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Comment by rossdavidh | Hacker News Reader

While I have no argument with the conclusion, I don't see (in brief skimming of the linked Neurology article) anything to address the possibility that it works the opposite way. Dealing with lots of other people can be cognitively taxing, and people who isolate themselves from others are perhaps doing so because they know they aren't very good at it.

Again, I believe the basic conclusion that isolation is bad for your brain is likely true, but I'm not sure I agree that this is strong evidence for it. People who sit in wheelchairs a lot have low leg strength; the wheelchairs aren't usually causing it.

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Without reading the linked article: they have accounted for this by following up for 12 years and finding that isolated people have 26% higher risk of dementia. Which points to the direction that it's isolation causing the function loss and not simply a lack of function causing isolation. (Though, of course, that direction may very well be there too.)

I don't see that as evidence? Incipient dementia causes self-isolation - that could be the vector as well.

As I said, in the experiment it worked in the other direction: isolated people were more likely to suffer from dementia 12 years later.

And could that have meant their brain was wired differently to start with? Not everyone suffers from dementia - do the changes in the brain affect behavior all our lives?

I'm not sure what your point is. The research found a correlation between isolation and dementia and it also found evidence that the former causes the latter and not the other way around (which you argued could also be the case, in your first comment).

I’d be curious about this as well, my personal experience is I think a lot clearer alone, just can’t be isolated for too long

I'm quite content with minimal human contact. I only really miss my daughter and wife and once in a blue moon some close friends or family.

But I absolutely can notice that I get kind of feral after long isolation periods, even in terms of language abilities -- but I only notice it when being with other people again, not while alone; while alone I feel much clearer as you said.

My point being what you feel about your cognitive processes/world might not be objective reality.

They should have done a similar test on people during COVID and compared against their past result.

Anecdotally, as a straight male in his 30s living abroad in a foreign country, I can say that the breakup and isolation during Covid lockdowns, plus the departure of a few close friends, has depressed me to destruction, that even therapy didn't help much, and I seem to get worse by the month.

And I thought I was an introvert who loved to spend time alone. Which I do, but turns out I also need social interactions to survive, and since I always had it at my disposal, I only noticed the deficiency once I lost it and couldn't get it back.

While I do take part in a couple of local regular sports group activities after work, making strong friendships or relationships from those has proven tough to nearly impossible. Seems like nearly everyone in their 30s with a full time job, already has kids or a romantic relationship or has a long term friend group from their youth that occupies their free time so they can't suddenly accommodate an extra +1.

I can't see it getting better. I feel like a meatbag drone grinding away on shitty codebases in front of a screen 8h/day, just to pay rent and taxes for the next 40 years and die alone after, and compensate for the loneliness by traveling and sports. Only comfort is I don't suffer any grave physical illness so at least I got that going for me.

Maybe I should switch careers to something lower paying that has more human interaction and a better female/male ratio than SW development.

Old people are often lonely for this reason. They spend all their life with one partner and they pass away or separate and they realise they have no friends or group to socialise with.

People are difficult to get to know but they say if you get to know someone who is good and not a bad person you immediately love them.

As a passing stranger reading your dilemma I also reject working until you die as a lifestyle choice. Everyone has the same 24 hours available to them. You don't have to accept the status quo if you don't want to. But you need to accept some risks. People have higher standards for others than for themselves. So getting to know people people put up walls of standards that they themselves don't abide.

Happy to talk tech spiritual stuff with you if you want someone to talk to.

> (...) Everyone has the same 24 hours available to them. You don't have to accept the status quo if you don't want to. But you need to accept some risks. (...)

That sounds like "let them eat cake"-level of advice.

Those who work long hours and navigate burnout borders often do so because it's extremely important for them to at least meet a bar that unblocks other life goals.

In some cases, not meeting the bar can result in losing a home, go bankrupt, or lose a partner/family.

Framing that as just a risk that someone needs to accept is irresponsible and naive advice. It's like telling someone in a sinking ship that not managing to hold onto a life raft is a risk that needs to be accepted, when to them it's the only acceptable option.

What I mean is that everyone has the same 24 hours available, if you want something to change you need to take a risk to change your circumstances. If you don't take a risk you cannot expect things to change.

Of course things could get worse if you take a risk. But that's why we have limited liability.

I am not framing their circumstances as something that people should just accept. I'm saying if they want something they should take a risk and try get it.

Sorry you are going through this.

One thing that I do is get coffee regularly in the morning with a group of guys. (It took dedication to get to this point)

Community is showing up. We have been doing Mondays for almost 7 years now and not everyone is married with kids.

If you pick somewhere and go there every week at the same time you slowly get incorporated. E.g. library, bookstore, chapel, coffee shop, bar, etc.

I dunno if this will work for you personally, but I've found amateur theatre and musical theatre to be good ways to meet people, and they're not male-dominated.

Same story and I feel the same way. It is the curse of our generation. We have no future, it was stolen from us by our selfish forebears. We will all die cold and alone as the world collapses around us.

Stress can help build capabilities, though. E.g. people who run for the first time may get some paid, but if they keep at it in a smart way, it's just their body adjusting to the new demands placed on it. If they never do anything, their body gets less and less resilient.

Obviously there are some people who may have conditions that make it impossible or require medical intervention to perform certain physical or social activities. The vast majority of people can do these things and don't have extreme social or physical complications. It's more a matter of some willpower or having a smooth introduction and gradual or manageable increase of discomfort.

>Stress can help build capabilities, though.

A huuuuge asterix is needed there. Stress can help build you up, only as long as it's controllable, within the tolerable limits of each individual and is paired enough quality sleep and rest when needed (like going to the gym)

Otherwise, stress outside the limits and control of the individual, with bad sleep and little rest, as they usually go hand in hand, leads to burnout, depression, eating disorders, substance abuse, homelessness, etc.

Frequency and sleep are certainly important factors. Stressing your bones from time to time lead to hairline fractures that get repaired and cause your body to strengthen the area, leading to stronger bones. But doing it faster than the repairs catch up leads to a stress fracture [1]. That happens even from what we consider normal loads (running, jumping, etc) if you aren't used to them and then suddenly experience them very frequently.

The same is true for countless other physical and psychological processes. Some stress is great, but you have to be very careful if you lack buildup or recovery periods.

1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stress_fracture

And even if you do everything right, there's never a guarantee that any given stressor will actually trigger a big enough set of adaptations to be a net positive. Human psychology and physiology do not operate on some kind of magic quid-pro-quo system where ability or health exist to reward effort or discipline; sometimes stuff just doesn't work the way you want or expect and you have to deal with it any way you can.

It doesn't matter. "Bad" is always relative to what problems the chimp brain spends its time solving.

define good and bad??? who's to say being social and popular makes you good at cognition? what cognitive task we talking about? were tesla and einstein sociable? were they popular? this is biased bs

>Again, I believe the basic conclusion that isolation is bad for your brain is likely true, but I'm not sure I agree that this is strong evidence for it.

The entire human body responds to moderate stress by improving itself. Studies have shown that fasting, exercise, and "cognitive taxation" aka learning through practice improves related areas and there is causative connections here.

I think this, plus the correlation from the study is effectively strong evidence for isolation being causative to lower intelligence.

We'd have to run an actual causative experiment here to establish this with any sort of finality though.

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