the use of a firearm, or while participating in or practicing for a performance by an organized group that uses firearms as a part of the performance; (iv) to a person who is under eighteen years of age for lawful hunting, sporting, or educational purposes while under the direct supervision and control of a responsible adult who is not prohibited from possessing firearms; (v) under circumstances in which the transferee and the firearm remain in the presence of the transferor; or (vi) while hunting if the hunting is legal in all places where the person to whom the firearm is transferred possesses the firearm and the person to whom the firearm is transferred has completed all training and holds all licenses or permits required for such hunting, provided that any temporary transfer allowed by this subsection is permitted only if the person to whom the firearm is transferred is not prohibited from possessing firearms under state or federal law; (h) A person who (i) acquired a firearm other than a pistol by operation of law upon the death of the former owner of the firearm or (ii) acquired a pistol by operation of law upon the death of the former owner of the pistol within the preceding sixty days. At the end of the sixty-day period, the person must either have lawfully transferred the pistol or must have contacted the department of licensing to notify the department that he or she has possession of the pistol and intends to retain possession of the pistol, in compliance with all federal and state laws; or (i) A sale or transfer when the purchaser or transferee is a licensed collector and the firearm being sold or transferred is a curio or relic.
It also seems you're trying to stack the deck in your favor. If you're going to ask questions designed to pull support away with cherry picked circumstances, then you should also ask cherry picked questions leading the other way, like pointing out how many mass shootings are done with guns that bypassed background checks.
So cite your poll please. I'd like to see the questions.
Or you can ask a fairly neutral question, like [1], a poll with the question "How much do you support or oppose each of the following? Requiring background checks on all gun sales"
73% strongly support, 15% somewhat support, 4% somewhat oppose, 4% strongly oppose, 5% don't know/no opinion.
That's a pretty neutral question, has massive support.
Let's see your data on your split questions.
[1] https://www.politico.com/f/?id=00000180-fe72-d0c2-a9ae-ff725...
Can you name some? Better yet, can you point to data on how often this has happened?
Off the top of my head, I can think of several instances where the guns were legally purchased and the shooter passed the background checks. I can think of a couple where they were stolen, and one where they were taken from a family member after that family member's murder. I can't think of any where the firearm(s) were acquired exclusively through private sale.
How would it help at all? They've already proven willing to break the law with the straw purchase.
> All of these would stop repeat offenders, and if I recall, the majority of straw sales are repeat offenders knowing they don't get in much or any trouble buying guns this way.
You don't know what you're talking about. It's a felony, and precludes you from purchasing or even possessing a firearm ever again. It's not possible to be a repeat offender.
What does a firearm have to do with alcohol and tobacco?
I did a quick Google, and -- sure enough! --
"Biden nominee for ATF Director says he's never owned a gun"
https://americanmilitarynews.com/2022/06/biden-nominee-for-a...
And I'm also pretty sure it's not "Republican" DAs and AGs refusing to prosecute crime.
"At the N.R.A.’s instigation, Congress has limited the bureau’s budget. It has imposed crippling restrictions on the collection and use of gun-ownership data, including a ban on requiring basic inventories of weapons from gun dealers. It has limited unannounced inspections of gun dealers. Fifteen years ago, the N.R.A. successfully lobbied to make the director’s appointment subject to Senate confirmation — and has subsequently helped block all but one nominee from taking office."
I'm pretty sure no DA is refusing to prosecute violent crime. One party is limiting the gun crimes that DAs can prosecute. https://www.salon.com/2022/06/06/us-laws-are-causing-mayhem-...
This is A) obviously nonsense B) does not incentivize any positive behavioral changes C) equivalent to banning re-selling your guns.
We already have the ability to prosecute people who perform straw purchases.
> the majority of straw sales are repeat offenders
Sounds like the problem lies with straw purchase enforcement, not with the entire concept of gun resale.
If you loan your car to someone and they commit a crime with it, you can face charges for it. If you sell your car without a termination of interest notice filed with the state and the new owner doesn't file the signed title, it is still legally your car and what the new owner does with it can get you in legal trouble.
In general if you have no reason to believe someone will commit a crime with your car, you typically can't be found criminally liable for merely loaning it out. With firearms, it's actually a federal crime to lend a firearm to an out of state resident except for lawful sporting purposes (not general purposes, like lawful self defense).
