EU reaches deal to make USB-C a common charger for most electronic devices
engadget.com
engadget.com
Other people saying "what about innovation!?" That's fine. Let's say the USB consortium releases USB-D with input from Apple, Google, and many other stakeholders. The EU can set another deadline for newly released devices to adhere to the new version instead of the old one. The transition will involve a period of time where older devices are still on C and newer ones on D, which is totally compatible with the regulation and is necessary with or without regulation. It's ludicrous to think companies won't be able to "iterate": you would be crazy to go to market with any cable technology that isn't already very mature. Apple spent years designing lighting chargers because they knew that once they were released they'd be around for a long time (and they have been!)
If you have to make such an argument, you've already lost.
Innovation, particularly disruptive and / or breakthrough innovation, does not happen by committee, no matter how many times over history people tried deluding themselves into thinking that it does.
So no, it's not fine.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DVD#History
Never make an absolutist statement. They're always wrong. :-)
Lol. An interesting version of the liars paradox.
Maybe we could put all that innovation and consumer inconvenience into resolving climate change.
On the other hand if you compare USB 1.0 to 1.1 it is quite obvious that real implementation experience and throwing out artifacts of the design by committee was quite important for the success.
This sounds like it has some interesting history there; do you have any recommended sources to read about the transition between USB 1.0 and 1.1?
Especially since I know that several people at Digital Equipment Corporation had to do the signal integrity analysis for Intel for the original USB standard.
This is actually fairly common in Apple-land, now that I look:
- ADB (1986) to PS2 (1987) to USB-A (1996) for HID
- Firewire (1995) to USB 2.0 (2000) to Firewire 800 (2002) to USB 3.0 (2008) for data transfer
- VGA (1987) to ADC (1998) to DVI (1999) for video
A lot of the connectors they proposed are now lost to the mists of time, but I can at least understand the argument that some of these changes were plausibly driven by Apple's rejection of the then-standard in favor of some new benefit (faster speeds, better UX), which lasted only until a new standard was developed to incorporate that benefit, and the process repeats again.
it's actually worse than that, there was extensive discussion of what to do next since micro-B was still obviously flawed, they just couldn't reach a consensus to take any action even after years of debate.
the thing to remember is that USB-IF isn't a benevolent organization of technology companies working together to set a direction for the future - many of them are primarily interested in reducing their own costs, which is why we got the "USB 3.x Gen 2x2 Wave 2: USB Harder" crap. Many of the players at USB-IF are specifically interested in stalling progress as long as it saves them 30 cents on their BOM.
It's weird; cable orientation was (and still is) a big problem with USB-A, but not because having to deal with orientation is a problem that needs to be solved. Orientation is not a problem, at all, with USB-B, mini-B, or micro-B. The own goal in USB-A was delivering a connnector that is sensitive to orientation at the same time that it's visually symmetrical. There was no need to make the connector insensitive to orientation. It would have made at least as much sense to make the asymmetry visible, the way every other connector does.
We are talking about power cables here. Are you anticipating something major in this space? Is it reasonable to do so?
The big innovation I'd love to have? Having only ONE charger for all my devices, forever. That absolutely destroys any "innovation" Apple or whoever can bring to the table.
(and don't tell me everybody uses Amazon Prime day shipping... people just order new cables when they break. And sure, you can have one common pool of all your cables... sort of! except for the part where cable X or charger X doesn't fast-charge device Y, so you actually need several pools of chargers and cables...)
Failures due to "user error" are still failures that induce cable replacement, and a cable that you interact with less (because it's running to a fixed wireless charger stand/pad) is less likely to have user error failure modes like that. Wireless connection or wireless charging (built into the car, f.ex) removes these modes entirely - you can't break an aux cable that doesn't exist.
You can't just assume "nobody ever breaks a cable" as being a realistic proposition when looking at the lifecycle of these products - I'm not sure I believe you in the first place that you've never broken a cable in 12 years but that's certainly not realistic for the population as a whole.
If you have to make such an argument... Good luck with that. This one in particular has many existing counterexamples, including USB-C itself.
Also missing from this discussion is the fact that even if the law is only about charging it will define he go-to data-connection for smaller devices for a long time, where an additional port will be dimensionally challenging, more costly to add as well as difficult to make water-resistant.
I am sympathetic for reducing e-waste, but I'm unsure where this will lead us. Crypto-mining is also bad for the environment but might hold unknown positive possibilities if explored properly (maybe reduce bureaucracy, avoid monopolies) that could be extinguished by a premature ban.
I am already paying some of the highest taxes on consumer products compared to other countries in the world, I would rather pay even more for a charger, phone etc., remember an adapter when out and about and keep the freedom of choosing which technologies to support.
*Also just wanted to add that even if OP mentioned the committee, I'm unsure how much you can compare that to EU making laws enforceable in 27 countries.
No, I have no problem with the USB-C mandate. But the analogy seems weird.
I support the idea that regulatory bodies like the EU create stronger software standards in safety critical applications in particular so that software 'engineering' actually starts to deserve that label so I have no problem with a good faith version of that take.
Why does my next phone need a charger? I’d be happy with wireless charging — especially if I have a 3.5mm socket in the phone too.
In 2009, the Commission facilitated a voluntary memorandum of understanding (MoU), signed by major producers, that aimed to guarantee interoperability between chargers and mobile phones on the EU market. The MoU resulted in a significant reduction of available charger types and a convergence to USB Micro-B connectors on the device side: while there were more than 30 proprietary chargers on the EU market in 2009, by 2012 (a year after the MoU started to apply), nine in ten new devices supported the USB Micro-B connection.
(from https://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/etudes/BRIE/2021/6988...)
You have no evidence to back this up. There's been throughout history many innovative standards that have gone through committee work, including a ton of network protocols.
Innovation is first. Standardisation is second.
That way, more people can make use of and innovate further on the original idea.
The Internet won on the free market, through its own merits. No politician intervention necessary. Even if plenty tried to capture the glory (information superhighway…)
Would Raspberry Pi have happened without Linux?
What about the evolution of data centres?
I am sure that there are examples from closed systems, but it is not clear that keeping secrets and strict intellectual property spur innovation
It'd take a pretty strong argument to convince me that this is so much more productive and allows for more innovation than the old days when the spec for things like Email, HTTP, IRC, XMPP allowed for a plethora of different tools unrelated to the company sponsoring the tech and people figured out how to make money USING the interoperable tech instead of OWNING the tech.
The free matrix.org server is also overloaded. The paid server is much faster.
For example bridges break important features like end-to-end encryption.
Having 5 IM apps installed is much preferable to me than 1 worse app. Not sure the situation for XMPP but I have been told its highly fragmented with extensions that not all clients support. If I'm talking with someone, I want a high level of assurance that their client is pretty much the same as mine and that all features work and look roughly the same on both sides.
Internet standards do not innovate. People that adopt standards and built interesting things with them do.
For example, Google originally wrote the Jingle XMPP extension. Sadly, it seems like there are no real economic incentives for interoperabilty in the IM space (quite the opposite if you already have a lot of users on your platform), so we don't see a lot of investment going into the adoption of internet standards from big players anymore.
WhatsApp is basically an unfederated XMPP provider.
Why do you think WhatsApp reached a billion dollar evaluation? Not because users have the freedom to move to a different provider and still be able to talk to all their friends...
The only other possibility is that users start rejecting providers who do not comply with internet standards (and I don't see that happening, even here on Hacker News).
Instead maybe the government should start eating its own dog food and use an open standard for both internal and external use.
Sure it would take a few months of serious dedication for these chat vendors to write specifications for the protocol spaghetti they came up with, but the benefits would be tremendous.
So why is "nobody" using XMPP protocol? The problem is not exactly with the specifications (although there's still a little margin for interpretation here and there, they keep evolving for the better) but rather with the implementations. Since a protocol is not tied to a single implementation, it requires additional resources to develop user-friendly clients. This fact is used by an argument by some people (see also: m0xie's The Ecosystem is moving) to justify centralizing all communications and protocol development. This argument was amply debunked by Daniel Gultsche (who maintains an Android XMPP client) and Drew Devault (who maintains an (unfederated-so-far) forge):
https://gultsch.de/objection.html
https://drewdevault.com/2018/08/08/Signal.html
There's also a lot to say about the Matrix/Element approach, which has some good and bad sides. I'm happy to elaborate if that's of interest to someone.
Let's please go back to ntalk!
Of course it doesn't have to be mandated, and in the past usually wasn’t, but hell, it’s hard to see many good reasons to not standardize on USB-C. It’s got plenty of pins, it’s already mass-manufactured, and outside of only a single product Apple sells, there’s not much competition aside from legacy stuff that can’t handle a lot of today’s data, form factor and power delivery needs.
Most of it, including most of the history of computers.
Competition almost always breeds innovation. It's basic economics, and why people get upset by monopolies and such.
Different conditions beget different types of innovation. Interoperable systems evolved things (paradigms, models, languages…) that competing ones couldn't, and the opposite is also true. The world needs both, and probably everything in-between.
This same kind of madness, of course, totally already exists elsewhere. I’m sorry but, out of the hundreds of thousands of different power connectors, most of them aren’t even very well thought out to begin with, less “innovative.” It turns out that delivering power to a device isn’t that interesting, but that doesn’t mean you can’t get it horribly wrong. For every MagSafe that has at least some redeeming qualities, there’s about 500 DELL power bricks out there. And for something that is effectively delivering small amounts of low voltage DC power, in fact often one of about 2 or 3 different voltages, it’s sad that you have to scour the earth for chargers that match the pinout of your device.
But wait a minute. We’re not even talking about laptops, but essentially just mobile phones and cameras. So where’s the innovative competitor to USB-C that we’re all so worried about getting stomped on by the EU? Even Apple has adopted USB-C for almost everything except iPhone. micro USB hardly exists on new phones, even the budget phones are switching to USB-C.
The market doesn’t just automatically do the right thing. Apple is simply too powerful for market forces alone to compel them to use a “standard” charger, and actually, the friction of changing something that works probably makes it resistant against that, but just because that’s the case does not mean it is the right way to go for consumers or the world in general, in the long term. And once enough people are tired of that non-sense, they turn to regulation. And I’m sure regulation like this is annoying—what does the EU know about connectivity and mobile phone design—but it’s probably relieving to Apple, because it roughly solves the problem of having to reconcile it: they either do it, or they are in violation of the law. Problem solved!
