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Comment by short_sells_poo | Hacker News Reader

Modern Ferraris are amazing driver's cars. To this day, the single best driving experience I've ever had was in a 458 Speciale. There are better engineered cars, there are faster cars, there are more comfortable cars, but this to me is the embodiment of what a car can do. It is just an amazing feeling to drive it. It's like using a precision instrument that somehow immediately becomes an extension of your body. It's really uncanny.

None of the Lamborghini's I was fortunate enough to drive came close to this.

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"It's not the best engineered, it's not the fastest, it's not he most comfortable, but..."

Perfectly summed up Ferraris: gorgeous, nice-sounding marketing fluff.

It's not marketing. Design matters.

Germans have many qualities but design is just not one of them. They just can't do it and especially Porsche they are still running with the elongated Beetle design from the 1940s. Over at Porsche they are making the same car over and over again ever since the 1940s Beetle.

Once you remove the Porsche brand what do the Germans have left which can compete with Ferrari? Audi R8?

Have you seen the new Daytona FP3? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bA66mWhznVs

Porsche doesn't even dream about making something like that.

In a sense it's true that the supercar battle is Ferrari vs. Lamborghini. They are the only game in town because design matters. The former is timeless and elegant and the latter aggressive and bold...but they are both aestetically pleasing and merit being in an art museum.

Porsche doesn't dream of making something like the FP3 because their 'elongated beetle design' is still curb stomping almost every other competitor into the ground. McLaren is essentially their only real competition, if we aren't counting multimillion dollar vehicles like a Rimac or Bugatti. Porsche still holds the Nurburgring lap time title with their GT2 RS; and their GT3 and GT3 RS (multiple generations) as well as the ol' 918 Spyder are still among the top times posted. As far as I'm aware there's not a single ferrari that's cracked 7:00 on the lap.

FWIW, I think the GT3 RS is probably the pinnacle of functional design (among commonly-known models). It's aggressively winged, but the original design is literally decades old. Timeless and elegant. I'd take the Porsche 10000 times out of 10 over a Ferrari.

Edit: You are also aware that the V10 in the Audi R8 is the same engine that powers Lamborghini's, right? Like almost all engines (e.g. The small block LS, the ford 5.0, the subaru 2L boxer), it's an older design that's been updated as needed.

> Porsche still holds the Nurburgring lap time title with their GT2 RS; and their GT3 and GT3 RS (multiple generations)

When you look at car magazine lap times the Porsche is like 1 second faster than an equivalent Ferrari.

Porsche Gt2RS in 6.58,28 : https://youtu.be/sl0HtR6MaXs

Ferrari 488 Pista in 7.00,03: https://youtu.be/nblOLdCUzA0

Over a 10 miles long track . They are essentially the same lap time, and why it wouldn't be? This ain't string theory. 2 cars with approximately the same power:weight ratio are going to perform the same.

This is normal, what is not normal is that once you have done your lap you have to hop out and actually look at the Porsche elongated Beetle design and wonder why Porsche hasn't found any new design language ever since 1940...whereas when you pop out of the Ferrari 488 and look at it a non-zero part of your brain wants to make out with it. Same goes for a Lamborghini, regadless of the engine being the same of an R8 and also the power:weight ratio for that matter.

Design matters. GM understood that and they blew it out of the park with the new Corvette C8, they understood they needed something new as opposed to making the same car over and over again

A Porsche 911 looks far better to me than any of the cars you've listed. It's timeless.

Edit: To be honest the only ferrari design I like is the F40.

The lap was 6:43. Not 6:58. Might wanna do some research there.

Also, the new C8 looks like crap with those massive side pods and enormous trunk/rear. It's been panned widely for that. Front looks okay, though.

Your argument is frankly stupid because the 911 in higher trims is consistently an extremely sought after vehicle, year after year. It's good looking, and it's not broken, and they won't 'fix' it. There's nothing to fix. Stop with your inane attempt to pass off 'neat', or debatably good looking bodywork, as what makes a supercar a supercar. It betrays your lack of knowledge.

> The lap was 6:43. Not 6:58

I don't trust Porsche, like I don't trust Ferrari or Lamborghini or Corvette. Carmakers cannot be trusted.

They can use custom specs and/or slick tires and you'd not be the wiser.

On the other hand I trust a publication such as Sport-Auto.de which uses a regular car, Michelin tires and the same driver for each and every tests. The only variable is the car and the Nordshleife as well as wind/track temperature. Plus they record the attempt as you can see.

