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Comment by agentultra | Hacker News Reader

This has to be the most ergonomically inefficient set-up ever!

I also cannot fathom how to work with < 2 big monitors (> 21" at least). And a tiling window manager. And a decent mechanical keyboard... ok ok..

Interesting setup. I'd be interested in knowing how it works out in the long term.

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Once upon a time programming was a lot of thinking, a little typing, and even less compiling. Maybe even some pen+paper and chalkboards. If you go back to that way of programming, I don't see why poor ergos would be a problem.

Certainly not "in vogue" and I don't know if it's feasible today. Still an interesting thought.

why did this get downvoted? it's a valid point.

This is actually the first time i've seen a downvoted comment that i just, really can't understand why it was downvoted. Anyone care to explain?

I have seen this kind of thing more and more as of late. I have concluded we are beginning to see downvotes used as "dislike" rather than "disagree".

For example, suppose I posted a comment irrefutably proving that Ruby was the worst programming language ever written. A year or two ago, I would have been upvoted for making useful observations. I suspect today I would be downvoted, because people like Ruby.

Note: I have nothing against Ruby. It is an example.

The way I see it , downvoting is intended for comments which are "bad" (irrelevent , rude , incomprehensible , just rehashing what has already been said etc) this makes sense because downvoted comments are made harder to read.

Just because most people disagree with a post does not necessarily mean it is not worth reading..

Pherhaps there should be a seperate disagree button but I don't see what purposes it would serve , when I read a comment I decide whether or not I agree with it , whether other people do or not does not matter unless they are pointing out factual errors.

I'm also ok with downvoting for comments which you "disagree (factually)", aka you strongly believe the comment is simply objectively incorrect.

For example, if I made an unsubstantiated statement that "Water is composed of Hydrogen and Nitrogen", that would be worthy of downvotes.

Where that gets tricky is when someone asserts something couter to common wisdom, but attempts to substantiate it. You then need to evaluate their defense first.

Yes, that is true but in the case of someone asserting something counter to common wisdom then I would err on the side of caution and not downvote. Better to reply directly and point out why they are probably wrong if you have the knowledge to do so.

What really depresses is that they have a similar system on the comments for various UK newspaper websites (Daily Mail I'm looking at you) and you often find that the most uprated comments (which are then displayed at the top of the comments section) are arguments that allot of people may agree with but the arguments (and often the spelling) presented are just terrible and usually consist only of an Ad hominem attack on some person or organisation.

I generally find a thoughtful defense of an unpopular viewpoint a much more interesting read than somebody who thinks they are clever by posting some content free attack on something that is trendy to hate.

Ok, this rant is way off topic now and thankfully this sort of thing seems to be mostly absent from HN :)

I'd say it's worse if you make an unsubstantiated statement that goes with the common wisdom than when you go against it. At least when a comment goes against common wisdom, substantiated or otherwise, it can spark interesting discussion. A rehash of commonly held beliefs generally doesn't spark anything that interesting and amounts to little more than noise.

I'm mostly with sliverstorm (and upvoted him). People often wonder why I'm working on a 13" Macbook and ask if the display isn't too small. That's when I point to my head and tell them that's where the action takes place, not on the keyboard or the screen. (Obligatory: http://www.folklore.org/StoryView.py?project=Macintosh&s... )

That said, decent ergonomics are almost always a good thing. Even if you're not typing a lot, you'll probably still spend a lot of time looking at the screen. Having a bad setup maybe doesn't matter for your wrists in this case but it can still be detrimental to your eyesight and of course your back.

Maybe that's why sliverstorm got downvoted: there are good reasons to care about ergonomics even if you're not typing a lot.

(For what it's worth, my excuse is convenience: I'm working in lots of different places and I can't be bothered to lug around a huge notebook or an external keyboard. Before the age of notebooks I used to have a fairly ergonomic setup with a big screen and the awesome 1st gen Microsoft Natural Keyboard, and I often do miss it: maybe I'll return to such an "immobile" setup next time I have a job with a desk.)