And no innovation was harmed, because plugging phones in is not that interesting.
P.S.: Interoperability absolutely breeds innovation, and it does not mean no competition, it builds a framework for competition. Standards do obviously limit what you can do, but in exchange they open many doors that would otherwise be closed. Please tell me you don’t think the “innovation” from having 30 competing hypertext formats would’ve been the ideal path to “innovation” for the world wide web.
Were it not for standards and regulations you would have to buy different locks, lightbulbs, and charger adapters depending on the company which built your apartment. It's already annoying enough that these specifications change from one country to another, but it would be a complete nightmare if there were no interoperability regulations at all.
Also, more specifically about computing: the Internet being an open standard brought many advantages for innovation, compared to centralized networks such as MSN or AOL. As for hardware, i don't know about you but i'm pretty happy i can change my CPU/RAM/HDD with any socket-compatible product and i'm not tied to a single vendor... in fact i'm pretty angry when i find a machine where some parts are non-standard and cannot be easily replaced.
To be clear, i'm not saying there's no value in deviating from the standards for innovation. I'm just saying 99% of usecases are better addressed with standard solutions than with halfbaked proprietary "solutions".
Your statement might hold for software but definitely doesn’t hold for hardware.
Having used a few different models of MacBook over the last decade for work, and owning a few different models of Thinkpads over the same timeframe, I'd take the Thinkpad any day of the week. From the annoyingly either hot or cold all-metal case to the floating ground problem triggering shocks when using the fold-out wall connector, MacBooks are inferior in my book. But that is also only my opinion.
In all my years, I haven't had a single Lightning connector fail on me. The solid metal where the contacts reside is just too robust to wear out or get damaged (unless you somehow step on it the right way or let it corrode).
USB-C connectors, on the other hand, seems to loosen after a rather small number mates and de-mates, leading people to use preemptive workarounds such as magnetic connectors.
I had never had a single cord fray on me except every single Apple supplied white cord for years, until suddenly I no longer had that problem. Don't know what changed but glad it did
I'm on my second phone where the Lightning connector barely works anymore. 'Thankfully' this one support Qi so I can charge wireless, but if I want to do a wired backup or upgrade I have to jiggle the cable like mad to get any kind of connection.
YMMV.
https://www.tomsguide.com/how-to/how-to-clean-iphone-chargin...
I've successfully cleaned multiple USB-C ports using a toothpick.
So, yours is just as anecdotal as mine. Would actually have to see some numbers comparing Lightning vs USB-C failure rate (on some premium Android smartphones), which we are unlikely to.
The USB C jacks I have seen on PCBs so far seem all to look pretty solid to me, although I am convinced you can also get cheap ones that will just happily fail if you just tried. Getting cheap Lightning connectors will be a lot harder, for obvious reasons.
So if we do the comparison between Apple and something else, let's not fall into the old trap of comparing an 1000€ ios device to an 100€ android device and declaring android to be unusable.
In the same time, I've only had two usb-c cables fail on me, both third-party.
I did have three other usb-c cables destroyed by careless children breaking the usb-a side off at the charger (all three plugged into a knee-height automotive charger in the back seat area), but that's less of a failure of the cable and more a testament to that plucky Anker auto charger that's still going fine.
I don’t think anyone’s mentioned that. Oh my god, tech social media is going to melt down when that kicks in if the reaction to chargers being excluded is any indication (not to mention a repeat of the shift from 30-pin to Lightning in Apple’s case, except now without a cable).
Even better, just use the old cable from your old device since they won't be designing a new one every other year.
1. Apple 30pin "iPod" connector
2. Apple Lightning connector
3. Mini USB (I don't think this ever appeared on anything but blackberries and cheapo flip phones?)
4. Micro USB
5. USB-C
So, while I agree that cable changes are annoying, and I support standardization efforts, "a new one every other year" is just not how it's ever been. 5 connectors in 15 years. The 30pin connector reigned from 2007 to 2012, and on the android side, micro USB was dominant until around 2015-2016 when USB-C started showing up on phones. Realistically, it's been a new connector every ~7 years.
I got a pretty expensive HP monitor for work from my company that connects via USB-C (and can charge my Mac). IT has sworn me to not loose its USB-C cable because for some unknown reasons it refuses to work with other cables, it costs >$100 and is constantly out of stock.
Hence the price.
Yeah yeah, "640k should be enough for everybody". There comes a point where that is actually true.
Mandatory Tom Scott video about bri'ish power plugs: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UEfP1OKKz_Q
:-)
Hurt like a sod to stand on if the prongs are face up though!
Much of what he describes is e.g. a feature of Schuko plugs/sockets.
The main distinguishing feature of the UK design is a technical workaround for a problem that no longer exists (WWII copper shortage requiring the embedded fuse).
Can't the same safety features fit in a smaller package?
I like them because they're small. I have a nifty little 3-port USB-A/C power supply where the plug folds flush. Europlug would have trouble doing that, and it's outright impossible with Schuko and UK plugs.
and it's outright impossible with Schuko and UK plugs
You mean exactly like this folding UK adapter from Apple? :P
https://www.apple.com/uk/shop/product/MGMY3B/A/apple-5w-usb-...
Other folding UK plug brands are available. /bbc_announcer_voice
Wonderful! :D
If Apple ever wanted to support faster than 40 Gbps, they would have to do so in concert with the rest of the tech industry and release it as an open standard. I'd like to hear somebody try to argue this is a bad thing.
however, extremely few devices ship capable of these data rates, and many USB-C cables ship only supporting 480 mbps data transfer.
> ... Apple could possibly support such speeds without releasing a new backwards-incompatible cable, they would have done so long ago.
Lightning supports USB 3 (superspeed 5gbps) speeds. The lightning USB 3 camera adapter supports it for compatible devices. They did indeed figure this out long ago. They didn't do it because most people don't use lightning cables for data or even understand they _could_ use lightning cables for data.
> If Apple ever wanted to support faster than 40 Gbps, they would have to do so in concert with the rest of the tech industry and release it as an open standard. I'd like to hear somebody try to argue this is a bad thing.
Apple contributed to both thunderbolt iterations and to USB4. They were first adopters of both, as well as shipping the first USB-C laptop. I'm not sure what point you are trying to make here.
It's only by luck that it took enough time to not get stuck on that...
USB-C becoming standardized for phones will not slow the advancement of USB specs, and if the physical form factor becomes a constraint somehow, they will devise a better one and will standardize it likewise, even if consumer model phones can't ship with them from day 0.
A great example of this is EV charging connectors. The Tesla spec was superior until recently, but because the EU has mandated CCS, as communication/payment has been implemented within the standard, European cars find themselves with a universal plug and a universal charging network that can be unilaterally improved.
Meanwhile in the US we now have 2 charging networks on 2 standards, and no real path to unification.
There are currently three different fast charging standards, Tesla’s, CCS, and Chademo, and a vast need for improvements in charging infrastructure. If you don’t have a common standard, you end up with a fragmented network that caps everyone’s utility. Imagine if ICE cars could only get gas from certain types of stations, it’s madness.
Seriously? The clear leader for a decade has been Tesla, which is based in the US.
Chademo also has a lot of traction and is dominant in Japan and parts of east Asia.
CCS is popular in Europe (along with Tesla).
The EU mandated that all must use CCS, which has never been dominant in terms of technology or market share. It's blatant protectionism.
Apple’s Lightning (thinner than USB-C) and MagSafe (safer than USB-C for charging laptops… so glad Apple is transitioning back to it for M2 Airs)
But the best argument against "what about lightning?" is the fact that Apple themselves don't use it on their higher powered devices like macs, and use USB-C instead.
That said, you're absolutely right that its limit is reached already with phones. Some old cables have two pins (presumably VDD) that are discolored from use. Would not want lightning for charging a laptop.
I had 2 Google Pixels before with USB-C and both died because dust would accumulate around the center thingy and it was impossible to clean. The center thingy actually became loose on my second Pixel and the connector wouldn’t hold in place anymore.
I have since switched to an iPhone and I think the lightning connector stays remarkably clean. It’s also easier to clean because it doesn’t have the center piece of USB-C connectors.
This has absolutely zero to do with the plug design of Lightning. There are crap cables for USB-A, USB-C, USB Micro, 3.5" audio, and any other standard you want to find that don't last.
> And that's not even considering how a little bit of dust can prevent your device from charging at all, and lightning ports are a complete dust magnet.
By what magic do you believe that lightning ports collect pocket lint that USB-C is immune to?
> But the best argument against "what about lightning?" is the fact that Apple themselves don't use it on their higher powered devices like macs, and use USB-C instead.
Nobody is making this point. They're saying the sheer existence of the Lightning plug lit a fire under the USB-IF to finish and greenlight USB-C. If Apple hadn't started producing Lightning devices, it's entirely possible we'd still be dealing with USB Micro.
That said, I'll happily die on the hill that the Lightning plug design is almost unilaterally superior to the USB-C plug design.
Calling Lightning superior is blatant Apple fanboyism.
MagSafe on phones is a total joke, and MagSafe on laptops exists _alongside_ USB-C charging.
the lightning connector itself is capable of USB 3.0 speeds, apple just keeps the iphone line (or the cables?) at usb 2.0 spec. The ipad pro can reach full speed.
https://apple.fandom.com/wiki/Lightning_to_USB_3_Camera_Adap...
For mac magsafe used to break every year where braided usb-c cable lasted me 3 years.
"Apple’s lightning-cable product page contains over 2,300 negative reviews of the lightning cable, with an overall rating of 1 out of 5 stars"
Lightning connectors do have the advantage you can safely stick a toothpick in them to remove lint, I don't know if lint building up inside the socket is a problem specific to lightning though.
It's a good thing there is so little innovation coming out of the EU or else their wreckless legislators could have actual impact.
> their wreckless legislators could have actual impact.
I think the positive impact of the currently existing micro-USB legislation is clear if you look back at the status quo before it existed. This new legislation simply improves upon it.
Notice also that nothing prevents apple from additionally shipping MagSafe on their laptops, the device just needs to be usable with a type-C charger.
