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Comment by mulmen | Hacker News Reader

My 2014 MacBook is no longer getting major updates. Apple is still popping up ads for the latest MacOS, even though I can’t install it. I considered buying a new Mac with Apple silicon but the last three MacOS releases have been enormous regressions. At this point a Framework seems to make a lot more sense.

I hated everything about the UX on Big Sur and they seem to have doubled down on their poor decisions. This news destroys the final bit of hope I had that they’d correct the MacOS path the way they did with MacBook hardware.

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The idea that someone would switch to the Windows (or linux) ecosystem because of some visual tweaks to MacOS settings is very amusing to me.

For example, have you ever used the system settings panel in Windows? It’s the most confusing, horrible, and neglected part of the OS. For like 15 years they had mashed together settings panels from different versions of Windows without even bothering to make them visually consistent. Ditto for a lot of Linux distros.

I think you’re overthinking it. MacOS has barely changed at all in last 20 years from a UI perspective compared to Windows. Upgrading from an 8 year old intel model to an M1/M2 model is going to feel like strapping on a jetpack.

"Upgrading from an 8 year old intel model to an M1/M2 model is going to feel like strapping on a jetpack."

i did just that, and it simply felt "normal" again after years of increased slowdowns on every macOS update without any noticeable big improvement to the UX.

The bloat is real.

No. My MacBook Pro is a 2012 pre retina with a decent Samsung evo SSD and 16GB RAM. It has a OCLP’d Monterey install and it is smooth and functional.I dev on this machine and honestly, same hardware runs MacOS better than Windows 10 (212H iirc) in Bootcamp. This is VS Mac building Mac Catalyst, Android and iOS apps. Building my pet PSP tool chain for .Net and Retro68 GCC port for BeOS PowerPC. Nothing trivial.

This is my conjecture, too. M1 is fast, but only because MacOS is ludicrously slow. Apple has their hardware figured out right now, but their software experience keeps me away from using MacOS

I think you're just getting used to the M1.

There's only been 1-2 major macOS releases since the M1 launch and benchmarks have gotten faster during that time. There's simply been no "years of increased slowdowns".

> There's only been 1-2 major macOS releases since the M1 launch

Consider that the "years of increased slowdowns" probably referred to the years before the M1 was released a year or two ago. Which would make sense, as the comparison was pre-M1 vs post-M1.

Again, the benchmarks for M1 have gotten faster by macOS release, so my comment is entirely within the scope of what OP was saying.

The rest is irrelevant to the point.

> The idea that someone would switch to the Windows (or linux) ecosystem because of some visual tweaks to MacOS settings is very amusing to me.

That wasn't even the gripe. They have disliked the last few major revisions of macOS. I think that's a good enough reason to consider a switch.

Spending a week on Windows will help provide some perspective… it’s hard to remember just how bad things can get when you’re spoiled by MacOS for so long.

I am not too happy with the direction macOS is moving towards, though I do understand Apple’s motivations and agree it is still better than Windows. For reference: been a Mac user ever since I was like 10 years old or so, starting with System 6.0.

I do feel some Linux or perhaps a BSD system with a GUI like WindowMaker might feel like an improvement at this point.

It’s something I will probably try in the coming year.

Just curious how you would describe in a couple sentences what that direction feels to you

Apple's OS is becoming more and more secure and while I understand this makes sense for the average user, it brings many annoyances. Also from a developer perspective (notarisation, having to jump through hoops to install software from 'untrusted sources', etc...). This is my biggest annoyance with macOS at this point.

I'd like to have a system that is 'less secure' in which I feel I have more control over my system.

Also it seems Apple is moving apps included in macOS to be more in line with iOS, which is not really something I like to see. It will likely dumb down app functionality.

I think you expressed my feelings as well quite accurately. Dumbing down + adding more (unfortunately somewhat necessary on a mainstream platform) annoyances and hoops.

I used OS X exclusively from 2008 onward, and I switched fully to linux late last year. I managed to make the switch tolerable by learning and falling in love with tiling window managers and minimal desktop environments that are available on linux. I could never stand 'traditional' desktop environments on linux, they always felt so clunky. With Sway (or i3 on my desktop), the operating system just disappears out of sight. All I see is what I want. A little bar with information and system status, a browser window, a bloated text messaging program or two, and heaps of terminals. Really fast, too, unlike macOS.

My work provides me with a Surface to do my thing. I get to experience both. With that birds-eye view, I can decide that none of my money gets spent on Windows. Xbox, sure. Windows, pfft.