Temporary use for lawful sporting purposes. I've taken that to mean I can let my out-of-state buddy try my rifle while we're at the range, or use it while on a hunting trip together. I would be pretty careful about lending out a gun to an out-of-state resident without being present the whole time they are using it, otherwise I'd be afraid of getting into a legal battle about whether it was temporary use.
if your car is involved in a crime, the cops will come looking for you. maybe you can beat a conviction but you might face an uphill battle even with an attorney. but sure, it's not illegal to sell a car without transferring the title, but neither is it considered a legal sale. that is still your car as long as the title is in your name.
So again, as many others have said, if your gun is stolen then what? You’re implying that if your gun showed up at a crime scene you’ve done something wrong, which is clearly not true in many cases.
All this will do is decrease gun ownership due to liability.
Buying a gun "for" someone else is a very gray area. For example, if I bought a gun and ten years later sold it to some guy who committed a crime, should I be indicted? Was this a straw purchase with a looooong time window? Or if I truly did buy a gun for someone else (as in, purchased and delivered the same day) and he waits ten years to commit a crime, was this also a true straw purchase? How can you tell?
No, because for you to sell it to him, you'd have done the background check, and transferred it to him. That is the point.
Same as car titles, or mortgage deeds, or others items in society that transfer ownership.
In most (all?) states there's no need for a background check or any kind of record keeping when two individuals are selling/transferring to one another [0]. Between states it's another story.
> Same as car titles, or mortgage deeds, or others items in society that transfer ownership.
There's no constitutional right to any of those things, which is what makes the situation different.
0: https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/resources/federal-ccw-law/f...
Have you followed this thread at all? I am fully aware of this, having done many gun transfers.
This thread is about adding universal background checks.
>There's no constitutional right to any of those things, which is what makes the situation different.
It is not different at all - it is perfectly constitutional to require background checks and transfers - that is how the current system is legal.
And all constitutional rights have bounds. 1st Amendment free speech has limits on what you can say, where you can do it, even requiring permits for many cases. 3rd, 4th, 5th Amendments about housing and property - you have a constitutional right to property, but it can be deprived, and many forms are registered and require paperwork to transfer. So it's not at all different from other property registration and transfers.
Most definitely yes. It makes no difference even if he never commits a crime, it's still a straw purchase. Per 18 USC 922(a)(6), you cannot lie to a federal dealer when purchasing a firearm. Question 21(a) on the mandatory Form 4473 (Firearm Transaction Record) asks if you are the actual buyer and not buying on behalf of someone else. If you answer no, the sale is denied. If you answer yes and it isn't true, you have violated 922(a)(6).
so, someone breaks into my house while I am on vacation for three weeks, ignores the alarm, rips open the gun safe, takes a gun, kills someone...I go to jail?
but even in the case of actual straw purchases, the buyer is often victimized by the ultimate intended user...gangs browbeating vulnerable people etc. doesn't excuse the crime, but imprisoning a mule won't stop much
Not if you report it or demonstrate it was stolen. And I didn't write "go to jail" - indicted means they're going to investigate you, just like they do now when a gun registered to someone shows up in crimes. And those people don't "go to jail" if they didn't have the gun.
What it does curtail is people buying guns to give away, because at some point enough guns will show up having been registered to them then used in crimes, and that should be prosecuted. That behavior is what is going to bring even stricter regulations if it is not curtailed by some set of laws.
I'd prefer a decent background check on firearm transfers - I already pass them with zero problem, but it would hinder people that should be banned from working around such measures.
That's not what "indicted" means. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indictment#United_States
These days they can even catch over stamping, I heard about some cases using xray to do it. So it's more trouble than it's worth to remove serials on new guns usually. For some reason I hear about almost no instances of peening to hide it, which is probably because you need to know the right size and pressure so it mostly makes sense at scale.
It's funny the number of criminals that run around with literally filed off serials and get themselves literally 10x the time on the gun charge as whatever else they caught for.
You can instead get a shitty gun bc some have badly done serials (speshul wepunz has done this before, but ofc then you have to shoot one lol), you can get an old gun, you can finish an 80% lower. But most criminals just steal or straw buy, or buy smuggled guns (the philippines is notorious for this).