From https://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/etudes/BRIE/2021/6988... , page 6:
Device-side connector: the included devices would have to be equipped with a USB-C receptacle on the device side (as described in the European standard EN IEC 62680-1-3:2021) and, in cases of charging power lower than 60 watts, be rechargeable with cables that complied with the same standard
Then on page 8, the latest expansion of scope:
Included devices: a larger range of small and medium-sized devices with power delivery up to 100 watts would be included under the scope of the directive, including e-readers, low-powered laptops, keyboards, mice, earbuds, screens, printers, portable navigations, smartwatches, personal care devices and electronic toys
Note the personal care devices: looks like this is going to include electronic toothbrushes and electric razors.
Having lived in a country (Thailand) where both Euro and US plugs work just fine as long as you mind your voltage, I have become quite annoyed at that lack of innovation.
It's not the plugs, it's the devices (or more commonly now, the power adapters) that work with 120, 240, or however many volts.
Nowadays many (most?) things take both voltages or, AFAICT -- I'm no electrician! -- anything reasonably close.
So in Thailand, for the most part, you can just plug in your MacBook or whatever and you don't need an adapter for the plug itself. Of course, if you're wrong about the voltage, things might go bad.
And as the other reply noted, this convenience doesn't make it safer, quite the opposite. But I just generally have realized there's a lot of innovation that could be done in plugs and sockets, but isn't being done.
As someone else commented above, the UK plugs are really interesting... but in my opinion maddeningly, unnecessarily big.
because the USB-IF historically has struggled to reach enough consensus from its stakeholders to allow innovation to take place. The entire reason that lightning exists in the first place is because USB-IF couldn't agree on a replacement for micro-B (which everyone agreed clearly needed improvement!) and one of the members just had to shrug and go do it themselves. Once one of the members had gone there and proven the concept, it lit a fire under the asses of the rest of the consortium.
Same for why thunderbolt exists as a standard and not as USB 4 in the first place... not enough consensus to go there as an official standard rather than an extension. It took what, 10 years after Thunderbolt was standardized before we finally pulled ourselves out of the fecal lagoon of USB 3.x standards?
And then you layer in the dysfunction from the members that are primarily interested in creating consumer confusion with the USB 3.0, USB3.1 Type-1, USB 3.1 Type-2, USB 3.2 Type-1, USB 3.2 Type-2, USB 3.2 Type-2x2 nonsense so that they can deceptively and maliciously sell yesterday's hardware with tomorrow's standard on the box... many of the members of USB-IF are interested in actively stalling progress if it means they save 30 cents on their BOM.
This is not an organization with consumer interests at heart. They are a bad choice to be the legal guardian (more like, conservator) of all innovation.
On top of that, I feel like USB-C is deliberately engineered to sell more ICs. Which wouldn't be that huge of an issue except as a result, all relevant ICs are sold out (or unsuitable).
CC/PD use a custom transmission standard so you can't implement it without a PHY, which basically means at least one dedicated IC.
You can also directly feed the needed voltage without the negotiation. So this is only partially true.
You don't need a marker chip in the cable unless you intend to go over 20V/3A.
Like IPv6
The government is not good at technology. They should step out of the way and let the consumer decide.
Wait, what? That's idiotic
It may be annoying if you don't already own a bunch of USB-C cables. But who doesn't?
> Fake USB-C cables like Nintendo's that have the right shape but do not adhere to spec should gradually disappear along with lightning cables
Which spec? There are a multitude of them! What we do, adhere all to the best spec and to only feed 5V power to a device (that could be done with 2 wires) require the same cable used to connect a thunderbolt device at 40Gb/s? Of course not, since the first one costs a couple of dollars, the second one tens of dollars, the first one can be as long as voltage drop permits it to be, the second one needs to be maximum 1 meter, the first one needs no shielding at all, the second one needs to be heavily shielded, that not only increases cost but makes it bulkier. And again, does a data cable that is used for thunderbolt connection (assuming that the thunderbolt device is externally powered) be designed to carry the full 5A of the spec? 5A is a lot of current, it will require bigger conductors, but for a data cable it doesn't make sense!
Type-C is a standard that makes to me not a lot of sense: they wanted to create the one connector that fits all, while in the past they designed different connector, one for each device, not because they wanted you to buy more cables but to avoid confusion in customers, if the cable fits it works I used to say back in the day, the VGA connector was physically different from a serial port, the PS2 connector was not the same as a parallel port, even if they could have done everything with one port they didn't.
Of course yes.
If the industry was stupid enough to put all of this behind a single plug, then single cable it is. Because pretty much every consumer who has more than one USB3/C cable is dead tired of "oh. This combo doesn't work, let me root for the other cables"
Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.
If you want to build a board, compatible with all USB-IF certified chargers and cables and all USB-PD power supplies, that only takes 5 V, the circuitry is two resistors. BOM is always important and stuff, but two resistors is as cheap as it gets. If you just throw it on a board and don't even bother to do a 2 minute google search, I'd take that as an indicator of the effort behind the rest of the board.
If it's obvious that it's not a "real" usb-c connector, deviations are reasonable IMHO (for example, a high speed scope connector or a port labelled "debug" on measurement equipment), but for power it's a bad idea. Some products use a "USB-C" power supply putting out 12V all the time (frying other devices connected to it) or save on the 2 resistors, leading to a lot of user confusion when devices will only work with USB-A to USB-C cables.
To the latter point: Doubt it. HDMI has tried to include Ethernet (with optional data wires), which luckily was a huge failure (almost no one implemented it). DisplayPort was trying to become USB-C before USB became USB-C. Ethernet now often doubles as a power supply. SD card slots could serve as an additional periphery slot in PDAs with SDIO. The only port common on a modern laptop that didn't (at least try) to include some completely other feature is probably the 3.5mm headphone socket (probably since there is no standard committee and even agreeing on how the 4 pin extension should work was a huge mess).
[1] The CC line is needed to determine which device is a power sink & power source. Otherwise, users might connect two 5V power supplies together and create a short (between probably 5.2V & 4.8V)
E: you also need vRd sensing to determine the available current.
EU should be there to set goals, not to dictate implementation.
Also, the regulation does not require devices to support USB-C forever, just that all devices support the same open charging standard. That standard can and will evolve over time; maybe not as fast as it would if not regulated, but it's pretty contrived to think it would actually stifle innovation.
So, having this kind of directive doesn't block special products, nor has any specific impact on the field evolving healthily. If anything, without this kind of regulation we'd probably still have 95 different charging cable standards.
Apple adhered by letter by making chargers USB and the phone not have USB, contrary to what the agreement wanted to achieve in spirit.
The EU approving this directive is simply the logical end conclusion of apple (and some small fish) not playing ball when asked to.
1. Cables have radically different capabilities - they may charge at 60W, 100W or 240W ; they may be limited to 480 mbps transmission rates or go all the way up to 40 gbps transmission. Up until now, the market has not regulated such that you can tell the difference when you grab a random cable, or necessarily tell the difference at time of purchase
2. Devices like the Nintendo Switch and Raspberry Pi shipped with broken implementations. For instance, the RPi would not work with cables that _supported_ over 60W charging rates.
If your idea of "innovation" is moving from one version of a spec to another version of the same spec requiring multiple trillion dollar companies and the EU setting a timeline, then your usage of the word is much narrower than mine.
Many advances that I consider truly innovative have often come from outsiders without the backing of the largest companies in the world and succeeded from the bottom up.
Except that could kill your Nintendo switch, and it's not like Nintendo is going to change how their hardware works on something that's already been released to the masses.
That's strictly an issue of atrocious hardware design in the switch and nothing else.
>[...] it's not like Nintendo is going to change how their hardware works on something that's already been released to the masses.
They will if they want to continue selling them in the EU after the deadline.
Of course, the first thing that comes to mind is what happens if better solutions are found. Will EU block innovation?
That question is addressed in the Q&A: https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/QANDA_...
In essence, they seem to believe that wired charging is mature enough for standardisation but further technologies can be implemented through "Radio Equipment Directive". In the same time, it appears that the wireless charging is unaffected because the tech is new and fast changing, therefore the manufacturers can include whatever wireless charging they see fit.
It really boils down to "No funny cables, why don't you try wireless charging of your liking if USB-C doesn't cut it for you?".
Not only aren't these strict readings, they aren't even sensible.
For example, NIST Weights and Measures division regulates the nozzle on the dispenser used for gasoline in the US.
> Each retail dispensing device from which fuel products are sold shall be equipped with a nozzle spout having a diameter that conforms with the latest version of SAE J285, “Dispenser Nozzle Spouts for Liquid Fuel Intended for Use with Spark-Ignition and Compression Ignition Engines.”
https://www.nist.gov/system/files/documents/2019/12/06/00-20...
A metering devices that dispenses electrical power is no different. https://www.nist.gov/pml/weights-and-measures/legal-metrolog...
These are very fundamental consumer protection regulations that have been solidly cemented in western civilization for many centuries now.
>not extend to regulation of [...] what measures are permitted.
That was exactly the point of that clause. The colonies all had their own system of measurement and it was a mess trying to do business. Now, congress did very little about it, but the founders intentionally reserved the right for them to fix that problem.
As dpratt remarked earlier[0], any interpretation which would deem nozzle size—or the specific form of an electrical connector—to be covered by the Weights and Measures clause of the Constitution would effectively cede unlimited power to the federal government. What couldn't they regulate under such broad rules?
So you're saying it's quite reasonable when you look at what actually happened?
The law defined a handful of categories. "fish" is actually "fish and miscellaneous". Invertebrates are explicitly part of that miscellaneous.
Society claiming this is wrong and being correct is exactly balanced by society claiming whales aren't fish and being incorrect.
(Whales are fish because they're descendants of fish and are more closely related to salmon than sharks are. The same goes for you. You're also a fish.)
I’m not sure how the legal power to say “the unit of mass called the ‘gram’ shall be defined as the mass of a cube of pure water, one centimeter on each side” allows you to say “anybody that manufactures a phone must include the following physical and logical features.” If you go off that definition, you’re basically ceding pretty much unlimited power to the government.
For cars, we have public metering devices that measure units of stuff and charge money. This makes it fall into the category of metering devices used in trade. And we do regulate those almost universally. You can’t just put a different shape nozzle on a gas pump, for instance.
