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Comment by nowherebeen | Hacker News Reader

Musk is the CEO, he has the right to fire any employees that damage the company's reputation. You could argue that Musk is doing it himself and that the employee was simply stating facts, but it doesn't change the fact that the board decide to place him in-charge. Any other CEO would have done the same.

It is the board that should be holding him accountable, but they aren't. Most boards today are lame ducks to collect a paycheck. No one is challenging him because he is delivering results (although I would argue it's actually Gwynne Shotwell keeping the shipping sailing). So there's that.

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He does not have the universal right to fire people who talk about working conditions. Workers enjoy protections that allow them to speak about their work, even if that would be embarrassing for their employer.

>> He does not have the universal right to fire people who talk about working conditions.

Apparently the letter was not about working conditions. It was about Elon tweeting.

The letter was about how rooms Elon's tweets impacted working conditions.

Eg Individuals and groups of employees at SpaceX have spent significant effort beyond their technical scope to make the company a more inclusive space via conference recruiting, open forums, feedback to leadership, outreach, and more.

To say this is a stretch is an understatement. Working conditions are hours, the physical space, WFH v. hybrid v. remote, async or not, etc.

The letter specifically called out, eg, unequal enforcement of workplace policies.

There is so much nonsense in this thread. The letter has nothing to do with working conditions.

I take that back:

The letter was spammed to all employees using company resources, which means its authors and supporters were creating a hostile work environment. Firing the dead-weight woke cry bullies was the proper move.

I’m not saying Musk should have fired them, but I’m pretty skeptical that the CEO’s abrasive behavior in public statements unrelated to SpaceX is properly considered an aspect of working conditions. (It seems clear to me that their vague discussion of other issues is a pretext to support their eventual lawsuit, but YMMV.)

If the CEO makes it harder to land contracts or recruit talent, that's a direct impact to working conditions. I loved SpaceX and would consider working there if not for Musk, for instance.

No, that's a very indirect impact to any one individual's working conditions.

FWIW, I think firing the organizers is an overreaction and that it would be in SpaceX's best interest to muzzle Elon, but it's hard to conjure up a legal argument that they can't do it. And you'll notice that the company's statement said nothing about the content of the letter, only that it's inappropriate to organize it with company resources and on company time.

Of course the company says organizing shouldn't happen on company time/resources. Can't be having the workers thinking they could collectively act!

Considering how simple-minded and toxic work-cancer employees are, and how harmful and corrupt a union can be; it is no surprise that Musk is 3 steps ahead of them.

What wouldn’t count as working conditions under such a broad standard? Could I circulate an open letter demanding that I get a tech lead position instead of my rival because I don’t think people will enjoy working on their team? Could a salesperson circulate an open letter demanding that you should be punished because your bad engineering cost the company a big contract?

Unconvincing examples, because those are simply personal grievances and unrelated to broader company culture.

What I'm saying is that I think the open letter's attack on Musk was also a simple personal grievance. The signatories don't like Musk, they're distracted and embarrassed by his Tweets, so they demand that the company denounce him. (The letter said more than that, but if broader systemic reforms were their primary goal, why include an inflammatory attack on one specific executive?)

The courts have covered this. Generally, individual grievances are not protected. Whistleblowing may not be protected. Egregious or offensive language or coerced speech is not protected. Language that is disparaging without being an attempt to improve conditions is not protected.

Wouldn’t a counter point be that the CEO’s behavior filtering out employees that care about Tweets deeply be positive?

Knowing that people like you with your reasons for not working there are not present and harassing people towards your view point could be a recruitment draw no?

How was Musks public image affecting their working conditions?

Inconsistent enforcement of the company's rules, which is the core of the letter is very much working conditions, and his behavior very clearly shows that he is not bound by those rules.

The letter makes that fairly clear. It's more challenging to focus on their mission, reducing opportunities for SpaceX, etc.

That's not even close to being considered protected activity.

Given you've spammed this misinformation all over this thread, despite being corrected on this point repeatedly, I'm not sure you're acting in good faith.

I've been corrected by folks going, "nuh uh". A discussion about retention, recruitment, enforcement of workplace policies, and airing of collective grievances is within bounds for protected. Provided it isn't deliberately offensive, an individual grievance, or knowingly false.

Several takedowns of your nonsense were made in good faith. You're being foolish at this point.

It would seem that some lawyers agree with that poster: https://www.theverge.com/2022/6/17/23172915/elon-musk-spacex...

He has the universal right to fire people for whatever he wants as long as it's not for a reason protected by US labor law. There are very few instances of "protected speech" with regard to employment.

Turns out discussing working conditions is one. And a very reasonable argument could be made that this letter is explicitly discussing working conditions.

Working conditions is a legal term and you can't redefine it to mean whatever you think affects you.

Protected concerted activity is the legal term, and broadly encompasses protections for workers who collectively discuss and attempt to improve, among other things, the conditions in their workplace.

I'm not redefining anything, the courts have broadly held that workers, when acting as a group and not just airing individual grievances, have protections for their speech. Things like corporate values, retention, recruiting, public sentiment, workplace diversity, etc are all potentially workplace conditions.

Workplace Conditions has a legal definition, but it is interpreted by the courts and those courts have the ability to adjust those definitions or interpret them as appropriate.

Do you have any example of where a state labor dept. or court applied your logic to a closely matching situation in a sustainable/unambiguous way (meaning it wasn’t overturned on appeal or settled)?

I ask because in your many comments all you’re doing is stating a hypothetical complaint that sounds plausible but I, as well as many others evidently, think would not have legs, ultimately. I can think of several examples in my career where employees have been fired for disruptive behavior or being a negative influence on morale - well within an employer’s rights. Those examples seem to line up more closely with this example at SpaceX than actual workplace conditions complaints I’ve seen.

I mean, props to you for going to the mat on this, but it’s past time you provide some evidence of your logic carrying the day in a real world example. Otherwise you’re just proposing wishful thinking as reasoning.

Working conditions is a legal term and you can't redefine it.

He owns a controlling position in the company. The board is supposed to do what he wants them to.

In theory, the board can still hold him accountable. There are laws that protect minority shareholders. But those board members will unlikely be around the next year.

He literally does not have any right.

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