The classic trick for removing serial numbers and foil attempts at recovery is to weld over. For guns this gets complicated because you're potentially altering heat treated parts that would need to be re-treated but that's doable. The kind of people who tend to own heat treat ovens tend to be the kind to ask questions but that would cost $$. There are many common and popular guns where the serialized parts are not mechanically significant enough to warrant special heat treating in which case weld away.
Welded over is trivial to recover the serial numbers. See the refs I posted for example.
Also just scratching the surface smooth is not enough, and most people screw that up. The stamping leaves strain marks in the metal under the surface, and these can be recovered from a completely smoothed surface.
For example https://www.horiba.com/int/science-in-action/raman-breakthro... and https://digitalcommons.wku.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2...
These are just the tip of the iceberg for recovery techniques.
https://www.politico.com/news/2021/03/25/sources-secret-serv...
I hadn't heard about it before.
Sounds like a BS statistic: what about all the crimes people got away with committing? How do they know the status of the guns used in those?
The real answer is probably that stolen guns are probably used by more sophisticated criminals (i.e., the ones that elude the police). And straw purchases are used by the people who keep getting caught, hence the need for the straw purchase to begin with.
Also, this is why I dislike government databases.
It's not like the old days where an attacker would have to haul tons of paper around and go through it manually.
There was a registration list of every person and what religion they were for tax purposes, everyone was fine with it. Then 1941 happened.
Everyone must fill this form soon after moving to Germany. It's very difficult to proceed without registering one's address.
To the parents post, litigation and firearms training are two things the NRA does well, which includes suing California over privacy issues such as this.
And on one hand, your relationship with your government is not the same as your relationship with private entities. However, at some level it doesn't matter who leaked a particular piece of information. If your favorite gun store gets hacked, and your collection is exposed along with your address, the effect is essentially the same as if it were the government of California getting hacked.
yeah, to government you are a voter, but to Equifax and Facebook you are a product,
you have as much influence over them as a barrel of wheat has over the farmer.
1. People can come target me for stealing
2. If the steppers pass a law targeting something then they know I have to turn it in or they come kick down my door and shoot my dog. I really don't want a database of e.g. AR pistols or braces so if the govt decides they are illegal they can't try to force me to turn them in.
Yeah, we wouldn't want the ability to pay people what they're owed, or what they've given to Social Security when it's time for payouts, or what people have criminal convictions for various crimes, or who owns what license plate, or who is registered to vote, because we want all those things to be as wild, wild west as possible. right? No need to track how much money you have in the bank, you can just trust them. No need to track how much you've paid off a loan, you can trust them to tell you when they feel like it. No accountability, no tracking, complete ignorance on everyone and everything...
Or we can have databases because they are extremely useful for a modern, well functioning society, and try to mitigate negatives as much as possible.
>It's not like the old days where an attacker would have to haul tons of paper around and go through it manually.
You mean longer ago than most people have been alive? When things were vastly slower, making them unusable with the numbers of people we serve now? When you paid more for most things since the slowness and overhead of every was also people having to go through all the records manually to get things done?
Good idea. We can set mankind back nearly 100 years, or if we really try, let's push us back before any automation.
Did I say we should stop using databases altogether? No. I said this is a reason to dislike them.
Did I say we should go back to using paper recordkeeping for everything? No. Again, that was never argued.
Have you considered that maybe there's a middle-ground between collecting, trading, and analyzing every possible scrap of data we can squeeze out of people... and the Butlerian Jihad?
>Did I say we should stop using databases altogether?
Claiming this is a reason to dislike all databases coupled with your wistful statement "it's not like the old days..." sure looks like your advocating for the old days.
>Have you considered that maybe there's a middle-ground between collecting, trading, and analyzing every possible scrap of data we can squeeze out of people... and the Butlerian Jihad?
Yes, which is why I mocked your dislike of all such databases (including as you wrote, banks and ISPs) and a weird reference to ancient systems as if they were a better option.
If you thought middle ground was a good solution, you could have simply written that instead of writing two extremes. But you chose the extremes.
I didn't say what you listed amounted to the "Butlerian Jihad," but you were clearly and deliberately implying that I said we should get rid of every database.
That's a strawman argument. You need to stop. Ok?
> Claiming this is a reason to dislike all databases coupled with your wistful statement "it's not like the old days..." sure looks like your advocating for the old days.
Nope. It's possible to dislike things and still compromise with them.
