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Comment by sacrosancty | Hacker News Reader

Just a suggestion, but if your relationship with your wife depends on your personal circumstances and mood, then it sounds not very strong. Might be worth taking advantage of this good period to do some relationship strengthening exercises while you can so that when the next downturn happens, you can both understand each other's and your own feelings better. I'm not talking about random activities like going to the beach but finding a good self-help book or therapist and sitting down together working through it regularly. It's easy for problems to grow silently until they're too big to fix. Relationships are far more important than jobs, money or houses.

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It is pretty normal for poor mental health to take a toll on relationships. Sometimes the problem really is that simple.

But with that said, it is always a good time to work on yourself and relationships.

Shameless plus one, I’ve been with my wife for 10 years - when we’re both happy as individuals were happy as a couple. Sometimes people just need to do the hard work of finding happiness on their own. Someone else can’t make you feel happy with your career.

partners should support each other, especially through trying times. but your happiness should not only depend on your partner. if it does then any problem in the relationship can quickly spiral into something unfixable.

on the other hand, being individually happy is not enough. if your partnership does not add anything to your happiness then you are more like roommates.

you are fortunate until now, but i would not rely on being able to keep that going without your partners help. you say you are happy as a couple when you are happy individually, but there is more to a relationship than just your individual happiness.

i would investigate how your relationship is really doing. is your wife as happy as you are? how would you deal with difficult times as a couple? what might happen if your work changed and you no longer feel happy there?

how are you supporting each other?

> more like roommates.

I've semi-jokingly referred to my relationship as 'like roommates'. We've discussed at length that 'this time in our lives' is the busiest we've ever been with early teen kids playing various sports, playing musical instruments, having braces, dealing with hormones and their personalities developing into 'who they're going to be as adults', fuck it's a lot.

I just had a couple of days off sick, and it was like a fucking holiday.

Unsolicited advice: If your long term relationship hasn't yet reached 'pre- and early-teen kids', then make sure you're ready for it. Get your house in order, because it's going to feel like your life and dreams are on pause for five to ten years whilst you develop the best little adults you possibly can. And you will need each other to lean on for the duration.

Shit, I have two kids under 4 and have been telling myself it will be a lot easier by the time they are that age!

It's different, it's all hard but increasingly rewarding - if you've put in the work early to get the rewards later.

The first swear word is a beautiful moment to be revisited regularly :)

I thought that is supposed to be the easy time?

As in, when children are born, the first 6 months are a nightmare, the next ~3 years are extremely tough, then as they get more independent and grown that's when it gets good? That 'pre- and early-teen' is supposed to be the best part, when you can more-or-less deal with them like with adults and they are fairly independent?

if that is what you expect, then our kids were angels. really we had no trouble with them. they slept pretty well very early, maybe because they slept in our bed so feeding them at night was easy. we had a nanny for help, but i was working from home so i could spend a lot of time with them. we'll see how it will be when they are older. so far it's going well though.

i think what makes kids tough to deal with is not accepting their behavior as it is. when you want them to be a certain way, but you don't know how to get them to be that way. even when i see problematic kids portrayed on tv many times i feel that the kids don't have a problem, but it's the parents who can't deal with it. they don't take the kids seriously and don't respect them or consider their needs. with that attitude, kids will be difficult at any age.

Fuck my kids can be annoying. They're so much like their dad.

;)

I think there's a "know thyself" problem for those who have difficulty with their kids. They'll behave like you, and if you're not happy with yourself then you won't be happy with them.

Both of mine are so often overtly like me I often ask my wife: when are YOU having kids?

To which she replies: three is more than enough.

(Explainer: we have two kids, I'm the third).

I'm the third

yup that's a classic.

I think there's a "know thyself" problem for those who have difficulty with their kids. They'll behave like you, and if you're not happy with yourself then you won't be happy with them.

very much so. but it works the other way too. seeing myself reflected in my kids motivates me to change my behavior.

and parents changing their behavior is the only thing that works. applying two different standards and thinking that certain behavior is only ok for adults but not for kids (swearing for example) doesn't work.

for anyone who missed it, a longer discussion on the topic is here btw: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31703675

As reply to you and anonymousDan: I love it, and I may be overstating it to some extent. I love my kids and watching them grow but, because they're like me, the effort required to explain things is increased because their perspectives require answers with a level of detail that makes them understand, because with 'the little things' understanding is a prerequisite of compliance. Scaring them with loud angry voice isn't enough if your argument isn't solid. My son is unbelievably good at pointing out my hypocrisies and logical flaws, god it's so annoying and beautifully satisfyingly fulfilling all at once.

