Behind the Ferrari and Lamborghini rivalry
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His #1 focus was building cars that won races. He was clear about that. And people bought his car because they won races. Lamborghini made amazing cars... that did not win many races.
There are not many accounts of Enzo being a likeable person, or a great engineer, or even a particularly good business man. But it wasn't a "mistake" how he treated Ferruccio's ideas.
So, maybe the moral of the story is listen to your customers. But it could also be: don't compromise and you'll still do fine, and they will go out and make what they want.
Granted, as an aside, my understanding is the 250 GTO line of models were meant as an afterthought to fund the racing side of things, but to my eye, they are the most beautiful Ferrari models. The supercar/racing inspired models often look ugly to me.
The roadgoing 250 GT series was produced at the tail end of the "coachbuilt" era of automobiles, where the manufacturer sent the bare chassis and engine to a artisan shop specialized in the design and construction of the body. So you're correct that, from Ferrari's perspective, the design of these roadgoing models was secondary to the racing models. However, because it was not Ferrari's primary concern, it could be contracted out to coachbuilders such as Pininfarina. These firms were highly sophisticated designers and artisans and indeed produced some very beautiful work.
One of the most beautiful cars of all time. Ironic that it was produced under the budget Dino marque; it is far prettier than anything contemporaneous that was badged as a Ferrari.
And, today, fetching a boatload of money. They are very (very) high maintenance, and fragile, compared to many other Ferraris of that era.
In about 1985, I dated a woman who had one in her garage buried under a pile of clothing and fabric. I about fell over when I discovered it.
"Oh. THAT. I got it in the divorce."
I’ve worked on them, and they’re certainly not more fragile than say a 365BB. But show me any Ferrari from that era and I’ll show you a basket case.
But the 246 is tiny inside and annoying to drive for somebody six feet tall like me. I’m also the only one, it seems, who doesn’t think they’re as pretty as everyone makes out. I think the latter 308GTB is the best looking of that line. Even of the Dinos, I like the Fiat Dino spider better.
But I realize and accept that the whole world thinks I’m wrong on this.
Perhaps "fragile" was the wrong word. Although I never owned one, I have had a few friends who have and they have all said something along the lines of, "the car is not a daily driver." They all owned at least two, and in one case, more than 10 vintage Ferraris.
Eventually we decided on a house that doesn't have a garage.
I just find it fascinating that this one man was such an arrogant jerk that built such a compelling brand that he inspired an entirely new company and all time great racing program just to get revenge against him.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oH0R4MDDgns
(Ford also took first in '68 and '69.)
The 2016 documentary The 24-Hour War is pretty good watching too:
But you've also got engineers, such as Edison, artists, such as Poe, inventors, such as Tesla (ha! take that Edison), and many many others.
I think it fits here.
In any case, amazing that in 2022 there are still new articles being written about these events and still interest in hearing it. Story telling is essential in building a brand that captures public interest - those who aim to mass market their product, take notes.
In the dialect of the place, not in Italian (I'm Italian.) I learned the origin of the name a few years ago. I always thought it was an English word or something and always mispronounced it.
https://www.lamborghini.com/it-en/news/marcello-gandini-racc...
it was just a (most probably very local) common interjection/expletive by a mechanic (from Piedmont) that was chosen half way between a joke and because it sounded not-so-bad in English as well.
The literal meaning is "peste o contagio" (pox or contagion or disease) but it is actually used essentially in what would be "perbacco" o "accidenti" (which I believe would be in English "by jove!" or "damn!").
? Tuscan was the written standard for Italian since Petrarch and the Piedmontese conquest of Southern Italy was done by 1871. Admittedly colonization took a long time but it’s a very long time since anything but Tuscan has been used in official or prestige circumstances in Italian.
> official or prestige circumstances in Italian
Lamborghini differentiated itself from Ferrari in large part by being brash and in your face. Given what countach means I think it's pretty safe to say that they were not trying to come up with a prestigious name.
In some regions (both in the north and in the south) many people are - still today - functionally bilingual, i.e. they still use largely dialect (and that is their "native" language) and switch automatically to Italian when dealing with (say) authority/government officers/foreigners or when they travel outside their region.
But I believe that at the moment the majority of people from these regions are in the "reverse" mode, i.e. they normally speak Italian but switch to the dialect in case of need or with older relatives/known friends.