You can't possibly believe what you typed.
So if you really want I believe you could issue a double port
Clunky for smartphones maybe, but should be trivial for larger devices
So Macbook Air 2022 with MagSafe charging will be completely legal as long as the USB-C can be used for charging.
For charging your car at Tesla chargers that haven't been upgraded to the standard yet there are adaptors available from Tesla plugs to standard fast charging plugs.
Older cars may need their weird custom connections but everything else has been pretty much been standardised. I don't know how much the EU decision has affected this, but it's not an EU exclusive feat.
EU don't like the idea of manufacturers locking down their users through different standards. EU is a densely populated place with limited natural resources and free space, therefore cables piling up or 10 different types of charging stations are problems that EU cannot afford. EU trash being shipped to poorer countries is already a serious problem for example.
Good to hear that in the US only Tesla was the outlier and the industry acted responsibly but unless regulated you can't guarantee that it will be like that or stay like that.
Businesses love to lock down their users, Tesla chargers are a major selling point for Tesla and from EU perspective having multiple charging networks that cannot be made interoperable without a substantial modifications is a no-no.
This sentence seems to imply that one cannot charge their non-Tesla car with the Tesla charging network without substantial modifications.
What do you mean by substantial modification? It is already possible for non-Tesla cars, in the United States, to charge at Tesla destination chargers with an adapter: https://qccharge.com/collections/jdapter-stub™-tesla-station...
There isn’t anything particular magic about Tesla Superchargers, either. A simple adapter+some API for the app will open it right up.
I’m not against standardization, btw.
Sadly, the US standard (CCS1) was heavily influenced by a desire for backward compatibility with J1772. Its not a great standard in itself.
Interoperability sure.
I would think ‘mass’ is a better metric to use than ‘volume’. Also, it’s not only the waste, but also the work needed to make it, and I would guess that’s a lot harder for electric chargers than for, say, the plastic bags that take up the bulk of the volume of trash.
Also, “Others are worse” isn’t a strong argument. Some of the large contributors to trash may not be completely unavoidable (example: plastic packaging). Because of that, it’s not possible to significantly reduce the amount of waste by making a few cuts on the largest contributors of trash. You have to do it by making lots of small cuts. This is one of them, and also a relatively easy gain.
If you wanted to save trash you'd probably go after packaging. Ban disposable water bottles (or something less drastic like taxing them extra) and there's 50 lifetimes of wall warts per person per annum.
This just isn't really an enviromental problem. Or if it is, it's so far down the scale as to be pointless to prioritize over almost anything. It's really about competition.
Most EU countries have actually outlawed landfills in favor of waste-to-energy systems. [1] Of course waste-to-energy only works for stuff like plastics, not for electronics which you'd rather want to disassemble carefully to recover the precious metals.
> If you wanted to save trash you'd probably go after packaging.
Which the EU does too. There is legislation underway (or possibly already passed) to outlaw many types of single-use plastic items. Everyone switching from plastic straws to paper straws may actually be another case of Brussels effect.
> it's so far down the scale as to be pointless to prioritize over almost anything
The thing is, from experience we know that these legislations take so long to enact and enforce that you cannot just start with the biggest items, wait for it to be done, and then move to the next biggest item. You need to tackle many possible avenues for waste reduction at once.
it boils down to "as long as the USB-C is provided"
anyway electric plugs have been a standard for decades, better options to supply energy have come out, the plugs have stayed the same.
I don't understand the FOMO.
Can you provide a source? AFAIK you can have a device without USB-C and only wireless charging.
in so far as they are capable of being recharged via wired charging, shall:
so you can have all the funny cables you want, as long as you provide the USB-C plug
If there is no wired charging, there is no problem of funny cables.
but companies are free to experiment all the kinds of wired charging they want, it's just more convenient to have a standard and they'll comply happily I guess, now that they are forced by the law and can stop competing on stupid stuff like charging cables.
It already has. Tesla's connector is nicer (you can call that subjective but it isn't) and the supercharging network in the US is deploying the clunky standard sort of connector as well.
If EU legislation were universal, that would preclude any future where the superior connector is licensed and takes over from the crappy designed-by-committee alternative, because Tesla would be forced to stop manufacturing it.
Legislators deciding who gets to be VHS and who has to be Betamax is bad, actually.
The EU plug locks into the car while charging. Not sure why you think it doesn't.
There's also no obligation to have an extra flap, my Model 3 does not.
1. At a public charger, one should have to authenticate to _either_ the car or the charger to interrupt an active charging session.
2. When using a portable charger of the sort that is owned by the car’s owner, one should not be able to unplug the charger and thus steal it if one cannot authenticate to the car.
And that’s it. You should be able to unplug someone else from a public charger that can reach multiple parking spaces once it finishes charging.
The CCS1 standard locks the cable using a little flap that folds down on top of the CCS1 latch to hold it in place. Its every bit as clumsy as it sounds, but it does mean there is a locked cable.
Example CCS1 inlet: http://www.wind-works.org/cms/index.php?id=84&tx_ttnews%5Btt...
What do you tell your children?
When you are not happy with decisions the governments make, it usually means that you should be involved in the process of making the decisions.
Europeans don't trust that the industry will always come up with the best solutions for the user, Americans usually don't trust the government doing something well unless it's the military. Let's agree to disagree.
I like that the car plugs are the same everywhere in EU and want it to stay that way and enjoy the Tesla plugs on a trip to USA.
In the short term, yes. In the long term however competition between these different standards will cause consolidation and overall technology improvement. The next step will be regulating wireless charging so that all devices have to use/do the same thing, rinse-wash-repeat.
> Europeans don't trust that the industry will always come up with the best solutions for the user, Americans usually don't trust the government doing something well unless it's the military. Let's agree to disagree.
A better way to think about this is that both "groups" can learn from one another. For example you could say that Europeans should be suspicious about USB-C manufacturers and advocates effectively being granted a monopoly in the name of convenience. Americans should better trust that certainly in the case of infrastructure it makes sense to have a single standard "plug" for electric vehicles because we really need as many people driving them as possible in the most convenient way.
I guess In Europe we kind of like the idea of being able to overthrow the people in power if they screw us too much. It's much more socially acceptable to burn cars and occupy streets and decapitate politicians than shooting CEO's when you are really not happy with the way things work. It feels like you have control over the stuff going on in your country.
Europe is very old, we are used to have old stuff laying around. Old building that definitely don't meet the modern requirements are everywhere. Besides, the states with Cable Freedom will also have all the obsolate cables when the industry finally comes up with the perfect cable.
So what's the problem with allowing lightning to exist, since as a standard it predated USB-C (and in fact was the impetus for the creation of the latter)? If we allow neighborhoods to keep their old power connectors without retrofit... why not allow lightning to continue to exist?
If you think that’s a superior solution, then the regulation should actually support it: require that all EV charging connectors have a free published specification, disallow patents on them, and require that interoperability be permitted without cost or other penalty. (e.g. anyone should be able to implement both ends of the Tesla supercharging protocol such that Tesla’s chargers would charge a competing car at the same prices that they charge Tesla’s; similarly, a competing charger should be able to charge a Tesla.)
There should be some common ground. Regulations that encourage innovation (perhaps even with timed financial incentives) while also ensuring that the best ideas are eventually freely adoptable across the board.
Seems like, as with most issues, people take one extreme or the other, when a common sense middle ground could be found with proper planning and forethought.
Disallowing patents is the libertarian solution, though it would be up to the customers to demand published specifications and official support for interoperability.
That is how it was sold to the public. Unfortunately the system was never designed with the proper structure and incentives to ensure that patents were only granted when doing so actually resulted in the publication of accurate details about useful inventions which would not have become known to the public anyway well before the patent period expired.
In practice, if you think you can keep something a trade secret for more than 20 years without it being independently reinvented you'll do that and not file for a patent. Patents are thus useful only in those cases where a patent is expected to be worse for the public than a trade secret, as they inhibit independent reinvention and reverse engineering for the duration of the patent.
One nitpick would be:
> e.g. anyone should be able to implement both ends of the Tesla supercharging protocol such that Tesla’s chargers would charge a competing car at the same prices that they charge Tesla’s; similarly, a competing chargers should be able to charge a Tesla.
I think this sounds good, but one of the details here is ensuring that other manufacturers are able to actually build the products correctly so a supercharger doesn't light a car on fire or something due to faulty equipment. Who is at fault? How is it prevented? What are the legal agreements? Etc.
On the pricing side though I'd have to strongly disagree. Tesla (or whoever) builds the infrastructure so they should be able to charge what they want. It's about the plug and interoperability of that standard, not infringing on the business model which I think goes too far. If they charge too much money, people won't use them and competitors will continue to emerge (I see new charging stations in Meijer parking lots being put next to Tesla infrastructure). There's no reason in my view to mandate pricing here and I think it would set back EV adoption to do so.
Anyone can produce USB-C chargers. That's not a monopoly. This will effectively enable competition on the charging market, since the big players can't bind their products to their own proprietary chargers anymore.
Have you ever felt the Apple/Microsoft charger to be lacking in some way? Breaking easily, too long cords, too short, wrong color, too expensive? Congratulations now you can make and sell those better chargers. Before, this was not possible.
"What if we created a charging cable that did X,Y,Z?"
"That would be cool but we have to use USB-C"
> Have you ever felt the Apple/Microsoft charger to be lacking in some way? Breaking easily, too long cords, too short, wrong color, too expensive?
No not really. In fact I’ve found most third-party products to be godawful. Good luck not buying something fraudulent on Amazon.com. But also, I’m not really sure what you are talking about. Companies sell charging equipment and cords now anyway.
Everything has trade-offs. I’m skeptical of the necessity of this regulation, especially given that the only holdout that anyone cares about is Apple and they’ve been adopting USB-C in all of their products over time. One benefit though will be manufacturers won’t include charging cables with new devices anymore. So that will further reduce waste. Wouldn’t be surprised to see lobbying behind the scenes from companies such as Apple to implement regulations like this so they can save money. I kind of like this as an investor because now you can save money by not including a cable (or maybe you still do and it’s just some cheap one for now) and then you go and up sell wireless chargers instead.
It leaves me hoping your economy becomes much smaller so Asia can start ignoring it. Or reform I guess, the vote is yours, not mine.