My wife and I both work, our weekly routine is as follows:

* Monday: daughter piano lesson 4:30-5pm, son soccer practise 7-8:30pm

* Tuesday: daughter dance 6pm-8:30pm

* Wednesday: son soccer practise, until his coach went to play a comp he was getting tennis coaching 5-5:30

* Thursday: rest day, although sons tennis team get together for a hit most evenings, dads also play

* Friday: son tennis comp 6-8pm, daughter dance practise 6-8:30pm, I take my niece roller skating 7:30-9:30pm

* Saturday: Dance comp season there are dance competitions every third week or so, when there's no competition they do 'teams' dance practise, I play tennis comp 1-4:30pm

* Sunday: son soccer game

I try to fit in four or five stretches, weights, exercise sessions per week as well to slow the decline of age.

So, yeah, I fit in playing tennis and roller skating weekly, so I get to scratch those itches, and I have time to tinker with personal projects, and watch movies and shows, but they always feel like 'slices' of time. My job isn't hugely demanding, by my wife's is, plus she does the cooking (because she's the picky one, says I).

But there's also managing screen time, bed times (they're both night owls), chores, homework, school drop offs and pickups, their friends, our friends (!), taxes, banking, finances, physio appointments, car servicing, fixing the goddam toilet and a leaky tap, and I'll fix the WiFi in a minute, and funerals, and birthday parties (they're much less of a big deal then when the kids are under 10, glad that stage has passed).

We've got a great network of family support without which we'd probably have to cut some activities or require more flexible working arrangements. We're using the whole fucking village (but we're also contributing).

I wouldn't have it any other way, and I wouldn't have thought I could cope with all of that if I wasn't in the middle of coping with it.

BUT you need to support you partner and you partner needs to support you.

And I'm totally aware that in the (near?) future we're going to need to support our kids with theirs, and wouldn't you know it: I think I'm kinda looking forward to that.

Am I the only one that thinks it's rude to give unsolicited marital advice based on absolutely no facts

Considering how grateful OP is for the advice shared by the community here previously, my impression is they're open to the continued advice. It's hardly unsolicited. I don't consider it rude when people are trying to be genuinely helpful. If you consider that rude you might be overly sensitive yourself and missing the bigger context.

It's not happening here, but: I really really don't understand people who get offended by "unsolicited" advice. Chances are it's coming from a place of honest care and concern. Just ignore it if it doesn't pertain to you. When you get a strong reaction from someone in response to unsolicited advice, I find more often than not it's actually striking a chord and probably more needed than the person realizes. I'd want that feedback whether I solicited it or not, personally.

In not especially offended, but it does rub me the wrong way when people make negative assumptions about others, then offer their advice.

To me it comes off as condescension, not actually help. If they wanted to help or cared, they would seek to understand first. Unsolicited and more importantly uninformed advice shows a disregard for the recipient.

It reminds me of legal advice threads where people give terrible advice because they are too busy speaking to even read the original post.

Re-read Lumost post, and then em-bee's unsolicited diagnosis and advice. They are absolutely making assumptions and suggesting a narrative about an uncollaborative and deficient marriage.

At the end of the day, people are free to post what they want, but having some community standards is what prevents things from devolving into rabble and insults.

For my part, I want to use that freedom to tell people that it is unproductive and generally considered rude to make unsolicited, uncharitable, and uninformed assumptions about the marriages of others. Moreso, because I think are giving out factually bad advice.

> For my part, I want to use that freedom to tell people that it is unproductive and generally considered rude to make unsolicited, uncharitable, and uninformed assumptions about the marriages of others. Moreso, because I think are giving out factually bad advice.

Perhaps you should respond to the factually bad parts, because that's actually debatable. Leading with "that's rude" is a personal sentiment and all it takes to rebut that is a "no, it's really not".