> Yes, which is why I mocked your dislike of all such databases
Right. You approached the conversation in bad faith. Quite a lot of that going on in this thread.
> a weird reference to ancient systems as if they were a better option.
A pointed reference to the fact that paper records couldn't be completely compromised remotely. A strength that's very, very pertinent to the discussion of a leak that includes ALL of California gun owners.
> But you chose the extremes.
This is precisely the strawman to which I was referring. YOU chose the extremes, not me. You've been told by the source (me) that this is not what was being said. Now you need to stop pretending it was.
I generally expect a higher level of conversation here than on certain other social media websites. I see that when it comes to political discussion, my expectations are unfounded.
> The California Rifle & Pistol Association (CRPA) slammed the leak and said it was looking into potential legal action against the state.
Fabio A, Duell J, Creppage K, O’Donnell K, Laporte R. Gaps continue in firearm surveillance: Evidence from a large U.S. City Bureau of Police. Social Medicine. 2016; 10(1).
Cool do you have any evidence or a citation to back up the claim. I’m surprised, seems more likely they would buy off the black market.
Edit: Instead of downvoting, provide the source.
Edit2: https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/guns/procon/g...
> An expert on crime gun patterns, ATF agent Jay Wachtel says that most guns used in crimes are not stolen out of private gun owners' homes and cars. "Stolen guns account for only about 10% to 15% of guns used in crimes," Wachtel said. Because when they want guns they want them immediately the wait is usually too long for a weapon to be stolen and find its way to a criminal.
https://bjs.ojp.gov/content/pub/pdf/suficspi16.pdf
300k-600k are stolen every year.
"That’s enough firearms to provide a weapon for every instance of gun violence in the country each year – several times over."
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/sep/21/gun-theft-us...
There are numerous city level reports as well if one cares to Google them.
The question is if any guns are stolen and the effect of publishing this list on the number of stolen guns.
I’m not sure how that is controversial. There can be other sources of guns. That doesn’t make this less bad.
if some contrived scenario represents less than 1% of the problem we are discussing, it's not a real problem.
there are 8 billion people in the world, and it is always possible to find someone who has done something, no matter how ridiculous.
The existence of a problem does not dismiss the validity of another.
Many are likely stolen from cars. Leaving a gun in the glove compartment isn't terribly uncommon in America, nor are car break-ins.
USA sending mountains of guns to Ukraine now. I expect many will go into black markets.
The first link you mentioned is about a failed operation, rather than Obama arming gangsters. Is it bad, that it failed, yes. But it's not like they were given to them to arm them. There is a lot of context missing there.
Ok? Is that a lot?
> were given to gangsters in Mexico by Holder and Obama.
There are two options here.
One, you believe this is true, and that it is somehow relevant.
That means you are arguing for more gun restrictions. Which means you are a person that makes it harder for me to preserve an important fundamental right of gun ownership.
The second is that you are playing the part of an ignorant rube that plays into stereotypes of gun owners which are ultimately self-defeating to anyone who actually cares about the issue.
Either way I can’t come up with a way that you are simultaneously making an interesting and honest argument.
I don't subscribe to the argument that firearms serve as an effective deterrent to robbery, so it almost certainly can't help.
But you asked where the black market gets it's merchandise. Theft, smuggling, and straw purchases immediately spring to mind. It would be interesting to see data comparing the effectiveness of each.
Reads to me as:
“I’m surprised [criminals steal guns] seems more likely they would buy [stolen guns] off the black market.”
The suggestion guns are sourced from a black market is not a compelling argument against those items being stolen. Invoking the black market itself establishes the incentive to steal.
I merely responded to the question regarding where else the black market could have acquired those guns.
This took place in 2007. It was about midnight or 1AM and we were watching Clone High when there was a knock at the door. This being Canada and such I just opened the door, and the three guys pushed their way in with what I believe to be a Beretta 92 pointed at my face. Two of them guarded me while the other retrieved my then-girlfriend, now wife.
They proceeded to steal basically all of my father's firearms. They had significant difficulty in opening the safes and at one point brought me down to the basement (where my father's workshop was) to try to help them out.
They loaded everything into my mother's Dodge Neon. This process took them about two hours, during which time they rotated who was guarding us. Once they were finished, they bound us at ankles, wrists and hands with duct tape, flipped the main breaker, and drove off.