> Having a bad setup maybe doesn't matter for your wrists in this case but it can still be detrimental to your eyesight and of course your back.

I'm 33 and a year and a half ago I was diagnosed with degenerative disc disease in my neck from spending many years hunched over looking at things. I am extremely near-sighted (legally blind, actually) and that's the only way I can see to do... well, pretty much anything.

I do a lot of stretching exercises now and have a ridiculously expensive pillow, which both help a great deal. I'd recommend them to people who do a lot of desk work.

http://www.spine-health.com/conditions/neck-pain/neck-stretc...

Ah, a fellow Natural Keyboard (Pro?) user! I buy a bunch of those used. However, the recent Microsoft Comfort Curve Keyboards seem to have an even better keypress feel for me.

YMMV.

This is actually the first time i've seen a downvoted comment that i just, really can't understand why it was downvoted. Anyone care to explain?

Occasionally an unintended downvote happens when someone on a touchscreen tries to scroll or upvote.

Not just lack of screen space but looking "down" to your screen even tilted on a table will wreak havoc on our neck/spine which extends to your extremities (and head) quickly. Simply slouching and tilting your head up pinches nerves in your neck which leads quickly to wrist/arm pain.

Yes, "text neck" is a serious problem with working on laptop/tablet. Using an external keyboard would allow for proper placement of the display on a desk. But manipulating the iPad via swipes while positioned at head level could lead to shoulder problems!

The wireless keyboard is really good; it's not quite as nice as a mechanical one, but it's easily better than a laptop keyboard.

If I ever go back to my MacBook, I'll take the keyboard with me.

I have a tiling window manager. It has one tile.

I think you may be missing the point about mechanical keyboards, my friend.

The appeal of a mechanical keyboard stems from the switches under the keys that offer varied pressure curves, pressure thresholds, and physical feedback (depending on the switch type).

Both the apple wireless keyboard and MBP laptop keyboard use scissor switches which are the typical laptop keyboard switch type. Some people like this switch type, some people do not.

But if you're to say something like "it's easily better than a laptop keyboard" you can only make such a claim based on size or number/position of keys, since both use the same switch type. I'd wager a guess that the nature of the key switches is probably what your parent is interested in.

I have a 13" MBP and a USB apple keyboard. The keys really feel different, despite same layout. External keyboard has easier to feel clicks and requires more pressure. Could be the use on my laptop, though (2 years vs 1 year).

You may be correct in that instance, then. The older USB apple keyboards likely use rubber membrane key switches rather than the scissor switch type. In which case, the feel of the keys would definitely be different. I personally was referring to the newer apple wireless keyboards.

I have a 2010 MBA, a 2010 Apple Bluetooth keyboard and a 2011 Apple USB keyboard (with number pad). They all feel different, even if the switching mechanism is the same - the Bluetooth one is best (by a long way).

There is only one time that my batteries die on the wireless: When I don't have fresh ones nearby. Also, some server firedrill also increases the probability exponentially.

I'm sure it's a consequence of thermodynamics, but I can't explain it.

A tiling window manager can definitely be a huge productivity booster. Perhaps even more than adding an extra display, which is often said to be the cheapest way to improve productivity. A tiling WM costs nothing.

I've even started working comfortably using just one display now that I've changed to using a tiling WM. With a floating wm, I needed at least two large displays to work comfortably. Lots of that screen area was wasted just by showing a little desktop in between of poorly arranged windows. I'll never go back to floating windows with frames and decorations.

Mission Control on OS X on a laptop is also a huge improvement over overlapping windows. Swiping between full-screen apps becomes second nature very quickly.

""Perhaps even more than adding an extra display, which is often said to be the cheapest way to improve productivity.""