I did in a sibling thread

I agree. But since unsolicited advice is low effort, it's hard to stop that sort of thing becoming the dominant form of narrative

Well sometimes unsolicited advice is not really helpful advice but really is just a thin veneer over judgement and criticism.

Similarly if you’re finding yourself prefacing comments with “No offense, but…” just don’t say them. Offense avoided.

that's a very good point. something to consider when writing a comment. especially in a forum like this where it is difficult to interpret the intent of a message, or the attitude of the writer. i certainly hope that my comments aren't seen as being judgemental, but i can't be sure.

Consciously off-topic: Posting on an open forum invites it.

The comment to which you're replying makes some good points and isn't finger-pointy, and is more suggestive of potential gaps to fill. Any long-term relationship requires hard work, and so advice is often a helpful reminder of this, whether the advice is good or not it can trigger a re-evaluation of perspective; a view from the outside of what may have become taken for granted from the inside.

> Someone else can’t make you feel happy with your career

Someone else can’t make you happy.

But they can sure as hell make you unhappy! And it's up to you to keep that in mind.

Why would they be able to make you unhappy but not be able to make you happy? How can they affect one but not both?

Doing a thing „A“ is not the same as not doing a thing „B“ that looks like the opposite of A. E.g.: not healing your broken leg is very different from breaking your leg.

By being assholes. It happens

They can make you unhappy by being not nice with you.

They can help you being more happy by supporting you.

But if you're really unhappy about your life or work, that's usually not enough

>Sometimes people just need to do the hard work of finding happiness on their own.

I mean.. it's not like most people haven't tried that. Things are just more complicated than that in real life, and not all problems can be fixed. Consider perhaps you guys are lucky to not have any such issues and are therefore both able to find happiness on your own

it shouldn't have to be normal. ideally your partner is supporting you especially in times like this. you should be able to share with your wife what OP shared with HN. if he had, the result might have been to not only get a new job but get a job in a different location, with a new, bigger house. it's more work to pull that off, and not something they could have done while the relationship is sour, but possible if they work together.

big life decisions should never be made alone. OP came here to help make his decision, which is better than deciding all by himself but consulting with his wife would have been better still.

You’re getting shit on for no good reason. It’s like people here have never been in a problematic relationship or had to work through things with their partners. I really hope I never have to be or deal with their partners.

You’re right. Ideally your partner should support you. You also shouldn’t be thinking of divorcing your wife because of your job - that sounds ridiculous and like your wife is actually a net drain to your life. (Been there…) That said - it shouldn’t be that way. If the wife is being terrible then they need to shape up and not be terrible. Partners should add value to your life and not drain it. Together you should be greater than the sum of your parts. Even when you’re both struggling - you should find comfort in that you’re both not alone in your struggle.

As well - this idea that you should be atomically happy and there should be no outside influences on your well being is just an asinine juvenile belief. Do we expect babies to not cry out for their mother? Why is it that when you’re desiring something you somehow need to become the Buddha? The fuck is wrong with people. Sometimes you just need a hug and some support from someone in your life who loves you and is willing to be there for you. You don’t need to be some mythical stoic creature who cares about nothing in this world like you’re a nihilist.

I legit wonder if maybe some of you are just super neurodivergent and need to tag yourselves as such before making such wild ass statements about how to interact with other people. Fucking HN.

Everyone on HN and reddit has to be the most right and be unnecessarily argumentative. And that includes you and me. It’s a compulsion.

> Everyone on HN and reddit has to be the most right and be unnecessarily argumentative. And that includes you and me. It’s a compulsion.

This is exactly why I think social media is cancerous, it normalizes that conversations devolve into a contentious battle of words for dopamine feedback loops. It's pretty pathetic that you think that is how people interact in the real World, perhaps you should interact with people in real life more often to address you 'compulsion' rather than assert your need to do so in every interaction.

I disagree only half ironically. In some ways, we are living through a golden age of debate. It just isn't well distributed. The problem is that it is difficult to maintain Community standards and incentives for what would legitimately be considered debate (EG listening, addressing the other person's point and maintaining good faith and civility.) There is a parallel and greater growth of online argument which many people conflate with debate. This is fed by online point systems and engagement. It is the latter that is bleeding over into the real world and causing problems.