I gave them a count of approximately five minutes, and then worked to free us. When our hands were bound I moved my hands a bit apart to be able to get the tape off easier. I could then reach into my pocket for my knife (a Kershaw Leek) and cut the rest of the tape off both of us. I then called 911.
Over the next few weeks, I was the main suspect in the police investigation. I was interviewed repeatedly and polygraphed (the results of which were inconclusive, apparently). At one point one of the detectives basically asked my wife to "flip" on me, which she thought was pretty hilarious.
These guys are basically still at large, I guess you could say. Two of the guns have since been recovered but the rest have never been seen again.
Throughout this incident I remained quite calm. In fact, they played for me the recording of the 911 call, and suggested I must have orchestrated the incident because of how calm I sounded. Funny stuff.
I sounded too calm on the phone with the 911 dispatcher, I used "big words" ("affirmative", etc.) when giving my statement, and, and this one is my favorite, I didn't get super angry when they asked me what should happen to the bad guys. Yeah, like from that episode of The Office. I said something like "well, whatever the law says... do that" and apparently I should have said something more like "TEAR THEIR FUCKIN HEADS OFF AND SHIT DOWN THEIR NECKS AND THEN RIP THEIR DICKS OFF AND SHOVE THEM UP THEIR ASSES".
3.6 roentgen per hour? That's actually significant...
Doesn't it do the opposite though? It gives criminals a map of exactly who they shouldn't rob, lest they risk getting shot. I imagine criminals will go after the softest, easiest targets, not the hardened, well-armed ones.
>Criminals get guns through burgling and robbery.
Are you sure about that? I thought it was more via buying guns in states where they're easy to get and which don't keep registrations or records, then illegally, covertly transporting them across state lines, and then sometimes removing/filing serial numbers and other identifying info.
I'd say thieves generally want to rob when _nobody_ is home so it doesn't matter if they are armed or not. Knowing that there are guns stored in the house is just advertising something specific they might be able to steal.
Robbery is to steal under threat of force. Give me your wallet or I break your knee caps. That's a robbery.
You don't "rob" when nobody is home.
In high school, my driver's ed instructor (here in California) said (jokingly) if you screw up and hit a person, you better hope they die. The implications of a death on your hands is a bounded lawsuit / jail problem. Someone surviving is a much less constrained problem. While crass, it made a point.
If you shoot someone in self defense and they are killed, you are dealing with voluntary manslaughter as the most likely charge, argue accordingly. If they survive, they get the opportunity to muddy the waters.
Either it is on your person or locked in a safe.
This is the mythos the gun owners fashion for themselves, but in reality, they don't live in forts camped out behind sandbags. They only have two hands, work day jobs, own cookie-cutter houses in the suburbs, drink at night, have kids and bitter ex-spouses, follow predictable routines, and are as bad at security as everybody else.
There are plenty of opportunities to get the drop on a gun hoarder. Being brazen has its rewards.
And yeah, you risk getting shot if you just barge into a house with a strapped owner, but all you need to do is ambush him when he's going to his car, or just enter his house when he isn't at home.
That much doesn't really matter. It's still lucrative to steal iPhones and fence them at those "recycle your device" kiosks.
Even if the owner calls the police and leads them to the box, there's nothing they will do-- by the time they get a warrant, the phone will be on its way to Brazil.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/outrage-after-ny-newspaper-publ...
I'm inclined to believe that this will push home robberies onto those without guns.
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/illinois-officials-spar-ove...
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/illinois-house-approves-bil...
One thing I dislike about the news is that every article drops you into a situation, but you don't know how it ended up like that or what happened afterwards. It would be nice if some modern news site placed stories on a timeline.
I feel like this puts everyone without a gun at risk. I hope every gun owner in CA sue him up and down.
True. But, not BY robbing people on the CCW list. That is a damn death wish. CCW is a privilege in CA. CCW permits are difficult to get, a large portion is issued to ex-police and judges. CCW holders practice at the gun range as it is required to pass and hold the CCW. EG. There isn't dust on their pistol.
God help you in court - if you are standing there charged with armed burglary of another judges / officers house [with CCW].
I don't know if the map was dynamically generated from the data on every page load (thus requiring the data to be there), but the slowness of the server suggests maybe it was. Another good reason to use static sites unless there is a good reason to do otherwise. This database only went through 2021, so it wasn't changing.
This isn't good.