When Sport-Auto.de driver made the lap times it was 6.58.22 vs. 7.00.03

Again. Not string theory. The Pista and the Gt2RS have basically the same weight:power ratio

If Ferrari sent their team to Germany doing all sorts of magic to optimize Nordshleife laptimes they'd come up with a 6:44 too.

If anything it's Porsche using marketing gimmicks to sell more cars, not Ferrari. Lamborghini is guilty of this too. Every manufacturer which sends its team and driver to Nordshleife, Hockenheim, Silverstone etc. is using it as a marketing gimmick.

Such cars are expensive BUT not that expensive that publications won't get their hands on them, just let the publications do the lap timing.

> Lack of knowledge

Clarkson said it best: "Porsches are for guys who only have sex in the missionary position, if they manage to get any pus*y at all"

I think there can be one argument that apply to many German brands: they perfect and produce their “Model 100” little too much and too many for a brand to diverge later. A driving 944 sells for sometimes as low as $5k, literal wreck of a 911 goes twice that.

There’s something visceral about being in one. It’s like a living animal that just wants to go-go-go.

Who cares if it’s slower around a track, unless you’re actually going around a track for some reason.

Nah, it’s a real thing. You know how some NBA player can be top 10 (but not #1) in scoring, assists, rebounds, and steals? Good chance he’ll win the MVP.

Character forgives nearly any flaw in a car. Sometimes it isn't about going fast, it's about feeling involved and necessary to the process of driving.

I'm not personally a ferrari fan, but I can understand the appeal. you can buy cars for $50k that are already much too fast to fully enjoy on public roads, and realistically, $250k+ cars are going to spend most of their lives in garages. I suppose they might as well look good while they're doing it?

I’ve driven multiple Ferraris and Lamborghini on various tracks for many hours. I agree that Ferraris are better on the track in general: historically they’ve been lighter and RWD vs AWD. You’re still more likely to see them during track days than Lambos and Ferrari as a company does more racing. The track-oriented models like 458 Speciale (I haven’t driven it) are usually even more visceral because of a louder exhaust note, harder suspension, being lighter and lower, racing seats, etc.

Ferrari got rid of the gearshift :-(

I like driving manual as much as the next person (and have been for 25 years), but I full well acknowledge that I'd be way out of my depth driving any modern Ferrari.

And let's be honest: if you're worried about lap times, the flappy paddle gearbox is faster. It will never replace the joy of rowing your own gears or nailing a downshift, but it's almost certainly a win in terms of reliability under real world drivers and pace under all drivers.

The flappy paddle is cheating and boring.

You gotta master the heal-toe brake double-clutch downshift going into a turn, or you're not a real driver.

I'm not saying it's not, but I stand by my claim (completely unsupported by evidence, I'll admit) that somewhere between 4 and 6 nines of drivers are completely outclassed and lack the experience to drive a 500hp+ car competently, nevermind get the most out of it on a track, with a manual.

I owned an '86 Subaru BRAT with an EJ22 swap and a cranky transmission (heel-toe and double clutching required down into 1 and 2), and truly nailing a smooth 3-2 downshift with the transmission shifting sweetly into 2 was an occasion to be celebrated. I am 100% confident that I'd nail it less than 1/10th as often in any modern supercar with a manual.

I've also driven an E36 M3 (US spec) and a 458. I know I lack the training and experience to stay ahead of either of them on the limit. I suspect most other people do too.

My car is much more powerful than my expertise. I have a lot of fun with it, but I'm careful to stay within my skill level. The machinist who built my engine said he wouldn't have done it if I was under 40.

I enjoy practicing double-clutching heel-toeing downshifting. Paddle shifters, phooey.

Every F1 pilot on the planet just might disagree that they aren’t real drivers.

Technology has moved on.

> Technology has moved on.

A number of technologies have been banned from F1 because they were too good. (Other sports, too, like aluminum bats in major league baseball.)

When an AI bot is driving the car, are you still going to watch F1?

> Technology has moved on.

Well, how far do you want to take that argument? One could argue the last time high performance piston engine engineering actually mattered was in the aero engines of the 1940'ies. Then you had the might of nation states pouring resources (directly, or indirectly through buying lots of them) into making the absolutely highest performing (in terms of power/weight) engines. With some consideration to reliability, of course, and relatively little consideration to cost. Producing masterpieces like the mighty R-2800.

After that the serious development money went into turbines. Sure, piston engine development didn't stop, but the development going into "performance at any cost" was a pittance compared to other priorities.

Agreed 100%. I learned to drive manual, but I'd never go back to it :)

There's not a chance in hell I could ever learn to switch as fast as a flappy paddle in a modern supercar.

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