> I legit wonder if maybe some of you are just super neurodivergent and need to tag yourselves as such before making such wild ass statements about how to interact with other people. Fucking HN.

I've come to this realization given how prevalent tech is with people with ADHD and Autism pretty early on and since HN is mainly tech people it's quite common to see this type of response. I used to think it was most trying to live up to some edgelord persona they've built up online but after going from idealism based startup World and stepping into the megacorp level tech worker I think it really is clear that it's the former given how they interact with people and can't read social cues at all and feel the need to interject with outlandish conclusions with seemingly no tact or discretion.

The prevalence of this issue is spoken openly by people who are afflicted but have developed coping mechanisms, but I fear that is the exception not the norm as most just insulate themselves further rather than ever address them.

As for OP, I've been in demanding relationships with partners that seem to have a need to want to make it clear to their friends/family that they're on course to marry up more than have a fulfilling relationship, and it was incredibly draining albeit an amazing learning experiences so I'm glad they never went beyond the girlfriend level for that reason. I've seen some pretty stark reactions to people in long term relationships (mainly boomer age) who 'made those work' during COVID which re-enforced the fact that most people were in what were marriages of convenience(s) as it was clear to see when they were forced to live with one another under lockdown and things got dark real fast--hence why so many divorces and things like substance abuse took place during that time.

With that said I'm glad you've been able to regain agency in your professional life, perhaps she was just giving you a goal to get your mind back to former ways?

I'm not interested in making up stories about OP. We don't know how supportive their partner was, how much they shared, and how collaborate they were in the process. We also don't know what alternate realities might have been.

I think it is kinda rude to make these assumptions.

I'm just saying there are plenty of problems love, support, and teamwork can't fix. Doubly so when you don't know what is wrong in the first place. A healthy marriage can help in rough times and be a source of strength and resiliency, but is hardly a panacea for all of life's problems.

there are plenty of problems love, support, and teamwork can't fix.

hard disagree. there isn't a single problem that can't be fixed in a good relationship.

OP would not have needed to come here and ask for help if he had been able to talk with his wife about his problems.

>OP would not have needed to come here and ask for help if he had been able to talk with his wife about his problems.

wow - Because his wife is an expert in software career development, burnout, and real-estate? For all we know his wife suggested he get feedback here!

>hard disagree. there isn't a single problem that can't be fixed in a good relationship.

I am fine to agree to disagree. PSA, if you have cancer, see an oncologist. No amount of love from your partner will fix it.

because his wife (and the kids) are going to be affected by the decisions he makes.

it doesn't take an expert in career development.

a partner is also the person that you should be able to share your innermost feelings with.

burnout especially is something partners should talk about. if your partner doesn't understand why you have problems at work then that will cause problems in the relationship.

sure once you have identified a problem you may need to seek out an expert. but you should still talk with your partner before taking any steps.

if i come home telling my wife that i decided to move to new york because they have the best treatment for my cancer then that's not going to fly. that kind of decision only both can take together.

same goes for changing jobs. it might change the commute, oe require a move. or reduce their income. OP was unhappy at work, taking on a better, but less well paid job was at least a possibility.

Why do you continually assume they don't talk with their partner??? You seem stuck on this point

sorry, i read your post to fast, and missed the part where you say that the wife may have suggested to ask here.

the reason i am stuck on this is because from my experience and from what marriage counselors have told me, the majority of relationship problems come from lack of communication.

OP considering divorce doesn't sound like there was any sensible communication between them at the time.

Thank you for rereading and for sharing.

My experience differs. In my experience, multiple marriage and personal counselors have been very clear that there are personal problems and relationship problems. Personal problems can cause relationship problems, and often times a spouse can only lend support as individuals work through their personal problem.

It can be unhealthy and destructive to expect your spouse or relationship to solve a personal problem.

People can have other types of problems besides relationship problems.

> Personal problems can cause relationship problems, and often times a spouse can only lend support as individuals work through their personal problem.

Totally agreed with this.