And which can also be a way to decrease productivity, with distractions etc. I am more productive on a smaller screen laptop than I am on a 2 screen set or even one larger (21, 27") screen. Mainly because it helps to focus on the task at hand.

We also didn't have 2 large monitors to each workstation back in the day, and somehow we did fine. Spoiled much?

We used to program with punch cards... so yeah we're spoiled and damn happy about it.

Evoking punch cards?

As a programmer, you must know about diminishing returns, right?

Nevermind diminishing returns, how about full circle? Eventually all of this abstraction will become so hard (and buggy) to maintain that we'll go back to using punch cards.

Personally, I get more work done at the office where I have two screens. When I'm at home on my laptop, I notice a difference in productivity. It's not a huge difference, but it's noticeable enough for me to want to buy a nice 27" the next paycheck.

As someone that's easily distracted I've found Lion's full-screen support is quite the blessing if you're trying to focus on getting things done.

I used to program with a 24" monitor. Then I switched almost exclusively to my 13" Macbook/Pro and haven't looked back.

The screen is just the right size to fit two 80x25 text editor windows side-by-side when full-screened. Swiping back and forth with Mission Control is almost as quick as switching your glance from one big monitor to another. Having your "mouse" right below your keyboard makes clicking something only marginally more time consuming than contorting your hands to hit an Emacs command sequence.

Probably still faster with the big setup, but I get a lot of mileage out of my little setup and I get a huge productivity/creativity boost from being able to wander around the house, head to a Starbucks, etc.

Neat bit I picked up on from Mission Control; if you're using the trackpad swipes (vs ctrl-arrow) to switch, if you don't swipe all the way (roughly 1/3 screen), you can "peek" over at the next space w/o switching and spring back when you let go instead of having to swipe back.

Wow, thanks!

Mission Control is pretty fricking awesome.

Do you guys use Mission Control with multiple browser windows? It doesn't work for me.

I find that when I have 3 Chrome windows open in one 'desktop', when I swipe to the other one and click Chrome it sends me back to the main 'desktop' where the other 3 windows are.

I don't want to have to use Firefox or some other browser in my other space.

How do I use Chrome in both, or is that not possible?

Having multiple monitors isn't good eronomically IMO. I always prefer what I'm working on to be on direct center, and I don't really see the point of having other stuff that isn't direct center. I prefer to alt-tab.

I have a large monitor on an arm in the center flanked by monitors to either side. My main monitor just has a full-screen emacs. The other monitors are for peripheral information such as browsers, irc sessions, email, etc.

It's great for keeping API docs open while I'm working without leaving my editor.

Having the center monitor on an arm just lets me adjust it's height when I move between leaning forward, slouching, or sitting straight, standing, etc.

A single monitor is limiting as it requires more context switches as I swap out windows in my viewing area. It's much nicer to just leave all the important windows open in a nice grid that spans multiple displays.

I love 3 monitor setups, with the big one in the middle and two cheap small ones on either side. All my input (editing, browsing, etc.) happens in the big fancy middle window. Test logs on the left, and server logs on the right.

The only time I use the side monitors for anything else is if I'm following along with a screencast.

I get it: I used to use 3 monitors.

I just have found that if you want to read something, I prefer it to be on the center monitor anyways, so what's the point in having multiple monitors?

Plus, I prefer to work on my laptop screen, because it's more flexible - I can put my feet up, move around, change positions easier.

Just my own personal preference

I have recently started using a laptop underneath a big honking monitor. It is fantastic. You get a second screen (down low) for stashing things like shells or firebug and looking at the big monitor (up high) forces good posture. Going back and forth feels more natural than looking left-right. Switched away from equal sized dual monitors. Never looking back.

I use 27" Dell for my Java development and 11" MacBook Air for Javascript. The bigger screen is essential for pair programming but 11" is almost good enough for most purposes. Its size causes most problems when I need to inspect the dom inside a browser.

Seconded, thanks you saved me a lot of typing. :-)

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