This is what men do when they are insulted and told they can't do something.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HHckZCxdRkA
Or they continue becoming even more Tucker Carlson than they already were. (side note, supposedly Stewart was super super hungry in this)
There is an alternative history in my head where Stewart moves into Graham's or McConnell's Congressional District and runs against them, on the success of his 9/11 lobbying.
Definitely got a chuckle from this, wonderfully stated. Not sure I'd heard that expression before.
It's always more complicated than that, of course. Lamborghini built some legendary cars and established a respected global brand. But I'd be surprised if il Commendatore ever gave a hoot about them. And the company itself could teach Trump a thing or two about bankruptcy.
The story was quite embellished in time. Stanzani had a different, simpler recollection.
Besides, I'm Italian, born in the eighties. I may not have lived the seventies so I cannot comment about back then, but in my time there never was a perceived rivalry between the two brand.
They sit in completely separated market segments, with quite orthogonal mind shares.
The wonder for me is the meanings of the names of the different models. "Countach" apparently sounds like "wow" in Italian. "Diablo", ok. Gallardo is after a fighting bull. Aventador is after another fighting bull. Urus, after aurochs, really big bull predecessors. Murcielago is bat, but maybe that's bull bats.
In these days of automated responses I'd be happy with such answer, direct and honest from the CEO, instead of a request for ID and a delay of weeks to let me know they are reviewing the case.
You now have a product that will work for about 90% of existing JIRA users. Sell it in three versions: open-source no support, self-hosted with support-per-user, and hosted SaaS with support per team.
You have to be a "good customer" to be allowed to buy certain models. And, if you do something Modena doesn't like (e.g. put a wrap on a Ferrari), they will ban you from ever purchasing a new one from a dealer again.
Luxury watches can be similar, where people in various watch forums will proudly describe how they systematically sucked up to an authorized dealer, purchased this and that along with gifts to the salespeople, just to be privileged enough to pay for a specific, extremely high-margin, tchotchke. Not my thing, but more power to them.
Apparently, I have never had an original thought, :) including (just now) hunting for the particular Lambo poster I had:
https://retromash.com/2017/03/15/the-hunt-for-this-amazing-l...
Though obviously these were different and I guess leaner times, the Chiron, much less of a loss leader (Veyrons supposedly cost VW $5 millions a piece, the retail price of the base model was $1 million) sold 200 units before the first one made it to a client, and the 500th (and last) unit was confirmed sold in January 2022, just under 6 years after the original announcement.
"What means far more to me than anything else is: our good name! Our reputation represents desire for perfection of the highest quality. I gamble that reputation gladly, because I have absolute faith in every car that leaves this factory. But I will not risk it on a driver in whom I cannot have an equal faith. There are fewer than thirty men in the world qualified to drive Formula One; a mere half-dozen, perhaps, to win. At this moment, I am inclined to think you are not one of them."
Ferrari was the shiznit for me after I saw that movie.
You can choose to work together, or not.
Ferrari has always been beautiful and performance driven.
Lamborghini has been design driven. Performance is there, but with more conditions.
If you want iconic, you'll have more choices with Lamboroghini. If you want elegant and mechanically elegant, you _usually_ want Ferrari.
Then there are specific models...
Ferrari 250, in its various forms is a Mona Lisa to the viewers who appreciate it. Then there was the Testarossa, and then the F40. After that, the designs were also great, but they weren't so special at the right time.
For Lambo, you have the Miura, Countach (probably the most recognizable supercar design of all time), and the Diablo.
For the car enthusiast, it's rarely a direct comparison. At times one has the mechanical advantage, and at other times is a design appeal.
It really just depends on the era and the specific models you're comparing.
Also the founders' original philosophies have long been diluted and that's not necessarily a bad thing for customers.
You know what you will never see? A Ferrari performance-tested against another car by a TV program or newspaper or magazine publisher. They prohibit journalists from doing head-to-head comparison testing against other brands because they didn't perform that well compared to, well, everything else.
Top Gear finally got so sick of their bullshit that they very famously went public, describing all the things Ferrari would do when they delivered a car for review. This including spending days testing the car around the Top Gear test track themselves, pouring over data, adjusting everything on the car specifically for their test track. Something no other car company did, and something they would never do for an owner of a street car. I believe they also put on special, non-stock tires, but I could be wrong.