[1] https://thereload.com/new-california-bill-would-allow-the-re...
I've not submitted a PRI in the state of CA (which is what I believe is required for CCW data), but based on privacy laws I assume they're not handing out addresses on a whim.
Now imagine that the government requires you to register your safe because a child could be trapped in your safe.
Now imagine that the database was leaked.
Your important documents were safer because you had a safe, now they are less safe because thieves know exactly what houses have home safes and thus where they should go to steal from.
And suppose this conversation is about real guns. Not nerf guns.
My anonymous gun ownership make me and my neighbors safer because I:
1. Can protect myself and my family.
2. Gun seeking criminals (e.g. Mexican drug cartels) that are better armed for the occasion do not know to target my house for my rifles, shotgun and handgun.
3. Burgling my very (yet cool) progressive neighbors is risky since every other house in America has a gun (I found a corner of swing state America that looks down on lawn signs). Widespread gun ownership significantly lowers the EV of committing crime.
Be useful to post evidence of this claim.
USA is first by incarceration rate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_incarcera... even with 120 arms every 100 persons https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estimated_number_of_civilian_g...
South states (where AFAIK at least looking at international news, people is more willing to own a gun) have incarceration rate really high: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_incarceration_ra... Probably there's a problem with illegal immigration, that doesn't explain everything, overall is incredibly higher than other western countries.
This is quite old https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/9715182/ "Conclusions: Guns kept in homes are more likely to be involved in a fatal or nonfatal accidental shooting, criminal assault, or suicide attempt than to be used to injure or kill in self-defense.
Also: https://www.gunviolencearchive.org/sites/default/files/2014-... Almost all KPI but Defensive Use are increasing since 2014. Of course it's only correlation with number of arms, much higher in USA than most other countries.
But, there's a 2013 CDC study https://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/cdc-study-use-firearms-... that says * "that guns are an effective and often used crime deterrent and that most firearm incidents are not fatal" * "stolen guns account for only a small percentage of guns used by convicted criminals."
Or another one https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/rr5214a2.htm: that says "In summary, the Task Force found insufficient evidence to determine the effectiveness of any of the firearms laws reviewed for preventing violence."
Or from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concealed_carry_in_the_United_... it's not clear if concealed arm licenses had impact on crime, in any way.
Also, you must really be willing to use a gun. Uvalde police waited 45 minutes before going in, protocol says to go in as soon as possible, they were scared. They are humans afterall, even if trained.
So, it's not really clear to me that more arms means more or less safety. But I know this: in 2020 Chicago alone (where AFAIK there are what you could call "strict laws") there have been almost 3 times murders than whole Italy. Rate is about 60 times, and Chicago is not even in top 10 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_cities_b...). Something to think about.
However, I didn't state a statistical fact, or assert the effect of guns on the amount of criminality.
"Widespread gun ownership significantly lowers the EV of committing crime."
EV is expected value, not expectation. That is, I didn't say that crime is less likely. I said that a person who comes into a house in the US has a not insignificant chance of leaving on a stretcher, which I consider negative value from the invader's PoV.
I have a safe, trigger locks, don't have a history of violence, etc. The small minority who are irresponsible gun owners get slaughtered increasing the numbers for the larger pool.
That partition function in the denominator is key!
So, no. My gun does not endanger my family.
>People with guns at home kill themselves at triple the rate of normal people.
Those studies are widely known to have serious statistical problems since those with suicidal tendencies also may purchase a gun, completely breaking the independent variable requirement to make such a claim. [1] for example at least addresses that these are real issues.
Also, Japan's suicide rate, without guns, is larger than the US suicide and homicide rates combined.
I think you're pushing as true things that are not demonstrated, and may well be untrue.
[1] https://www.rand.org/research/gun-policy/analysis/essays/fir...
> I think you're pushing as true things that are not demonstrated, and may well be untrue.
As if this refutes their entire thesis, which it does not. Can you provide some sources on your non-suicide gun violence assertions?
It's important to remember, in the context of this obviously intentionally vague language, that until 2018 the CDC was explicitly prohibited from conducting research into the statistics of gun violence by the Dickey Amendment, and has only published cursory data in the few years since that research ban was abolished. But -- that language still remains in legislative force: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/powerpost/wp/2018/03/22/...