In my experience (~7 years married) I didn't acknowledge I had anxiety for a really long time -- because I didn't know it. Up until the moment I actually acknowledged it I couldn't "level up" in my relationship.

On top of that, people change with time and experience (for better or worse). I feel like I am a completely different person than who I was when I first got married. Fortunately, I changed in ways that happened to be good for my relationship -- but I truly believe that some people have to level up by leaving a relationship -- even if it's not necessarily a "bad" relationship.

I.E. a relationship may begin with or without religion and if that changes for one of them it could be a breaking change for the other -- even if the people still treat each other with mutually love and respect and are hypothetically perfectly healthy with one another.

i agree with that. the partner can't solve personal problems, but support from the partner is often necessary and helpful in order to allow the other to solve their problem. especially when that problem affects the relationship

I wouldn't call the attitude that one ought to be able to get all the support one needs from one's partner, no matter what, healthy. That can lead to an entire category of relationship failure, I'd say.

that's a fair point and that's not what i meant.

partners should be supportive of each other and they should work together to solve problems. but a solution can include bringing in outside help.

the point is that any approach to solve a problem starts with looking at that problem with your partner and together deciding the next steps

> that's a fair point and that's not what i meant.

Apologies for the misunderstanding, then. Agree that keeping one's partner "in the loop", especially early on [edit: early on in seeking help for something, that is, not early on in the relationship], is generally advisable.

> there isn't a single problem that can't be fixed in a good relationship.

Do you think that contradicts what you quoted? Yes, you can fix those problems. But sometimes it takes more than love, support, and teamwork. Sometimes you need to make other changes.

i oversimplified. of course it takes more than just love, support and teamwork. you also need to act.

those other changes are the result of love support and teamwork. love, support and teamwork are the necessary conditions to find out what changes are necessary, and to be able to carry them out.

So what did you "hard disagree" about then?

i understood the statement

there are plenty of problems love, support, and teamwork can't fix

to imply that love, support, and teamwork are not always what is needed to fix a problem. and that the solution is elsewhere.

but at least when it comes to problems that affect the family and the relationship, without love, support, and teamwork nothing can be fixed. only if you have love, support, and teamwork then you can find a solution. they are a necessary condition.

i think in the further discussion we reached a common understanding that this doesn't mean that love, support, and teamwork are sufficient. they don't make the problem just go away. sometimes the solution requires further action, or outside help. nor does it mean that the love and support of one partner can solve the problems of the other on their own, but rather it is the process of collaboration and consultation of the partners with each other combined with love and support by both that enables the finding and implementation of a solution.

one thing that may have lead to the confusion is that to me, the teamwork part already implies that there is more work being done to solve a problem. love and support alone can help address a problem without hurting the relationship further, but teamwork then makes it go away. to me it implies all the work being done to solve the problem.

> ideally your partner is supporting you

In reality she will leave you for a guy who isn’t so miserable all the time.

It is certainly a possibility. It is not uncommon for people to have a personal problem that they refused to address which is unacceptable for their partner, even if they love them.

I think that you're missing his point which is that when you are unhappy, it is not always easy to pinpoint the cause of that unhappiness and it is very easy to start casting around for an explanation and end up blaming the wrong part of your life for your misery. You might think that this isn't believable but the unhappiness colours everything in your life and so it isn't as obvious as it seems.

All the more reason to listen to GP. Your partner should be someone to lean on, not blame. They likely don’t see them in the right light.

I'm not sure what this really means in practice, though. Going to them for support is an entirely different thing than feeling distressed that they are insisting on a major life change you disagree with. I don't think it'd be healthier to always agree with them. They're an independent mind, it's inevitable you will butt heads every once in a while

For example, the OP seems to know (he writes it in the post) that he was fighting with his wife because he was generally stressed. It would be interesting to know if, once he had this realisation after changing jobs, he actually sat down and told his wife "you know, I'm sorry for how I was with you. I was unhappy and I poured it on you. Did you realise it back then? What can we do to make it better next time? Thank you for bearing with me."

best comment.

not just thanks but get her a gift too. something that requires you to put in an effort that she sees and understands.

Lines you won't see on a gravestone:

"I wish I had worked more."