They did it because Top Gear was the one outlet they couldn't say no to such a test. So they cheated. The one time Ferrari was forced to actually submit to a performance test, they cheated.
The result? Ferrari not only stopped providing Top Gear with cars, they forbade customers from loaning or renting a car to Top Gear for test or review. Anyone found to have provided a vehicle to Top Gear would lose the right to purchase a new Ferrari for life.
Ferrari also banned Chris Harris, another famous British motoring journalist, after he also revealed that Ferrari were equipping and tuning their press cars differently than customer cars.
Ferrari also refuses to test or publish lap times at the Nurburgring:
https://www.thedrive.com/news/8147/ferrari-reminds-us-it-doe...
Yes, 'ring times can be a bit silly, but like racing, they're a statement of what the manufacturer is capable of. Ferrari refuses to play games, and oh hey, what do you know: the fastest ferrari timed around the course is slower than a whole slew of Porsches: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_N%C3%BCrburgring_Nords...
I fell in love with Lamborghinis when I was young (late Countach/early Diablo era) so I've always preferred their style, but now with their extended period of German ownership they are quite credible performance cars as well (Audi Le Mans/GT influence, perhaps?).
I've driven quite a few Porsches and Ferraris, from 1970's models through modern ones and I'll almost always agree the Porsche is the better car. Usually faster, drives better, handles better, easier to work on, and easier to get parts for. But... it's usually the Ferrari that I want to take home. I've owned and enjoyed a few different Porsches, but my favorite car I've ever owned was a '95 Ferrari F355 Spider that would get its butt kicked by a Porsche 993 Turbo of the same era.
These days, automotive engineering is the art and science of using math to cope with regulation. Nobody does it like the Germans... legally or otherwise.
How does it work in practice? Is that legal in every country they operate? What prevents someone paying a middle man to buy a Ferrari then sell it to them?
Money isn't enough if you want to purchase something like the new SF90 Stradale brand new, you essentially need to be offered the opportunity to buy one by Ferrari Corporate. Oh and you gain that by buying quite a number of used Ferraris and less desirable new Ferraris via your dealership until someone "notices" your "love of the brand".
If this sounds like gatekeepy bullshit, it is.
If a long-term owner told you that, by all means consider it; if a non-owner (including a mechanic) tells you second/third-hand horror stories, I’d be pretty inclined to ignore them.
Like so many things these reputations form for good reasons - you may get lucky and have no particular problems with an individual example but that doesn't mean the reputation isn't deserved.
As (by now historical) anecdata I owned an Alfetta (2000, gasoline, "America") for several years (used 50% with my father) we made 250,000 km with the original engine, then we put an used (from a wreckage) one with alredy 66,000 km and drove it for another 100,000 km or so when we had an issue with the gearbox/transmission and the car was overall too old to be worth the repair, but the body was in very good condition (car was around 15 years old).
Later I drove for a few years a 75 (bought used with already 90,000 km, "italian") and while I had no particular issues (engine and mechanics in general) up to the 150,000/200,000 km, the body had lots of issues with rust/corrosion after 6-7 years.
I would not call any of them "unreliable", they needed some little maintenance, but I would say no more than other make/models of those years (those were the '80's and early '90's).
Later Alfa Romeo became essentially "FIAT with another name" and reliability was essentially the same as the FIATs (rather poor, but not as bad as they are sometimes depicted).
Not to say the cars are perfect, but most owners end up with relatively hassle-free ownership experiences these days.
None of the Lamborghini's I was fortunate enough to drive came close to this.
Perfectly summed up Ferraris: gorgeous, nice-sounding marketing fluff.
Who cares if it’s slower around a track, unless you’re actually going around a track for some reason.
Germans have many qualities but design is just not one of them. They just can't do it and especially Porsche they are still running with the elongated Beetle design from the 1940s. Over at Porsche they are making the same car over and over again ever since the 1940s Beetle.
Once you remove the Porsche brand what do the Germans have left which can compete with Ferrari? Audi R8?
Have you seen the new Daytona FP3? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bA66mWhznVs
Porsche doesn't even dream about making something like that.
In a sense it's true that the supercar battle is Ferrari vs. Lamborghini. They are the only game in town because design matters. The former is timeless and elegant and the latter aggressive and bold...but they are both aestetically pleasing and merit being in an art museum.