Also I'm not sure why you hold Asia so dear. You may soon get some centrally planned standards from China in the EV market and not only(i.e online services such tiktok)
> (f) Every retailer and wholesale purchaser-consumer shall equip all gasoline pumps from which gasoline is dispensed into motor vehicles with a nozzle spout that meets all the following specifications:
> (1) The outside diameter of the terminal end shall not be greater than 0.840 inches (2.134 centimeters).
> (2) The terminal end shall have a straight section of at least 2.5 inches (6.34 centimeters).
https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/40/80.22
Edit: fixed formatting
I appreciate the find.
Still though, having the same “regular” gas at every single gas station is an underrated benefit!
cries in Italian...
Should Europeans start hoping the US economy fails so that then FAA has less influence?[3]
Really I don't think this is something that really matters in the grand scheme of things. USB-C is a good enough standard and I don't see Apple coming out with some great new alternative.
From my perspective I have loads of broken Lightning cables but no broken USB-C ones. Also if something is going to break I'd rather the springs be in the cheap cable than the expensive phone socket as with Lightning.
1. Now you might think it's for people who break the smoking rule to have somewhere to put out their fags[2] but the "innovative" solution to that would be the sink.
2. You know that I know you know that's slang for cigarette, so stick to the point at hand please. :P
3. Just in case that's not blindingly obvious, the answer is NO, that would be terrible for everyone involved including both Europeans and Americans.
We live in a global economy, you are constantly affected by things happening thousand of miles away (e.g. Ukraine invasion bumped the price of gas across the world). Not sure why you're conflating that with the fact that these actions are "centrally-planned".
On the other hand, you're absolutely right that it doesn't help anyone if your car is incompatible with half of the chargers out there. Are adapter cables an option, perhaps?
The Tesla passive solution to the locking mechanism on their CCS1 passive adapter is as brilliant as it is simple. Just a little springloaded bar that locks the cable onto the adapter if and only if the adapter is inserted into the car. Then the car uses its regular adapter. This works well with CCS1 locking.
The other end of the spectrum are things like the setec adapter or the evhub adapter. Both of those don't have vehicle side locking with CCS1, which is a violation and a potential hazard.
The CCS adapter that allows you to supercharge a Tesla at non-Tesla DC superchargers is not (yet) available in the US [0]. Tesla does make them and you can buy them in South Korea, but not in the US.
[0] Except for a dodgy Chinese gizmo which I won't link to because it's reputed not to work reliably.
I was referring to the CCS adapter that is currently available in South Korea. Its a little heavier, but its also fairly easy to use (well, as easy as CCS usually is). It has become really easy to import them too, thanks to Harumio and other importers. The speeds are 150+kw, and close to 200kw on the newer Model S/X[1]. I expect that official availability will happen sometime this year, but if it doesn't, then presumably a third party will make a suitable passive adapter. Its a ridiculously simple device.
[1] I know officially S/X isn't even supported, but it has been demonstrated to work. Higher speeds are because of the newer 450V battery pack.
Most of us are not billionaires.
https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/perspectives-on-poli...
National politics in the US is certainly perverse, though it's probably just your US-centrism at work again if you think it's exceptional in this regard.
I was paraphrasing Gilens and Page, from the linked research article. In their words, they found that "economic elites and organized groups representing business interests have substantial independent impacts on U.S. government policy, while average citizens and mass-based interest groups have little or no independent influence".
If there has been subsequent research which contradicts their findings, I would be happy to read it.
This implies that you think that the reason the person believes that they should participate in government is because they don't live in the US and as such, have a functioning democracy and can have an impact on policy. I am asserting that people can have an effect on policy, just that you are more likely to have an effect when you are dealing with local government. This doesn't require a research paper to figure out; There are approximately 334 million Americans. The "average citizen" in this case would have almost no influence whatsoever on policy even in a "functioning democracy" and this is how it is designed. However, if you narrow that down to your state, there is a much lower population and the policies implemented will have a more direct impact on you. If you go even further and look at it from a county, township, or city level, you, by the virtue of their being a small fraction of the people potentially involved in governance, have a much larger effect on policy. The issue is that it seems that people don't want to affect how their town is governed, they want to make mass impact with big changes in policies at a national level.
Special interest groups and economic elites affecting national policy isn't a unique trait to the United States and they are not a valid reason to encourage people against participating in government. You are teaching helplessness which just perpetuates the issue.
https://www.vox.com/2016/5/9/11502464/gilens-page-oligarchy-...
Since the US is education-polarized, rich people are also more left wing than average, as are people who donate to political campaigns, and the more they donate the more left wing they are. (This is called "being Shor pilled".)
Consider the opposite of a sparsely-populated region, where the next charging point may be 50 miles away. In that case, having a random hodge-podge of competing connectors could have actual consequences.
In practice though, there is not much of an effect either way. All parties have an interest in interoperability: car owners would have adapter to hand if this was a common problem, and charging stations would make themselves available to as many paying customers as possible.
As a result, this will create artificial limits on where people can travel. EU is that much into standardisation because we want to remove these artificial limits created through the thousands years of history.
If 35% of ICE had square gas sockets and we had to keep around square-to-circle adapters the situation would not be better.
An EV charging port is handful of metal rods with a handle.
There's a single neighborhood in Rome where that happens and car chargers don't work. The "solution" is to request a three-phase 400V connection: the utility company can't deny it and it must be 220V to neutral.
Democracy is a very blunt tool. Very important when needed, but not good for fine tuning on any reasonable timescale.
Democracy is the freedom and right of involvement for the stakeholders (among other things)
> Democracy is a very blunt tool. Very important when needed, but not good for fine tuning on any reasonable time scale.
Very good for fine tuning at human time scales.
How does that work by voting or any other democratic activity?
Others will be unconvinced that it's really better, for the same reason people are skeptical of startup ideas until they become mainstream. So nobody will want to update the standard. So I couldn't release it in the market to prove that it's better, because that would be "lock-in". And the idea would die.
Whatever internal research that these companies made, to make them want to change their multi billion dollar market like this, they can go public with it first.
The EU will obviously be happy to include your better connector, provided that old cars can use it too via an adapter and new cars can use old connectors via an adapter. Then they can without issue transition to the new connector without wasting everyone's time and money.
Imagine a world where Ford cars use a different gas nozzle from a GM product in the US. The average person would have to pick and choose stations and if one were to go out of business, the lesser standard would encounter mass disposal and retrofit, all on the backs of consumers. The intent with these products is generally not innovation...it is lock in and licensing fees. The EU law in case here has a committee that reviews the standard yearly and accepts proposals.
Stations would just have two nozzles on their pumps.
(see: Tesla superchargers)
Of course, that's not quite the same as the laptop charger question where the fragmentation is between companies and less entrenched. But still.
I can say that, because Brexit happened, I have no clue what those were thinking when designing their own gigantic plug.
As I understand it, EU moves to standardise plugs failed in the 90s.
But Italy has the "normal" (schuko or French) plug. The old one (three holes in line) are in older houses mostly.
My previous data was based on my travel in EU. Now I'm corrected.
But there is a standardized plug that fits both schuko and French style sockets. That was probably why I didn't notice it earlier.
That's a bit of an oversimplification. I was in Italy on Thursday and also early in May. My very modern hotel rooms mostly had Italian three-hole sockets, with a single token 'standard' euro socket provided at the table, that nevertheless didn't always accept my (French-style) laptop cable because the prongs were too thick.
Also, flashy modern hotels aside, I'd say most houses in Italy are "older houses". The three-hole socket is definitely extremely common in Italy in my experience. In fact, there's two incompatible three-hole Italian sockets - a larger one for most appliances, and a smaller one for lights.
Regardless, I meant, physically within the borders of the EU, not during the time of the EU.
Those are 240V plugs, which are also standardized.
Its not like there's a plug for Samsung TVs, a different plug for Sonos sound bars, a different plug for a Sony alarm clock, a different plug for a Singer sewing machine, etc. They're all going to be a NEMA 5-15 plug since all of these things are ~120V and use less than 15A.
- All Teslas have their charging ports at the rear left side. This means that charging cables can be very short. Longer cables would cause tangles, cost more, and be harder to cool.
- Tesla's protocol has built-in payment. You plug in and charge. With CCS it varies. Sometimes you use a credit card. Sometimes you download a mobile app and sign up for some account. Sometimes the planets align and CCS's plug-and-charge works.
- The CCS plug is much bigger. If you look at the connector sizes[1] or adapters[2], the CSS plug is comically huge. Tesla had to redesign the tail lights on the Model S/X to fit CCS Combo 2 ports.
- Every exposed contact is a potential failure point, and CCS exposes more contacts than Tesla's charging port.
- CCS has two different plug dimensions which are used in different regions, so a European CCS vehicle brought to North America will need an adapter (and vice-versa).
- If your vehicle only supports AC charging, you cannot charge with CCS Combo plugs. They won't fit. Since some Teslas were made before the CCS Combo standard took off, older Model S/X's used a CCS Type 2 port. So now every Supercharger in Europe has two plugs: CCS Type 2 & Combo 2.[3]
1. https://teslatap.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/connector_co...
2. https://www.notateslaapp.com/images/news/2021/ccs-adapter.jp...
3. https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Eu-tesla-supercharge...
- Older X/S were never that numerous and shouldn't hold up the vast majority of the population. First movers disadvantage if you like.
- Moving vehicles across the Atlantic is also a tiny tiny use case and already difficult as is.
They didn't make the decision. It's more like legislators observing that Betamax is failing and deciding that it's in everyone's best interests to tell Sony that they have to adopt VHS instead of creating confusion in the marketplace.
> Tesla's connector is nicer
Tesla's system only goes up to 400 volts. CCS goes up to 800 volts. The higher voltage supports faster charging.
(This is similar to Betamax's critical flaw. The smaller, more elegant Betamax tape compared to the clunky VHS tape meant that VHS could record 6 hours on a tape when Betamax was limited to about 3.5 hours on a tape. It also meant that feature length films were often recorded at slower tape speeds, thus meaning that prerecorded VHS tapes were often a better quality than the Betamax version.)
