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Comment by idealmedtech | Hacker News Reader

I see this explanation of the grind of online dating a lot, and I think it misses a more fundamental point: people fundamentally are pretty terrible at talking to strangers. Without conversational skills, a vast majority of online dating conversations simply fizzle out; often times simply due to disinterest, but I think almost always due to a lack of ability to hold a conversation and be both interesting and interested.

I find there's actually a lot of success to be had online dating, if you just know how to talk to people and learn about them! It seems like such a tautology but I think it really is that simple.

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I’m good at conversation and getting to know people and I had no success with online dating (as opposed to acceptable success with serendipitous dating). I always thought it was because it’s hard to integrate them into your life. They’ve come from out of nowhere, your friend circles don’t overlap, and your daily paths don’t cross. It’s extra effort to make that stuff happen after the fact, and even then it doesn’t feel real somehow. I suppose it depends on certain aspects of your personality, and what makes you feel close to people.

For every relationship I ever had, I had the opportunity to observe them, get to know them in person, maybe flirt, sometimes be friends. Sometimes for weeks. Sometimes for years, without any express intent. With online dating you’re both saying upfront that you’re evaluating each other as dating material, knowing only the fluff they wrote about themselves, or I take it with this generation only what they look like. All that will probably always feel too weird for me.

That's definitely true! It's so much easier to date in person from a logistical standpoint, and I think your comment also hints at what I think is kind of a paradox: in today's social spaces, being a kind and conscientious individual often means giving strangers their space, especially in places that used to be centers of socialization; gyms, coffee shops, parks etc. But by doing this, your opportunities for organic relationships dry up significantly, especially if you're not consistent about being in those spaces. So often times people feel forced into online dating as one of the few "sanctioned" spaces where it's still considered okay to flirt with strangers.

> So often times people feel forced into online dating as one of the few "sanctioned" spaces where it's still considered okay to flirt with strangers.

This has been the story of my life. I think there is a certain type of person - physical attractiveness is part of it, but charisma is even bigger – who can "get away with" flirting in unsanctioned spaces. It's a combination of being confident enough to break taboo, perceptive enough to read subtle interest cues, and being attractive enough for those interest cues to be non-zero.

I've tried to be that person from time to time, but it almost always breaks down on one of those axes, thus consigning most of my dating efforts to the soul-crushing grind of dating sites/apps.

See I think there are no "unsanctioned places" except for maybe a mosque or a funeral.

I think the real unwritten rule is, don't flirt with someone unless you're reasonably confident that they'd like to be flirted with. Some people might be able to figure that out in a matter of minutes, and others might need to get to know someone over the course of weeks or months in a casual group setting to figure it out.

I am sorry to say, but I think people who believe flirting is not allowed probably have not put in the effort to be able to read social cues, don't have an aptitude for it, or never learned to flirt in a non-offputting way.

I think the important bit here that maybe I didn't make clear is that, at least in the context of men flirting with women, sometimes women are kind and polite without actually being comfortable (social conditioning), which many men incorrectly take as a sign of interest.

I agree that if you're charming and fun, flirting with strangers is pretty straightforward, and I especially agree with the point about getting to know people over a longer period of time before trying to gauge potential interest. Worst case, you get a cute friend!

> the context of men flirting with women, sometimes women are kind and polite without actually being comfortable (social conditioning), which many men incorrectly take as a sign of interest.

That's totally true! But that's one thing about flirting, it can be very light and non-committal.

If she is being extra friendly, smiling a lot, and giving you a little extra eye contact, you can do the same and see how she responds. If she gives you a positive feedback, take it one step farther. If she gives you negative feedback, just forget about it no harm done.

Maybe she was smiling at you in the first place because she also doesn't know if she wants to flirt with you and she's testing the waters.

I think where people get into trouble is they see someone go from 0 to 1, and they jump straight to step 7 which comes off as aggressive and off-putting.

This is because learning comes from failing and getting better. And young people can not do this easily because there is a lot of stigma associated with being the "creep" who flirts badly or when not wanted.

How much of that is real and how much of it is in young people's heads?

I think people have been dealing with rejection forever. Everyone has to start out awkward, and most people get over it.

Maybe that is one place where technology hurts us. Maybe 30 years ago, a young person would have tried and struck out, and then they would have gotten over it and tried again. Whereas maybe today people try and fail, and then they can retreat into video games and online communities, which offer a superficial sense of success or belonging without the same risk of direct rejection.

If it were just a matter of people being terrible at talking to strangers, you'd see the same issues that affect straight dating apps affect gay dating ones. They don't. (That also applies to the comment you're replying to).

Any explanation of the shittiness of straight dating apps has to center gender norms and roles.

Dating apps don't want you to have a successful relationship because then they lose you as a customer. They want you to at most have a short fling and come back. But having no success and scrolling endlessly is also fine by them.

I won't claim to speak for an entire community, but among my many queer friends this seems to be a common thru line! Of course like anything social there's never one clear explanation to any phenomenon.

> if you just know how to talk to people and learn about them!

dating is a two way street. If the other party just gives one line answers and does nothing to try to move a conversation forward, then it just becomes a job interview. You can't just magically get someone to open up when they refuse.

It doesn't help that, at least from a guy's perspective, it seems about 80% of women are really just trying to get instagram followers.

Dating also becomes a problem once you finally meet. You will never be more interesting than the smartphone in front of the other person. That person has the entire world in their hand. You can't possibly compete with TikTok or Tinder. You go to the restroom and the other person will go swiping on Tinder.

I really do believe humanity is doomed. Like really, actually, doomed. The internet is too much for our monkey brain.

> 80% of women are really just trying to get instagram followers.

These days they aren't even trying for of subscribers or ig followers, they just straight up put their cashapp in their bio. I have friends who have done that and made 100s of $ before their accounts got banned. And some didn't even get banned.

It's also true that a lot of people are on there but not realy to date. Like just to get compliments/validation. Not all girls either, just guys it doesn't work as well. Instead, a lot of us are on there just to look at/rate girls. At parties these days you will sometimes see a group of guys looking around somebody's phone "rating" girls on tinder.

Years ago my Dad wanted to try online dating and I strongly discouraged it.

"Dad, you're old (in his 60s), and short (5'5")"

You're going to be filtered out of everyone's automated search.

But my Dad is funny and can talk to anyone. I kept telling him, OkCupid isn't your scene! Meetup.com is!

Unfortunately, he didn't listen to me

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