> Language in the report accompanying the bill clarifying that the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention can, in fact, conduct research into gun violence. A long-standing rider known as the Dickey Amendment, which states that no CDC funds “may be used to advocate or promote gun control,” has been interpreted in the past to bar such research. The amendment itself remains.
About half of households in the US have guns. Do half of cars have NRA stickers? A quarter? One in ten?
Gun owners are shy. Thats why we prefer concealed carry instead of open carry.
Concealed carry also has the benefit of a criminal not knowing who is armed or not and thus can't really assume that any one person is a soft target, which is a great deterrence factor.
I was not able to find a good state on this one. Some stats are reporting a stat from 30 to 40% of ownership with data jumping up and down every alternate year, whereas others are porting 20-something percent ownership. About half of households in US having guns means gun control issue being totally dead.
No one knows how many guns there are in America (more than one per person though) and who owns them. We know its mostly men, with a significant, increasing, number of women. Minorities are also increasing their share of legal gun ownership.
About 20%-30% of the adult population owns a gun, but many women don't say they "own a gun" if their husbands own one - guns are, for many reasons, very much "personal" property. It's the husband's gun or the house's gun, not necessarily hers [1]. However, in my experience talking to other gun owners, the wives support or encourage their continued ownership. Hence "household" ownership estimated somewhere about a third to half.
(Its actually probably closer to the mid to low 40s, but varies regionally. Chicago has very little legal handgun ownership, Kennesaw GA has basically universal gun ownership.)
Furthermore a lot of Americans own a gun without considering themselves a "gun owner". The single shot .22lr they got for their 12th birthday. The Ruger 10/22 that was passed down. An emotional relic they cling to that is still very much a firearm. Then there is the "shy conservative" who will lie on a survey. This to say, there is a significant amount of people with guns who will answer "no" to a survey question about gun ownership.
I think the best way to gauge this, an to your point about gun control, is its electoral significance. Democrats aren't really affected at the pols for failing to deliver gun control, but Republicans are demolished if they waver a little bit (note every GOP senator who voted for bill is retiring or not up for election). I think this hints that gun ownership and tolerance is widespread among the GOP and independents.
[1] imagine 250 lb hubby has a double stacked 10mm and is married to a 90lb petite. The physics doesn't work. Even myself, Id love for my wife to come to the range one day, but Ill have to rent her a smaller pistol - the 92 has a very large grip even for me.
Indeed but pro-life voters voted for the GOP with their nose pinched, mostly aghast (their perspective) at the alternative (the Dems have long moved away from "safe, available and rare").
Anyway, gun control is far less popular than overturning Roe. At least until you slice "Roe" up (partial birth, first, second, third trimester). Gun control will have to happen through the administrative state
40% of people (or adults, not sure) live in a household with a gun. Not all of those people consent to the gun's presence.
"percent of households" is probably in between.
Gun control issue is not dead, because the percentage varies regionally, and gun control can stop people from buying and using a gun immediately in a fit of passion.
No, of course not. But most do.
Anyway, to my original post, a criminal entering a household has about an even chance to burgling an armed home. It varies regionally, so in Kennesaw the chance is nearly 100%, in Chicago it's nearly 0% (legally owned anyway).
Not even close. Because most people aren't trying to advertise it.
Apples and oranges.
If you get burglarized, your ham radio equipment probably won't get stolen. And if it does, it's a crime of opportunity, not because someone found you in a database and somehow knew you had the good equipment.
But sometimes criminals are desperate for guns, or the quick cash that guns can bring. You don't want desperate, potentially violent criminals finding out that your house has exactly what they are desperate for.
If they want the cash, they could even prearrange a fence based on the database search. That's a little too convenient.
I think you missed the premise here: ham radio equipment = $$$, open registry of people who may have ham radio equipment available for years, chance of having other expensive things very likely, correlation to crime and open registry of names pretty much zero. The article is just trying to foment a controversy when there isn't one.
> It makes the gun owner a lucrative target.
I mean, on one side they're saying that owning guns is necessary to protect their property. But now they're saying that owning guns makes them a target for crime? To me it seems like they're trying to have it both ways on this.
> Criminals get guns through burgling and robbery.
Private transactions are still legal. The gun show loophole is still around. Buying a gun and gifting it is legal.