FWIW, I think the GT3 RS is probably the pinnacle of functional design (among commonly-known models). It's aggressively winged, but the original design is literally decades old. Timeless and elegant. I'd take the Porsche 10000 times out of 10 over a Ferrari.
Edit: You are also aware that the V10 in the Audi R8 is the same engine that powers Lamborghini's, right? Like almost all engines (e.g. The small block LS, the ford 5.0, the subaru 2L boxer), it's an older design that's been updated as needed.
When you look at car magazine lap times the Porsche is like 1 second faster than an equivalent Ferrari.
Porsche Gt2RS in 6.58,28 : https://youtu.be/sl0HtR6MaXs
Ferrari 488 Pista in 7.00,03: https://youtu.be/nblOLdCUzA0
Over a 10 miles long track . They are essentially the same lap time, and why it wouldn't be? This ain't string theory. 2 cars with approximately the same power:weight ratio are going to perform the same.
This is normal, what is not normal is that once you have done your lap you have to hop out and actually look at the Porsche elongated Beetle design and wonder why Porsche hasn't found any new design language ever since 1940...whereas when you pop out of the Ferrari 488 and look at it a non-zero part of your brain wants to make out with it. Same goes for a Lamborghini, regadless of the engine being the same of an R8 and also the power:weight ratio for that matter.
Design matters. GM understood that and they blew it out of the park with the new Corvette C8, they understood they needed something new as opposed to making the same car over and over again
Also, the new C8 looks like crap with those massive side pods and enormous trunk/rear. It's been panned widely for that. Front looks okay, though.
Your argument is frankly stupid because the 911 in higher trims is consistently an extremely sought after vehicle, year after year. It's good looking, and it's not broken, and they won't 'fix' it. There's nothing to fix. Stop with your inane attempt to pass off 'neat', or debatably good looking bodywork, as what makes a supercar a supercar. It betrays your lack of knowledge.
I don't trust Porsche, like I don't trust Ferrari or Lamborghini or Corvette. Carmakers cannot be trusted.
They can use custom specs and/or slick tires and you'd not be the wiser.
On the other hand I trust a publication such as Sport-Auto.de which uses a regular car, Michelin tires and the same driver for each and every tests. The only variable is the car and the Nordshleife as well as wind/track temperature. Plus they record the attempt as you can see.
When Sport-Auto.de driver made the lap times it was 6.58.22 vs. 7.00.03
Again. Not string theory. The Pista and the Gt2RS have basically the same weight:power ratio
If Ferrari sent their team to Germany doing all sorts of magic to optimize Nordshleife laptimes they'd come up with a 6:44 too.
If anything it's Porsche using marketing gimmicks to sell more cars, not Ferrari. Lamborghini is guilty of this too. Every manufacturer which sends its team and driver to Nordshleife, Hockenheim, Silverstone etc. is using it as a marketing gimmick.
Such cars are expensive BUT not that expensive that publications won't get their hands on them, just let the publications do the lap timing.
> Lack of knowledge
Clarkson said it best: "Porsches are for guys who only have sex in the missionary position, if they manage to get any pus*y at all"
Edit: To be honest the only ferrari design I like is the F40.
And let's be honest: if you're worried about lap times, the flappy paddle gearbox is faster. It will never replace the joy of rowing your own gears or nailing a downshift, but it's almost certainly a win in terms of reliability under real world drivers and pace under all drivers.
There's not a chance in hell I could ever learn to switch as fast as a flappy paddle in a modern supercar.
You gotta master the heal-toe brake double-clutch downshift going into a turn, or you're not a real driver.
I owned an '86 Subaru BRAT with an EJ22 swap and a cranky transmission (heel-toe and double clutching required down into 1 and 2), and truly nailing a smooth 3-2 downshift with the transmission shifting sweetly into 2 was an occasion to be celebrated. I am 100% confident that I'd nail it less than 1/10th as often in any modern supercar with a manual.
I've also driven an E36 M3 (US spec) and a 458. I know I lack the training and experience to stay ahead of either of them on the limit. I suspect most other people do too.
I enjoy practicing double-clutching heel-toeing downshifting. Paddle shifters, phooey.
Technology has moved on.
A number of technologies have been banned from F1 because they were too good. (Other sports, too, like aluminum bats in major league baseball.)