If I switch to Framework I will run Linux on it.

> It’s the most confusing, horrible, and neglected part of the OS.

The worst part is: It's not even neglected. It's been undergoing constant changes, and while they're mostly for the better, the constant stream of changes really highlights how poorly thought out it was in the first place, and makes finding anything an exercise in frustration.

>> makes finding anything an exercise in frustration

That's what I use Spotlight for. Years ago someone pointed that use of Spotlight out to me and I've been using it that way ever since. No longer have to pull up System Preferences and I can find any setting I need immediately.

> For like 15 years they had mashed together settings panels from different versions of Windows without even bothering to make them visually consistent.

Closer to 30 years actually - there are many configuration dialogs which have been virtually or entirely unchanged since their first appearance.

I've been using Macs for nearly 30 years, and over the past few years, I've been switching to Linux, at leasat for personal stuff. At work, I sill try to avoid Windows (and the crappy work-issued Dell hardware). There's definitely a feeling that new Mac development from Apple is more a thing to dread than to look forward to.

Looking forward to the day when Linux becomes the de facto OS that MS and Apple look up to for inspiration.

MacOS seems to be slowly morphing into Gnome.

Its new settings looks like Windows 11.

And that is the sad state of things, it isn't macOS ( old or new ) is perfect, but neither Windows or Linux Distro seems to be trying to compete.

wow - pick a terrible choice because there is only one other choice that is worse.. really?

MacOS has changed dramatically in the last 3 years alone. This isn’t just UI tweaks, although those are annoying. I have daily driven MacOS for 10 years now. It’s no longer serviceable.

Specifics? I’m not saying you’re wrong — different use cases are different use cases — but I just don’t see anything in the last three releases that changed it enough to make it unserviceable for any previously suitable use case.

Been using macOS/OSX for work since 2010 or 2011. It seems basically the same to me, aside from a couple performance-enhancing releases that really did improve things noticeably. And better/smoother interoperation with iOS and iCloud. I don't see any big differences.

iOS, that's changed a lot. Could we move back toward iOS 6? I still miss it.

I’ve used OSX on Intel since Leopard (10.5), though I have a Jaguar (10.2), Panther (10.3) install on my old PowerBook and Tiger (10.4) on my G4 Mac Mini, and small things changed, but on the whole the OS is the same. I mean, Aqua style changed massively between 10.2 and 10.5, so there are arguments that the UI might have seemed better to some pre Intel. For me, Spotlight, Exposé and Spaces made a massive difference and that is what I miss most when I have to do something on a legacy install. Even Tiger is painful to use because of missing Spaces and Exposé.

I use Monterey at the moment on my main Mac and it’s absolutely fine.

Tiger has Exposé, it was introduced in Panther.

Possibly the lack of spaces? I use Exposé mostly to organise my spaces these days. I use older OSX less and less as PowerPC is only useful to developing the retro68 port. Since I got Sorbet Leopard on the G4 it also hardly boots Tiger.

The one big core OS thing that's changed by my reckoning— and I don't even believe it was within the last three releases— is the hoop jumps required to run unsigned code. I honestly don't see a problem with the move because they do provide a path to execute it when you need to, but it could probably be a little more straightforward.

I don't use music, but whenever I connect a bluetooth audio device, it opens. You can't disable it without disabling SIP.

Just tried this with a pair of AudioTechnica headphones and an Insigia bluetooth speaker and couldn't reproduce it. Tried regular already-paired connections and removing/pairing. Maybe it's driver-specific with something you're using?

Enormous regressions? I could agree on “not great” but that was strong words. Haven’t really had a lot of trouble with the updates. I would say that macos 2014 and 2022 have a lot more in common than 2014 macos and current linux.

Messages basically doesn’t work anymore. I had to disable Time Machine because of the thrash of indexing itself. The UI makes no sense anymore. They removed established shortcuts for… no reason? There’s some kind of pseudo-touch style going on. Like they plan to add a touch screen but didn’t. The iOS-ification continues.

MacOS is a clear second class citizen at Apple. Each of the least three releases has been worse than the one before. I hoped it was the last gasp of Ive but it’s apparently intentional. Or maybe nobody is in charge, which would make more sense.

At this point Linux looks like a better option.

What's even more frustrating was the removal of 32-bit apps in Catalina and the continued deprecation of OpenGL. So many functional apps where the developers have lost interest are now non-functional. Not to even start on the irritating, vista-like security prompts for apps that are not signed (which in development is a lot...).

