Comment by sweetheart | Hacker News Reader

Comment by sweetheart | Hacker News Reader

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Rituals around slaughter don’t make the slaughter humane. You know that and I know that. If an animal is being killed for you when you don’t need to kill it to survive, it’s unnecessary suffering and animal abuse. Plain and simple. Genuine survival situations are different, but that is so rare in the developed world.

Saying a prayer doesn’t change anything. You didn’t give the animal the best life you could. You gave it the best life until you decide you wanted to consume it for your pleasure. Not survival, pleasure.

And vegans are well aware that life consumes life. Vegans consume living things. They just don’t consume living things which are capable of terror or depression and suffering.

Say a prayer all you want, but harming an animal when you don’t need to is the act of abusing an animal for pleasure. I can say a prayer and be remorseful and thank a dog for its sacrifice after I put it in a dog fight and it got ripped apart, but that’s still animal abuse. It’s still wrong. And like eating animals in the developed world, it’s for pleasure.

We didn't kill our animals to consume it for our pleasure. We grew up very poor and did not have enough land to grow enough food to survive through the winter. We had a large garden and most of my summers were spent working in the garden, and much of the autumn was filled with days of standing in front of a huge pot filled with vegetables, canning them for winter.

We were not wealthy and did not have a store close enough to run to every day for fresh produce. We took care of our animals because we relied on them for our survival. We did not take that for granted, and we did not do it for pleasure.

I understand that in an urban environment, surrounded by bountiful food (most of which is raised in other countries and is only available, out of local season, because of a complex web of global trade) the idea of killing and eating an animal can seem cruel or unnecessary. But your lack of experience of true poverty and lack of access to that sort of bounteous and constant source of non-animal products does not make all meat eaters inhumane and uncaring.

I find your broad, general statements of moral superiority because of your vegan lifestyle to be ignorant and a result of having grown up in opulence and wealth, surrounded by bounty and options, with little reflection or concern for those who did not grow up in those circumstances, or consideration as to whether they could still be moral and respectful in their desperation and struggles to survive.

Veganism explicitly makes room for people who are in situations where eating animal products is required to survive. I even explicitly mentioned that several times in what I wrote: when it’s not necessary, it’s wrong.

There is no moral obligation in a situation with a lack of choice. However, the VAST majority of people are not in situations where animal products must be eaten to survive.

But are you in that situation now? Do you need to eat animals to survive? If not, why do you do it?

I'm an Orthodox Christian, so I do not eat animal products (no meat, no dairy, no eggs, no olive oil, and no wine, to be specific) during our fasting periods throughout the liturgical year. Those fasting periods add up to more than six months out of the year. On non-fasting days I eat things from the list above to renew my strength and because I am just as prone to sins of the right-hand (being too strict) as I am prone to sins of the left hand (being too lax). If I were to not eat those foods at any time, I would personally be very prone to pride and to thinking of myself as "more spiritual" than those around me, which is a spiritual danger worse than what might come about from eating meat.

We are called to walk the Royal Path, and for those in the workaday world, that includes eating meat sometimes, and not eating meat sometimes. Regardless of what we are eating, however, we offer prayers of gratitude and thanksgiving and sorrow for living by the death of other living things.

If I were an Orthodox Christian monk, I would follow the restrictions I listed above all the time because those foods are known to enflame the passions, but are more necessary when one is working for a living and raising a family. I would spend much more time in prayer than my current schedule allows, however, but that is not my path at this time.

> We are called to walk the Royal Path, and for those in the workaday world, that includes eating meat sometimes

If I'm interpreting this correctly, you're saying you eat meat for 2 reasons. The first is that not doing so would make you too prideful, and the second is because it's in the "Royal Path", which we are called to.

I think the pigs, sheep, chickens, etc. would prefer you feel a little prideful, compared to what happens to them when you eat to them [1]. As for the "Royal Path" can you elaborate? Why does the Royal Path condone violence against non-humans?

1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zF7Ega_TpZE

I already answered that question when I said "...which is a spiritual danger worse than what might come about from eating meat", but you are ignoring my answer because you disagree, or because you do not recognize that danger. Pride is the most dangerous of all passions, and is the mother of all the other passions.

Okay so the Royal Path allows it because otherwise we are too prideful and thats really bad. So the pridefulness you'd feel is more important (or meaningful, significant, etc.) than the life of the animal and it's suffering?

It seems unfair to me that sentient animals need to die in your very personal battle with pride. Do you not see that as unfair?

Also, are you prideful when you abstain from eating baboon? Or when you abstain from eating hippopotamus, or giant squid? Why is it that pridefulness comes from abstaining from pig and chicken, but not any other animals you already don't eat?

I agree it's tragic that in our fallen world, we live by other living things dying. I pray every day for God's mercy on our fallen world, and for his mercy on my weakness.

I don't think this will make sense to you, and I understand why it wouldn't, but I trust the traditions of my faith, and the teachings of the Church Fathers in my tradition, more than I trust my own judgement.

The "higher path" in Orthodoxy is the monastic life, which includes not eating meat, dairy, eggs, (and only rarely eating olive oil and wine), but I am not a monk. And the "lower path" in Orthodoxy is to live in the world and to fast from those things for more days during the year than not. I follow the liturgical calendar, and I follow the teachings of my faith because I trust the accumulated wisdom of my faith more than I trust my own judgement, because I lack discernment and spiritual maturity. May God have mercy on us all. Please forgive me for not having a clearer or more satisfying answer for you.

I'm vegetarian and not vegan partly because the full purity and ingredient checking and all that is not good for my mental health. So maybe I understand where you are coming from, sort of, in a secular way.

That said I think it's important to remember that eating meat is not about you or me, it's about the animals we are (not) eating. The animal doesn't care about our reasons. If you imprisoned a cat and some days you tortured it and some days you left it alone, the cat would not care why. It could not even understand why and causing it pain for one's own spiritual growth seems, respectfully, prideful to me. There is no ethical middle path between sometimes torturing a cat and sometimes not. Probably if you told your priest about an imprisoned cat you were sometimes torturing he would tell you to release it immediately.

I trust 2,000 years of accumulated wisdom in my spiritual tradition more than I trust my own judgement. I don't completely disregard my own judgement, but I also recognize that I am easily deceived, I lack discernment, and that I cannot always trust my own motives, nor am I always aware of the consequences of my actions. That's why I have a priest, and why I rely on the traditions of my faith.

There is plenty of meat available that is almost cruelty-free. A factory farmed broiler chicken lives its entire 60,480 minutes (six weeks) in agony, while a hunted deer or pastured cow might only suffer a few minutes, and for the deer you might be saving it from an even worse fate. Maybe you are already buying meat that way.

I'm sorry that I compared what you feel to be a religious necessity to eat meat to torturing a cat. That was disrespectful. Discussions on eating meat should be less all-or-nothing. For example there is a tremendous amount of food wasted in the U.S., including animal products: https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/22890292/food-waste-meat-.... Reducing food waste is something I think everyone can support.

My meat intake all comes from locally raised meat where I physically go to the farm and can see how the animals are being treated.

I also agree that the "all or nothing" kind of tone that many people who advocate against eating meat takes is a hard line to sell. A "try a plant-based meal once a week" would be a much easier sell.

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