DC Fast charging has to match pack voltage, so with 400ish volt pack voltage Tesla gets big charging speed by providing extreme amperage. CCS is limited to 500A, so the best way to provide really fast charging is higher pack voltages.
Higher voltage does have some benefits around heat and losses, but also has downsides like cost of electronics and installations over 600V generally require special electrical licensing.
It's hard to deny the tesla connector is a lot nicer to work with (especially V3 with thin, liquid cooled cables), but I still wish my model 3 sr+ had CCS like euro cars. I'd love to be able to have more charging options.
Tesla doesn't have a similar limitation and can do 250-300kw on the existing 400-450V cars.
Or like 1996 when Apple was failing and everyone should have been forced to standardize on Windows.
If Apple believes USB-C is really that bad (which I don't think they do) - then they have the option of creating a handset only for sale in Europe or they can remove all charging ports and go wireless charging. I bet they go with USB-C charging and wireless charging.
Interesting example. Betamax was technologically superior, but lost out due to marginally higher costs. What makes you think Tesla's connector wouldn't suffer the same fate?
I like the Tesla connector in the US, but in Europe, I'd argue that CCS2 is objectively superior. They need 3-phase power support and the Tesla connector doesn't support that. They also use a different CCS connector from the US. The CCS2 connector uses a latching mechanism that is similar to the proprietary Tesla one. Its simple and very reliable.
The US CCS1 system uses a dual latching mechanism. The cable and the car each have moving parts that are somewhat complicated. The cable side latch is a common failure point. It makes sense, given the desire to retain backward compatiblity with J1772 L1/L2 chargers, but I don't really think that was worth the tradeoff, tbh.
If every company thought like Tesla/Apple, we'd quickly go down a very untenable road.
On the other hand, this requirement to have an USB-C connector is pretty useless to downright counter-productive as it will indeed prevent innovation. It's just political hand-waving.
Standardizing against Tesla at any earlier point would have been a gift on a silver platter for legacy auto by slowing EV adoption, and it's Tesla's freedom to innovate that is why we're even having this discussion instead of theoretical questions about what EVs might be like in the future.
I usually tell them to let Tesla solve the remaining edge cases (semis, trailer hauling, and charge speeds comparable to ICE fill-ups) before we start regulating. Setting things in stone now would be like standardizing on DSL as the only last-mile broadband in 2004. We don't want to do that.
That's just impossible. Filling a 100 kWh "tank" in one minute requires 6 MW of power, plus all the power that goes into heat. The only solution would be replacing batteries on the fly but Tesla discontinued it.
Moving stuff is inherently faster than chemical reactions (unless you're talking about explosions).
Getting it down to five minutes to fill to 80% may be sufficient. Right now it's 15-20 minutes.
First, if a car takes five times longer to charge, you need a lot more space to cover the needs for peak days. This may not be a problem on highways (or in the US) but space in Europe is much more limited.
Second, a smallish 6-pump filling station serves 150-200 cars per hour. An equivalent charging station would need 12-15 MW which means working at 40 kV.
Dealing with peak days is easy for filling stations, you just request gasoline trucks more frequently. For charging stations you need to build infrastructure that might hardly exist in more rural places, it's the same as sneakernet vs broadband.
Your crystal ball seems broken. You could have said the exact same thing about micro-usb for phone chargers, yet somehow we ended up in the present.
Hint: Your supposed critical flaw is incredibly obvious. So either everyone but you is an idiot or just maybe the people making laws have thought of that too...
But it's also true that USB-C with PD is better than the alternatives in its space so occasionally the committees get things right.
Currently working at a company that makes CCS chargers. Can confirm the standard is an absolute shit show, the cables are heavy, and the plugs are a giant pain in the ass. But hey, it's the standard so that's what we make. Oh, and why TF do we have a PowerLine Communication chip to talk to the vehicle over (non-power) signal wires? A few CAN messages would have done the job. One of the stupidest communication standards ever.
you know what's even nicer? Being able to charge your car at any charging station and not just the ones built by your manufacturer.
Imagine if you could only fill up your gas tank at specific gas stations that support your tank opening.
Didn’t the EU previously mandate micro USB A? I believe Apple included an adapter in the box for all EU SKUs.
Edit: it was not compulsory: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_external_power_supply
Previously the EU had a (non-compulsory) rule on micro A as the charging standard: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_external_power_supply
Plus they leave the door open for a wireless alternative.
Tim Cook has his own PR team, haha.
Anyway, I like USB-C more, I have to carry them anyway, so it’d eliminate one cable when I travel. We’re as close as I’ve ever seen to having the one cable to rule them all, which is pretty cool.
Frankly, I’m expecting the lightning port to be replaced with a purely inductive/magnetic solution eventually, there probably will not even be a receptacle for it, just a wireless contact to the phone from the wire like how the Apple Watch can only charged.
I’m guessing in that case, they would be exempt from providing a usb-c port since the phones would be technically purely wireless by that point. At that point, other vendors will follow and the EU will mandate Qi as the standard wireless charging solution since the USB-C mandate will be obsolete.
Innovation is overrated. And standardising is not blocking.
What we need more urgently than innovation is to stop creating so much waste, extracting so much stuff from the earth, and in general reduce consumption. Standardisation accomplishes at least some of that.
Hard disagree? Both lightning and USB C were massive improvements in durability compared to Micro USB - I'd argue lightning is still better in that regard, because there's no thin piece inside the phone that can break (did phone repair, and 99% of the time a "broken" iphone port was just stuck lint).
USB C is not universally better then then Micro, namely it has a much larger footprint both on the connector side and the PCB.
> Will EU block innovation?
So my question is - if there's a new USB standard connector that's smaller, or is inside-out for better durability - is it now prevented from being used?
But that's precisely my problem with this - if we're forcing every device to merely adopt a USB-C port, that does nothing to ensure they're actually using USB-C specifications or interoperable. Game System X and Phone Y may only work with USB-C cables/chargers X and Y, which satisfy the requirement without fixing the compatibility problem.
You certainly need more than just the physical port. IMHO the minimum reasonable requirement would be that the device must charge at near the maximum supported rate (minimum of the device's, cable's, and charger's advertised rates) with any combination of compliant charger & cable. There wouldn't be much point in mandating the use of USB-C ports otherwise.
Then I guess you got one from the first hardware revision. I have a 2018 Switch (second hardware revision as far as I understand), and I have in the past charged it successfully with Apple chargers and Lenovo chargers.
I'd be fine with a new USB-D that fixed all these issues. USB-C is just mostly better than the other alternatives for Android and charging laptops. Its far from perfect.
I just wanted to point out that it's not universally superior to micro USB or lightning, and there are places it could be improved.
How about non-removable batteries and unrepairable phones? Many phones would be still ok, but the non-removable (cheaply) battery means that they get replaced prematurely, because the cost of replacement is overlapping the price of a low/mid tear phones. Back in the day, you pulled the back cover off, put a new batter in, and the phone was as good as new. Same with other types of repair, especially the kinds where manufacturer just replaces the whole assembly just because of one small part malfunctioning.
It’s ok to let USB-C live for another 60-100 years.
Probably until someday that 24 physical wire isn't enough for a phone. (but the iPhone don't even use the usb3 yet, why did it even need these bandwidth?)
You could imagine if we had formed such a standard around USB A in the 90s and how it might have blocked the already high friction establishment of USB C and thunderbolt 3 standards.
USB C currently seems more mature than USB A, so I can see where things ar ea bit subjective here, but it's not really possible to see where unrestricted development would have put us.
I think I would have been more comfortable with simply banning lightning and micro USB than restricting to only USB C.
As for suggestions for improvements: it should not be able to spin, because spinning wears it down. Second, maybe some kind of latch to lock it into place.
The EU has no problem with updating to improved standards. First there was USB-Mini-B, then USB-Micro-B, now USB-C. I would expect some different connector to replace it in a about a decade and 100% wireless in two decades roughly.
I have a hard time imagining much advantage beyond USB-C. It's pretty mechanically fit & reliable, it has huge bandwidth (I think DisplayPort alt-modes can do 80Gbps?), it can transmit 240W in Extended Power Range variants. Someday perhaps. But I also think this might be here to stay for a long long time.
Side note, there's some really really cheap fiber optic DisplayPort cables out there. They work, they're whatever length you want, mine were ~$0.60/foot. My monitors are 4k60 & 2k170; all resolutions run great. I feel like we're not too far off from fiber maybe happening for real.
Usb typec wire from 65A(non e-marked wire) to 240A(the latest standardized e-marked wire) uses literally the same plug.
Typec is the header but not the protocol. Even China phone vendor's proprietary high speed charging protocol use typec wire. And Intel's tb4 wire also use a type c wire. (the bandwidth of tb4 is definitely overkill for every phone ever made on the world for now)
Force use of typec header and baseline charging protocol prevent innovation is just bs consider this didn't even prevent apple from making a MFA e-marked typec cable.(Or they don't want this to pass because they actually want to do this again?)
That depends on what you're doing with it. It would not be very strange to power a VR headset with a phone, which could easily get into that bandwidth range.
For reference, we need 2-4 lanes of DP HBR3 (depending on compression) + PCIe Gen3x4 for the camera passthrough. TBT3/4 could do it over a single cable.
Feeds into the nightmare that is implementing that entire ecosystem though...
no... we also had the Micro USB standard because of Europe...
I have no expectation, for example, that these same regulators will stay on top of this and revise it when USB-C stops being the preferred or best choice.
Twenty years ago, we really DID have a snarl of competing and proprietary phone ports. It was a mess -- Blackberry chargers didn't work with Palm; most WinMo devices had their own ports; etc. It was ugly.
Now, pretty much everything is either USB or Lightning. This is good! What problem is the EU solving here?
Plus Apple Watches have always been only charged via conductive, so it’s likely phones could have gone that way too within a short space of time if the lack of a data cable was deemed acceptable.
Only devices charged by cable need to have USB-C.
To be clear, wireless charging with "magsafe" is still slower than using a cable.
I think this is a step over the line for regulators but so is apples behavior for the last decade or two when it comes to repairability.
Fuck em.
That's a bit over the top, don't you think? When Apple created the Lightning connector, the accepted alternative was micro-USB. And micro-USB is terrible, awful, no-good, crap. Many millions of people are happy Lightning existed to bridge the time before the rest of the world could design a slightly better small USB connector. Which, of course, might still not be as durable as Lightning, but it's good enough.