MacOS has become less and less pleasant to use in that last 3 to 5 years for me as a developer, because of this. Which is such a shame, because the new Macbook Pro's are really amazing machines, hardware-wise. Great keyboard, Magsafe, no Touchbar, amazing screen and great battery life.

I will be requesting a Linux (or Windows.. whatever) laptop at work if this one dies.

There is literally no hardware support for 32 bit apps in the latest ARM processors. The die space was used for something more useful.

I will take Metal over Khronos APIs any day of the week, if Khronos would be doing the Internet, all we would have as standard would be IP protocol, with everything else as custom extensions.

The Khronos APIs are the ones I have more experience with, and it pains me that all these years it stays as kind of initialiation ritual to go through all the things they miss versus proprietary APIs.

Everyone has to write their own mini-engine with their APIs.

If not for the removal of 32-bit apps, we would not have ARM chips in our computers. What do you think of Microsoft's depreciation of 32-bit?

What are some of these interesting, unmaintained 32-bit apps you speak of?

The only Steam game in my library that still works now is Myst.

The list of Steam games that even supported macOS at all was already quite short, but now Portal, Portal 2, Team Fortress, the entire Half-Life series, and quite a few others will no longer run.

The switch to Apple silicon machines also makes running them in a VM tricky. Even though Windows supports running x86 code on Arm hardware, the mix of architectures inside the VM creates new problems, particularly for Steam.

Nomenclature wise, those are games, not exactly apps. What are some applications that are missing?

Samsung Easy Document Creator scanner app.

With it, I could at least scan. Image Capture/Preview just produce invalid files. (Samsung M2070w). Now to scan I have to use Linux or Windows machine.

What do you mean by invalid files? I never had a problem with Preview scanner.

You can also try VueScan, which is a spartan UI, but works great.

Invalid files as in it creates PDF, but it is not valid PDF and it will fail to open. When trying to scan into TIFF, it will crash.

It is pretty much device specific; an HP MFP at home works fine. The Samsung app was an workaround, but it was pretty obvious that nobody is going to fix Image Capture.

The most painful one for me: https://wxtoimgrestored.xyz

Tascam us-122mkII support was dropped. It is ancient, but it still works and there was a Windows 10 driver. I just got a cheaper Behringer uphoria that uses standard USB audio (or whatever) but loosing the Tascam was annoying.

If you're asking this question and not a Mac user I'll eat my Macbook.

start eating

They're an Objective C developer, so no, I won't. It's a very typical Apple device user response of 'why would you want to do that?' epitomised by Jobs' 'you're holding it wrong' advice.

new mbp has touchbar.

Not really. The last hold out is the 13”, but that design has not changed since it was Intel based. The 14 and 16” versions have no touchbar and I would guess the 13” won’t either on the next redesign.

i hadn't noticed that, good eye.

> Messages basically doesn’t work anymore.

What do you mean?

Huge CPU hog. Features that exist on mobile are missing on desktop. There’s no timestamps on messages. I’m not sure search even exists. Sync with iCloud only mostly works.

This has not been my experience. No cpu issues, I can see time stamps on messages if I choose, I can search messages, if there are feature differences between mobile and desktop they are not features I am using, and between my Apple Watch, iPad, iPhone and Mac, all my messages are sync’d just fine.

To be honest, the apple ecosystem stuff and how well it works, for me, is one of the biggest benefits of Apple. I walk up to my computer and my watch unlocks it. I can take a call or respond to a message literally on whatever device I happen to be on. For me, I can put up with UI/UX quirks in features like system preferences that I use maybe one or twice a month.

Its the holistic experience that matters to me.

Right click a message window -> show times.

Search works great. My CPU is idle. Sync iCloud works perfectly if you toggle your iPhone to also share SMS with your Mac.

hover over the message window and swipe left with two fingers to see all of the times

The messages rewrite that happened a version of two ago was the bring it inline with the mobile features - it is much closer now. It seems to still have some bugs though. But, I have timestamps on every group of messages and if I slide to the left I see each message timestamp.

You can see timestamps if you do a two-finger swipe to the right on a trackpad. Not sure how you'd do it with a non-Apple mouse.

> There’s no timestamps on messages

Right click in the message pane and select "Show Times"

> I’m not sure search even exists

Search exists and seems to work pretty well

But at least search finally works.

If you are legitimately using an 8 year old laptop I can imagine the experience is pretty awful. That has practically nothing to do with the OS.