When an AI bot is driving the car, are you still going to watch F1?
Well, how far do you want to take that argument? One could argue the last time high performance piston engine engineering actually mattered was in the aero engines of the 1940'ies. Then you had the might of nation states pouring resources (directly, or indirectly through buying lots of them) into making the absolutely highest performing (in terms of power/weight) engines. With some consideration to reliability, of course, and relatively little consideration to cost. Producing masterpieces like the mighty R-2800.
After that the serious development money went into turbines. Sure, piston engine development didn't stop, but the development going into "performance at any cost" was a pittance compared to other priorities.
From the present-day, it's easy to see why Lamborghini and Ferrari are "paired." Both are merchandising and branding behemoths, both produce thoroughly modern, refined sports cars that are often cross-shopped against each other. However, in the 1960s and 1970s these companies were definitely not two sides of the same coin, being run by idiosyncratic personalities with differing priorities. While the Miura and Countach are best remembered today, Lamborghini struggled tremendously to break in to the luxury GT market with the 350 GT, 400 GT, Islero, Jarama and Espada. They also tried and failed to compete with the Porsche 911 using the Urraco. Economic and manufacturing issues prevented Lamborghini from achieving lasting profitability in these markets. Thus, as described in the article, Lamborghini struggled through the 70s and 80s. In contrast, Ferrari was continually buoyed by positive publicity from racing and weathered the oil crisis using funding provided by Fiat.
One part of the story that is glossed over by the article is the engineering team behind the early Lamborghini cars. The legendary popularity of the Miura and Countach and their crucial role in the Lamborghini story overshadow the fact that Ferruccio was not initially supportive of these cars, or of the idea of building racing-inspired high performance sports cars at all. In particular, the Miura was an "after-hours" project of three talented engineers: Gian Paolo Dallara, Paolo Stanzani and Bob Wallace. These three all had keen interest in racing cars and developed the Miura chassis without official support. After the completed chassis was shown at the 1966 Geneva Auto Show, favorable public response led Ferruccio to approve a production version. The success of the Miura allowed the small Lamborghini engineering team and body designer Gandini to have creative freedom in designing the Countach. However, if the company stayed true to Ferruccio's original goals and these engineers were not allowed to "play", these remarkable models would not exist at all.
The article's states that ATS designed and built early Lamborghinis. This is historically inaccurate. The only ATS member that had a significant relationship with Lamborghini was Giotto Bizzarrini, who designed the V12 engine used in the 350 GT and subsequently refined and updated for use in many other Lamborghini models. Bizzarrini's association with Lamborghini was very brief, most likely only consisting of providing the engine design as a deliverable. The four person team of Bizzarrini, Dallara, Stanzani, and Wallace were responsible for the engineering of the early Lamborghini cars, not ATS.
There's also an interesting story here behind the article's brief mention of the 1961 walkout/"palace revolt" where some of the leading technical talent left Ferrari and formed ATS. While this was a blow in the short term, Ferrari very quickly filled the void with a young engineer named Mauro Forghieri who became one of the most successful technical directors in the company's history. Enzo's willingness to bring in new, young talent when existing employees (and drivers!) proved unsatisfactory is a major theme in the company's history. Arguably, this tendency contributed to the company and team's ability to stay solvent and successful for so long under Enzo's management.
> Ferruccio Lamborghini was primarily interested in building comfortable, quick and stylish GT cars
My #1 book recommendation would be Luca Dal Monte's excellent recent biography on Enzo Ferrari. In a field dominated by shallow coffee table books and breathless romanticism, it's a comprehensive, scholarly history that remains very readable. Not much material on Lamborghini, though. Unfortunately like many auto books it is now out of print and prices are in "collector" territory. Still worth picking up if you can.
One of my favorite posters growing up was a white Countach, about five feet long by maybe two feet high. I had a much smaller print of a Ferrari F40. The appeal for a kid like me, of course, being that each had some claim to the fastest production car at some point.
It's kind of amazing to me that over sixteen years only about 2,000 were made. By comparison, there were about 9,000 DeLoreans in three years.
I'll start:
Iann Barron (Elliot, CTL, Inmos) had a white Countach as his daily driver. It was famously unreliable: supposedly the oil pan separated from the engine once while moving, and famously fast on the M4.