But at this point, USBC is the better mousetrap, they're now just using their market dominance to force a worse mouse trap on everyone to keep milking lucrative patent fees outside of what an efficient market would allow.
So again, fuck em.
Side note, this is why I really hate IP law (or at least the over the top term lengths of it). If they didn't have a monopoly on lightening connectors this wouldn't be a problem and the market would resolve this "problem" on it's own.
You don't get to act like they're just behaving like a free market participant should when they're actively exploiting a different market regulation.
I wonder what the fix here is. Would it be choosing a patent term length that optimises for spurring innovation?
Too short and you make it not worth while. Too long and things stagnate like this. Why does society put up with such suboptimal market parameters?
You seem to be leaving out all the ways in which it's better for Apple's customers to have, and to keep, Lightning, so, let's review so you can argue in good faith and from an informed perspective next time:
1) Lightning is significantly more compact than the USB-C port, enabling a more durable case in the vulnerable area surrounding the port 2) Lightning is more durable as well 3) Lightning even FEELS better to plug in and to use 4) Lightning has superior ability to be waterproofed 5) Billions of Lightning cables and accessories have already been manufactured and are in use and it'd be nice to not replace them all until that's actually necessary
But the EU pushing this for the past decades is responsible for almost everything being interoperable.
> I have no expectation, for example, that these same regulators will stay on top of this and revise it when USB-C stops being the preferred or best choice.
They didn't write the law as "you must use USB-C" They wrote the law as "The industry experts need to pick A standard for charging, and all manufacturers should respect that choice"
They are welcome to change it going forward, they just have to agree and consolidate.
> With respect to radio equipment capable of being recharged via means other than wired charging, the Commission is empowered to adopt delegated acts in accordance with Article 44 in order to amend Annex Ia in the light of technical progress, and to ensure the minimum common interoperability between radio equipment and their charging devices, by: (a) introducing, modifying, adding or removing categories or classes of radio equipment; (b) introducing, modifying, adding or removing technical specifications, including references and descriptions, in relation to charging interface(s) and charging communication protocol(s), for each category or class of radio equipment concerned.’;
So the commission can adopt new standards trough a much lighter executive process. It does not require new legislation to update the standard.
> Hand-held mobile phones, tablets, digital cameras, headphones, headsets, handheld videogame consoles and portable speakers, in so far as they are capable of being recharged via wired charging, shall:
> (a) be equipped with the USB Type-C receptacle, as described in the standard EN IEC 62680-1-3:2021 ‘Universal serial bus interfaces for data and power - Part 1-3: Common components - USB Type-C TM Cable and Connector Specification’, which should remain accessible and operational at all times;
To switch to a new charger type would require legislative action, not just industry experts changing their mind. That said, I actually strongly prefer this approach to allowing an industry self-regulating group to make these decision.
[1] https://ec.europa.eu/docsroom/documents/46755/attachments/4/...
It seems like wireless charging still falls into that category (they require some form of interoperability by 2026, but do not state the exact form).
Why? No idea. It's a much slower standard, and puts the wearing parts in the port instead of the cable. USB-C is designed by committee, sure, but the port itself is better than lightning in nearly every consumer metric there is.
Beyond that, the springloaded contacts are on the cable end with type-c, with lightning it's inside the phone. I don't think it's a particularly common failure mode, but having less moving parts in the expensive bit is generally a good idea.
USB-C exists because Apple was in the process of creating Lightning. Also, in my experience, you seem to have the fragility point backward: the nub on lightning cables may break, but the port is fine, while the reverse is true for USB-C, where the fragile bit is in the port.
"Any technological developments in wired charging can be reflected in a timely adjustment of technical requirements/ specific standards under the Radio Equipment Directive. This would ensure that the technology used is not outdated."
"At the same time, the implementation of any new standards in further revisions of Radio Equipment Directive would need to be developed in a harmonised manner, respecting the objectives of full interoperability. Industry is therefore expected to continue the work already undertaken on the standardised interface, led by the USB-IF organisation, in view of developing new interoperable, open and non-controversial solutions."
That's not how innovation works. What motivation would they have to change it if all your competitors will change it step? This only hurts consumers.
Yes, exactly, this is how standardization works.
Who cares about innovation in charging plugs form factor?
Innovations should be innovative enough to get around the plug.
Light bulbs have been the same for at least 80 years and it didn't stop innovation.
Why do people are so scared about things that are only hypothetical, while this solves a real issue?
But it was pretty good for many decades.
Having a retro compatible socket drove the adoption of more energy efficient bulbs.
Every time I rented a place with MR16, like 1/3 of all sockets in the ceiling were dead, the power supply was inside the false ceiling and it was not possible to fix without making a hole. Needless to say lardlord need much motivating to fix anything.
Also, it;s not illegal to install random non-standard bulbs -> my last apartmentblock was built with some special, great, proprietary and patented LED-spesific socket. Guess what happened? 15 years on, the lamps started failing, and the manufacturere dropped production of anything for that socket!
Now they need to replace like a thousands light fittings across the entire block, there is no way to get replacements. Some of them are in awkward places and will require a special vehicle to reach.
Do we believe given the track record of a new connector being introduced more frequently than once every 5 years just within the USB standardization process, that we've somehow reached the end of that road in practical terms? If we've reached the end of the road, by all means we could standardize and say "you have to use the pinnacle of USB connector type".
I still use Ethernet at work, it's connected to the thunderbolt port through an adaptor.
https://www.mouser.it/images/qualtek/hd/703W-00_SPL.jpg
It has been working quite well in many electronic devices for decades...
I don't see the usefulness of discussing things that have not happened.
Is USB-C bad?
That's the question you should be interested in.
“The best is the enemy of the good.”
Saying that choices should never be made because we don't know what the future brings, is the same of saying that there's no point in living, because we are all going to die.
Of course they did not settle on USB-B in 1999 because there weren't billions of devices using it and it was relatively new technology.
Now it's a de facto standard already.
Perhaps I'm at least equally interested in "when something better than USB-C is available, do I think that should be allowed instead?"
> Now it's a de facto standard already.
That’s all the more reason to not make it a de jure standard.
what about "USB C is here to stay so why bother to worry about something that will change in a distant future, if it will change at all?"
Cui prodest?
> That’s all the more reason to not make it a de jure standard.
on the contrary
that's all the more reason to do it.
imagine if we used your mentality where we would be now
hundreds of different de facto standards for light bulb sockets, power plugs, gas pumps, road size, traffic light colors. etc etc
basically the definition of hell
Not all that many companies are doing work for cable standards to begin with, and personally - as a consumer - I very much welcome the standardization on usb-c.
The companies that are doing work on communication standards aren't normally selling the kind of devices covered here to consumers. It's more business to business and military applications. Further, charging in particular is a different beast than communication in general - you're not doing anything other than sending current down the line to fill a battery. there's only so many ways to do that, and I think it makes sense to consolidate them.
Finally - the requirement only states that the device must include a usb-c port for charging. It makes no limitations on manufacturers including additional ports. So even if a direct to consumer device wanted to include a new port - they absolutely could, they just still have to allow filling the battery from usb-c.
In the vast majority of devices you accept what the manufacture gives you or you are out of luck, especially when everything these days is protected by some kind of intellectual property.
This excuse is old and tired and tends to ignore that large manufactures purposefully make the customer experience worse for higher profits.
B: "You should buy a phone with USB-C charging."
A: "But I don't want anyone else to be able to buy a phone that doesn't have USB-C charging."
B: "You should petition the government to make that illegal, I guess."
It's still not clear that having this be regulated is better.
We don't have a port problem. We used to have one, but it went away. It sure LOOKS like Apple will, eventually, transition away from Lightning on its own anyway.
So why have regulators weigh in here at all? What's the point? What value is added?
Why? Everything is usb or lightning because people complained, and everyone but apple listened to people. If USB-C is no longer the best thing, rather than complain to 10 companies, and hope they all agree, they will complain to regulators, and hope they agree.
What precisely is the difference you see?
The regulators are at least accountable in some sense to the people, the companies are not.
This is no different than any other customer - they are just representing the overall customers who would otherwise not have enough power or voice to achieve what they want.
Also - if you don't want your industry regulated, maybe don't make a mess of it?
Regulators rarely pay attention to things that are working super-well.
Customers can choose to buy Android phones.
Beyond that, this is the magical free market will fix everything. Despite all evidence to the contrary.
Yes, you are very free to choose an Android phone with USB-C if that’s what you want - just like over 65% of the EU does.
Rather than making lots of unfounded assertions about what "will" happen, as you keep doing, I would encourage you to actually read the details first.
If this had happened with computers, Apple would have been forced to include PS/2 slots and ISA instead of the much better ADB and Nubus slots.
This requirement kills the new port in its crib.
I was more thinking of application like Laptops, where you can have multiple different ports already without issue.
How many people can afford at minimum a $429 phone who can’t afford a couple of extra cables?
“poor people aren’t buying iPhones”. But they are buying Androids that are not being supported by their manufactures with even security updates shortly after they buy them.
And if USB-C turns out to be bad, which I don't think'll happen for quite some time, the EU can make sure that legislation ensures poor people won't have to buy a new phone or a new charger until they want to.
If this same type of law had been in effect with computers back in the 90s Apple would have had to include PS/2 and ISA and add more ports.
Also I don't see how this connects to PS2 or ISA, since back then such regulation wasn't in huge demand yet. The charger issue however is a demand and it seems to be backed by the general population. Having one charger for all devices is a big plus for everyone involved.
And if you somehow develop a new charger port that is much much better, then yes, it should have to go through the process of being approved, so that we don't start hopping into new charging ports every 10 years. That would make the entire regulation worthless. And yes that might mean your port has to be interoperable or you need to have both ports (USB AB is an example, which fit both A and B plugs, for micro and mini variants) or easily allow an adapter you can leave plugged into the phone (in-plug adapter).
We're much further into the development into computers and the future of USB-C is less uncertain as PS/2 and ISA. USB-C is a good-enough compromise that can most likely handle the next 30 years of computer needs. The market isn't as quickly evolving in that direction anymore, IMO.