The "gun show loophole" doesn't exist. It is still a crime for a prohibited person to possess a firearm no matter how they get it. In many states including California, it is illegal for a private sale to occur without a background check. Somehow, many prohibited persons still acquire them, and their info wasn't just leaked by the California AG.
They're saying that the government leaking their personal information makes them a target for crime. Is this comment a joke? I'm having trouble believing that anyone could seriously view this as somehow indicating that gun owners are hypocritical. I guarantee you that no gun owners wanted California to track and subsequently leak their personal details. If you're being serious, this is some of the (unintentionally) funniest sophistry I've seen in a while.
> Private transactions are still legal.
If you can't legally buy a gun at a store, you can't legally buy a gun privately.
Almost without exception, every discussion with anti-gun advocates is predicated on this kind of attitude, in concert with an astonishing ignorance of the subject they wish to further regulate.
Kind of like conservative men and their beliefs on women's reproductive rights.
The reason is because it allows improved matchmaking of criminals and victims, and allows criminals to improve the efficiency of their crimes. A criminal that's looking for guns could go outside your house, wait until you leave, then rob you looking for the guns and getting out quickly (with a fence ready to buy them). A criminal looking for something else could see that you're not on the list, break in with their gun while you are home, and do who-knows-what to you.
Sure, there are exceptions. Maybe you want a "beware of dog" sign or a "closed-circuit camera" notice that might push the criminals to keep looking for their next victim. These notices are best to prevent crimes of opportunity, and probably better posted on the house than in a leaked database online.
Why is this? Are we talking about burglars who want the valuable guns? That does seem odd as the number two deterrent to burglary is knowledge that the home-owner has a gun (the number on apparently are large dogs).
If the above is the case, the idea is that a burglar will scan this list for nearby homes and target them? On the basis that they have a gun alone (which again, is the number two deterrent to burglary). Plus, there is a lot of precedent that it takes almost nothing to use deadly force against an intruder and have zero consequences.
> I guarantee you that no gun owners wanted California to track and subsequently leak their personal details.
I'm guessing that California gun owners are perhaps amongst those who particularly do not want their personal details leaked. There are all sorts of reasons to not want that for anyone. This argument though of "we're now bigger targets for crime", when they have guns to "prevent" that crime, I can't reconcile that. So is the gun a deterrent, or not?
I can think of a lot of other things that would make someone the target for burglary, like having a 4 car garage and gated fence.
> If you can't legally buy a gun at a store, you can't legally buy a gun privately.
While that is the case, if there is no obligation to run a background check (gun-show loophole) - then how do you prevent these people from purchasing guns?
The loophole is not that it's legal or illegal, the loophole is that someone is obtaining a gun that shouldn't.
Given this context, the fear that those looking for guns would use this information to target a relative minority that have them becomes much more plausible.
So, the fear is that burglars would actively mine this data, go to the physical location, wait and ensure nobody is home, then break in? All that compared to say doing the same for someone that has an expensive car in their drive way?
How would the burglars feel about travelling to that neighborhood to first case it? Would you go a few dozen miles to first just find out if there are security cameras, neighborhood watch, etc..?
I think this speaks to a sufficiently motivated burglar. Would this list be the different for that motivated burglar to target someone on that list, compared to any other target? For that motivated burglar, was this leak really the difference in who they target?
Thinking through this scenario concretely, it seems like there are plenty of other actual dangers to worry about.
It makes me think that this side of the coin is just high-pitched whining (my opinion),vs a very legitimate complaint regarding data breaches.
And they will need an FFL if they make a business of selling privately.
I think you inadvertently hit on why people are opposed to further gun regulation. The people committing the crimes aren't gonna follow the law and it stands to only further burden regular citizens.
Anyways, it's kind of a moot point in California because that's a felony here.
Edit: Clearly I'm wrong and this is all malice from top to bottom /s Use your f-ing brains. You think someone is gonna risk their cushy government job to dox a bunch of gun owners and the managers are gonna risk their jobs signing off on it?
But yeah whatever really happened I'm quite certain that "the government of California just DELIBERATELY and with MALICE doxxed all the judges with carry permit" is the argument which needs to be met with "that's a hilariously large load of speculation".
It was probably a _lot_ more involved than "SELECT *"
I doubt anybody will lose their jobs for this as long as there is even a modicum of plausible deniability (every unruly child knows the "it was an accident" excuse, but somehow adults seem to conveniently forget about it in cases like this.)