I have a 2015 MacBook Pro. I'm typing on it now. I admittedly do mostly fairly lightweight stuff on it--I do photo/video editing elsewhere although until recently that was a 2015 iMac--but it works fine for that. Certainly not an awful experience.

Why? It’s got 16g of RAM and a blazing fast SSD. I had to get the heatsinks cleaned out once. There’s definitely slowdowns but they’re resolved by reboots which makes me think it’s more to do with software than hardware.

Have you heard of this thing called a CPU? The ones Apple puts in its machines have gotten much faster since 2015. All kidding aside, you have a CPU from the nadir of Intel's slow march into irrelevance. I went from a 2013 Air to an M1.

It wasn't the software.

> Enormous regressions?

Well I would consider hiding system traffic from firewalls to prevent tracing to be an enormous one, wouldn't you?

https://www.obdev.at/support/littlesnitch/245914647368270

Oh I almost forgot about the image scanning regression:

https://techcrunch.com/2021/12/15/apple-removes-csam-detecti...

And the ominously named "Gatekeeper"

https://www.engadget.com/macos-slow-apps-launching-221445977...

"UPDATE: This issue has been resolved in macOS Big Sur 11.2. Apple has removed this whitelist completely, allowing third-party firewalls like Little Snitch to reliably monitor and filter any network traffic." - the Little Snitch link

A one-time certificate server slowdown two years ago and two deeply unpopular features that they scrapped?

> Apple is still popping up ads for the latest MacOS, even though I can’t install it.

I have this on my 11 inch Air from whenever it was - maybe I can get them for false advertising - because they are saying I can have some great new features if I click the button ...

> Apple is still popping up ads for the latest MacOS, even though I can’t install it.

This seems like a bug they might actually fix? As opposed to the "bug" of showing you those at all, which is pretty annoying but unlikely to get looked at.

Or not because I’m on old hardware so who cares? The only bug is that clicking it doesn’t send me to apple.com to buy a new Mac.

It may even be intentionally left in. Newer is better, and your PC can no longer run the new. Upgrade time!

In what world is a 2 hour battery life laptop better than a laptop with a 20 hour battery and amazing performance?

The OS is perfectly fine.

Is battery only thing that you think is better on Mac so you mentioned only this one thing? Lol. I'm really considering getting new Air with M2 but man, battery is one of the last things to compare. It's _nice_ to have long battery life but it definitely not killer feature by any means

If it’s a laptop battery life should be the first thing to compare. The ability to be anywhere and not worry about battery life seems like THE #1 most important aspect.

It used to be, but these days laptops are the new desktops.

Almost no one buys desktops anymore, even though they are obviously a better choice in many regards, including ergonomics, if the thing is to be strapped to a desk 100% of the time.

The batteries on my laptops are pragmatically just a UPS. The time between occasions that I need to use my laptop on the hoof (for more than "two hours") is so long that the age of the battery is a far bigger factor to consider than the software being run. I don't loiter at coffee shops unless I'm on a date, and libraries/offices/hotels have outlets.

Speaking of UPSes, I wish that desktops/servers would just chuck a laptop battery socket on the back. Batteries are the only real difference between desktops and laptops, and desktops need them nearly as much as laptops do.

Because as soon as that 100% becomes a reasonable number like 98%, a laptop is your only choice.

The market for desktop computers is a market for people who also own laptops, with very few exceptions (mostly gamers).

The 98% would probably be better served with a very light with great battery laptop and beefy, quiet, large screen and good keyboard, desktop but instead end up buying something that's not great for either use case.

Personally, I have a minimum expectation, but beyond that, it moves a lot lower on my priority list, too. I wouldn't accept 2 hours, but once something hits 5-6, it's usually GoodEnough for my case (though, I'm not OP). Of course, I would love 20hr, but the OS, etc. starts to become more important at some point.

It's a desktop operating system. The software itself doesn't have a very robust impact on battery life.

Just to clarify, it seems that most people are getting much more than 2hr on their framework - are you referring to something else?

The world where I haven’t been on battery for more than an hour in years but I fight with the OS daily.

Battery life is more a hardware concern than software anyway.

I actually just upgraded my late 2012 MBP to Monterey last week using OpenCore Legacy Patcher [1]. Everything works great so far. Your 2014 MBP should be supported as well.

Made me wonder how part-time hobbyist with minimal resources can continue supporting old hardwares while a trillion dollar company cannot.

[1] https://dortania.github.io/OpenCore-Legacy-Patcher/START.htm...

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