"I wish I had a less meaningful relationship with my wife."

… I wish I was little bit taller

I wish I was a baller

I wish I had a girl who looked good, I would call her

I wish I had a rabbit in a hat with a bat, And a six four Impala

I wish I was like, six foot nine

So I can get with Leoshi

She don't know me

but yo she's really fine...

You know I see her all the time everywhere I go

but even in my dreams I can scheme my way to make her mine...

This is not Reddit.

You made my day with that Skeelo reference!

spinnin

Along with "npm install ..."

The grave isn't big enough.

It would be unusual to see an epitaph containing any personal thoughts, because most such messages are written by surviving family members, not the deceased.

Things you will read on a gravestone:

“I wish I never got married”

“I wish my wife would’ve left sooner”

Because I’ve seen “I wish I had worked less.” on a gravestone?

Yeah, there's typically little or nothing. No meaningful sentiments from the deceased. That's part of what the popular funeral poem "The Dash" plays on—everything that mattered in a life, by the time it's nothing but marks on a stone, is expressed in the distinctly inexpressive dash between the birth and death dates. It's rare to actually put anything about the life on there. "Loving father" or something is usually the most you get, if that. Sometimes poets or writers will compose a stanza for theirs, but those are exceptional.

There was a famous Swedish author called Fritiof Nilsson Piraten, whose grave lacks any name but instead had the inscription (translated):

"Here below are the ashes of a man who had the habit of putting everything off until tomorrow. But in his last days he improved, and did actually die on January 31, 1972."

There are some which are exceptional.

One in Tombstone, AZ (probably the only place people read these) says "We killed him by mistake. Too bad."

There may really be a grave with the poem: "Here lies the body of Richard Weigh, who died defending his right of way. He was right, dead right, as he sped along. And he's just as dead as if he was wrong"

Maybe that’s because the life that died is not under that stone. What’s under that stone isn’t even the husk of that life.

It's an expression. It means what people say at the end of their life.

There's a great song by Titãs, Epitáfio, which imagines a gravestone with all these thoughts, "I wish I had watched more sunsets, I wish I had cared less..."

You might have the first one, but they won't describe it as work. They might say "taken risks" "followed my dream" etc.

Thanks, we are.

But I highly doubt there are many people who can prevent their internal mental state from affecting their relationships.

I was not able to see her point of view when I felt like a loser. Once I decided that I will get a new job, we were better able to communicate and figure out our next steps.

> "Relationships are far more important than jobs, money or houses."

In the movies, maybe: "As long as we're together, nothing else matters".

In reality, relationship success often depends on certain fundamental things being in order. Like financial security and comfortable living arrangements.

Relationships are like a muscle. They grow with stress, but not with prolonged stress.

It's not just a direct relationship though. Consider your relationship with your spouse's family, friends, community, spiritual stuff. These are usually easiest to strengthen during good periods.

May be this works for American culture. In India over 95% are arranged marriages. The probability of finding a partner with common interests is pretty low. Not marrying is not an option. Because it affects siblings marriages. Women have even lesser freedom in this area. Given these conditions the best thing to do is not forget the relations ship b/w spouse will never be great and at the same time its not the spouse's fault. Minimal commitment to the happiness of the spouse is a must but never forget it will not be great.

Long live the culture of individual freedom the west values most.

I second the recommendation of the help of a therapist if possible. You can certainly "work on yourself" but having the guidance of a professional can really accelerate things. It's also helpful to talk to someone who 1) is always in your corner and is your advocate and non-judgemental 2) is an expert in emotions, coping, relationships, and so on and 3) is not someone you already have a previous, possibly "tainted" relationship with. Good luck.

> Might be worth taking advantage of this good period to do some relationship strengthening exercises while you can so that when the next downturn happens, you can both understand each other's and your own feelings better.

Not too long ago, my wife and I got the suggestion to schedule a weekly "open-faced hour". It has worked wonders for understanding each other, which has positive effects on every aspect of our relationship.

Well said! Unless the personal life is happy (stable dependable lovable relationship like spouse/significant other), it's hard to succeed in professional life.

Just to provide a contrarian viewpoint, myself and some of my closest friends are experiencing the exact opposite.

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