You really think consumers care more about replacing ten dollar cords for their phones than having to replace their phones because Android manufactures don’t provide support for their phones more than a year?
30 years ago, my computer had SCSI (which was a cross platform standard), ADB, and Nubus ports - all better than the industry standard. That would have never happened with government mandating standards. I used my own free will and voted with my dollars to choose to be incompatible- just like Apple users today.
Even decade+ old cars support the old iPod protocol for music (still supported by iPhones). Should the government force all phones to support the iPod protocol for the sake of “the poor people so they don’t have to buy new cars”?
It would also be inconvenient for former iPhone users who have AirPrint printers. Should we force all phone makers to support AirPrint? It’s based on an open source protocol.
There is an issue with a huge amount of waste and spent money relating to chargers, especially disadvantaging poor people. If everyone is on USB-C that stops being a problem. All chargers work with your device and all devices work with your charger. I fail to see how escalating the problem into extremes addresses the advantages of the EU decision...
I don't see a consumer win here, basically. I see overreach.
It's faster, it handles power better, it's more durable, and it's symmetrical. Hell, that last one alone probably won over a bunch of folks.
We have to talk about the ewaste issue, which is massive score on the earth. The particular village in China where all our waste get recycled is just a horrible scene. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_waste_in_Guiyu
This is a small step, but standardization is a great thing towards less waste.
Does the EU mandate say which USB-C modes and variations have to be supported?
"the devices should incorporate the USB Power Delivery (USB PD) standard (as described in the European standard EN IEC 62680-1-2:2021) and ensure that any additional charging protocols allow for full USB PD functionality (new annex Ia, part I)."
Then the referenced: "EN IEC 62680-1-2:2021" standard specifies
"To facilitate optimum charging, the specification defines two mechanisms a USB Charger can advertise for the Device to use: 1. A list of fixed voltages each with a maximum current. 2. A list of programmable voltage ranges each with a maximum current (PPS). The Device requests a voltage (in 20 mV increments) that is within the advertised range and a maximum current."
But those regs get over my head quickly, so someone else may have better luck interpreting them.
If the EU is going to reference a standard owned by somebody else, they should purchase a license that allows them to publicly post the entire standard (AFAIK, they haven't done that). Or they could pass laws that say any standards referenced by law lose their copyright status. This would be a type of eminent domain for intellectual property.
And we have always been at war with EastAsia.
Is not design per se, but essential functionality. Radio is also regulated.
And this happens in many other industries as well, see cars and all the mandatory devices included in them.
I don't know where I stand on this ruling philosophically, but I'm looking forward to having accessories all use USB-C instead of having some for Apple and some for everyone else.
USB-C is a pretty lax standard (for good and bad) and at the end of the day, the ultimate reason regulators have to come into play is that the industry didn't deal with this issue internally.
compare cars from 40s-70s to what came after, its a different world
you can argue it was worth it, but you can’t argue cars didn’t get homogeneous and boring in the process
https://www.ranker.com/list/list-of-all-cars-made-in-1966/re...
I feel like you see one car from 1966 then notice how most cars today are similar, and use that difference.
Yeah. we understood that they not only pollute the environment and it's stupid to build cars the size of a starship, but also by 1973 the World (except the US) understood that oil is not for granted and fuel efficiency should be a thing.
Also safety while we are at it, doesn't sound so bad...
The most obvious examples that come to mind:
- Small cars aren't that small anymore to stop them from being blatant death traps.
- A lot of the edges have been smoothed and curved to make impact with pedestrians less deadly (also killed pop-up lights and hood ornaments, which is kinda funny considering the Mercedes Benz hood ornament was sometimes jokingly described as a sight to aim for pedestrians)
- Thick A pillars due to crash tests regulations
While I can blame these for killing out novel or even trademark features of some vehicles lineups, I don't think alone they made everyone homogenize their design, it's just what the industry eventually converged on by themselves.
Look at phones, there's no regulation on what a phone should look like, yet today phones are just a fancy screen, nothing like the incredible variety that Nokia alone sported back in the late 90s/early 2000s.
A 2021 Mustang Mach E has a wheelbase of 107" and is 188.5" long.
Which one is humongous?
Even if you looked at the original 1964 Mustang, its not that much smaller than the Mach E which is a 5-door crossover. The '64 had a wheelbase of 108" and an overall length of 181.6", just 7 inches shorter for a coupe.
Older American cars were often land yachts. The old family sedan of the 1960s are often larger than crossovers of today, they just don't sit as high.
cars look boring is like saying it's a bummer cancer isn't cool.
This problem
Apple gets credit for creating Lightning to begin with while we waited for something better than micro-USB to come along. I'm glad for USB-C, but damn, it sure took a while.
Everything works together, except Apple stuff.
Apple's phones are quite locked down, and I think a big reason why is that proprietary lightning connector. When you have a usb port for charging, there is no excuse for not implementing the full standard software-side.
He couldn't use it.
Of course, not being an iphone user, I did not have an adapter. Neither did he, considering he forgot his charger.
The iphone and the usbc charger did not work together.
It's the cable that's the issue.
Yes they are, with a directive from 2019. See for example https://grunecker.de/en/blog/sales-of-goods-directive-and-di..., search for “Update Obligations”.
The courts will have to decide what “the usual period of the product's use and service life” means exactly, but certainly longer than the six months you originally mentioned.
For reference, the iPhone 6S released in 2015 will lose operating system updates this year. The 2013 iPhone 5s got a security update this year.
What are the chances that any Android manufactures will support their phones that long?
Seat belts, air bags, maximum vehicle weight, maximum vehicle width... It's a very large part of what they do.
"European consumers were frustrated long with multiple chargers piling up with every new device"
This was solved by companies no longer providing chargers with new devices. When you buy a new phone, you use your existing charger, only buying a new one when you actually need it.
If you buy a new iPhone, you get a cable that plugs into a USB-C charger.
If USB-C is mandated on the phone end:
* I'll spend the next 20 years realising I have the wrong white phone charging cable with me
* I still won't trust random USB-C cables
* I still won't trust random USB-C chargers
But - let's just do it. Maybe in 40 years it'll have seemed worth it.ever heard of adaptors?
apple loves them and loves charging 29 dollars for them!
> I still won't trust random USB-C cables
> I still won't trust random USB-C chargers
My answer to all three of these is the same: Why? My phone charges with every crappy USB cable and charger. Heck, my laptop will trickle charge [!] off a crappy cable on a crappy airline USB-C port.
There's one place where I'm very careful about USB-C: keeping the specific USB-C cables with my laptop with the chargers themselves, just in case I need the Thunderbolt capability. The TB monitor I bought has a specific cable that stays attached to it.
From looking on AliExpress the last few weeks, TB 100W cables appear to be getting commoditized. It's likely this worry I have about keeping laptop C cables straight won't be a big issue for much longer.
[!] Amusingly, my laptop won't actually charge off the _standard_ A/C plugs on most airplanes because the 100W charger blows a soft fuse that requires unplugging and replugging the A/C adapter!
To be fair, 100 W may not seem like a lot when you're used to plugging in to the national power grid, but it's a lot to ask for a non-essential system supplied by an off-grid generator shared by hundreds of passengers. And 100 W is the maximum allowance for In-Seat Power Support Systems according to the FAA, before any conversion losses in your power adapter; the actual amount available to you may be much less.
My point was really that even the most entrenched "standards" are all just leaky abstractions.
I don’t trust random cables to plug into my phone because I’m paranoid about getting hacked. I access some systems with sensitive data via my phone and I don’t want to be the route of compromise.
I don’t trust random chargers not to set my house on fire while I sleep, or - worse - fail to charge properly and I don’t have enough charge left to run the crossword app on my phone.
The new legislation is the type of feel-good lawmaking that sounds good on paper but has no real impact on society.
"The EU" is not a singular entity. The tiny little parts of the EU doing most of the work on this combined with the tiny amount of time spent by larger parts of the EU seems well worth it to me.
This was part of the EU Commission's 2020 work programme as one small sub-point among well over a hundred under one of the 43 main goals, as a secondary priority after a long list of climate and economic changes.
You're of course free to disagree with their prioritisation, but this has hardly been a major part of the Commissions work.
> The law will not take effect until 2024, and in the meantime the industry has largely moved toward USB-C / wireless charging.
Even with respect to mobile phones this excludes a certain notable holdout that accounts for a large proportion of the market, and which have kept resisting the EU push for over a decade, and a number of smaller holdouts still sticking with micro-USB.
But you'll note this extends way past phones, including to laptops where there's still a mess of different chargers.
With respect to wireless charging, it makes little difference as long as long as most people still have cables as backup (indeed I've yet to see someone use wireless charging; I'm sure a few more uses it at home, but I for one have zero devices capable of wireless charging; it will not reduce waste anytime soon)
I know for my own use, unnecessary cables and chargers still account for a large proportion of my electric waste because of the frequency of replacement, so for my part I welcome this.
This isn't about solving an existing problem. As you pointed out, pretty much everyone standardized around micro-usb almost a decade ago. That's mostly because Apple launched the iPhone with a proprietary but standard connector (the original iPod connector). So while all other phone makers had a special adapter and cable for every model, you could plug an iPhone on anything that worked with an iPod. Even the original firewire cable from 2003 would work with it.
What this is about is getting reelected and justifying to voters the usefulness of paying huge amounts of taxes to fund an EU-wide parliament. So they manufactured an (easy) problem to "fix". And it's going to be extremely popular since they'll be attacking and regulating "evil foreign tech giants".
It makes charging more user friendly. e.g. just an hour ago my wife asked if she can charge her iPhone with the charger that I use for my laptop and Pixel 4. I had to say "no" - and that's the case even when Apple has USB-C in their laptops, why the odd iPhone (and airpods)?
It is quite pleasing to be able to charge laptop and mobile (and wireless headphones or ebooks) with the same charger.
[0] https://www.amazon.co.uk/EFISH-Multifunctional-Transformer-2...
Compare that with USB-A where even cheap Chinese cables from the lowest bidder usually work (work well enough at least - you might get voltage drop but it will still charge if you leave it on long enough) because the spec is so simple that even the worst manufacturers manage to do a good enough job, and it's something you can trivially DIY if you need to.
Now compare that with USB-C. So many moving parts that can go wrong and so much corners that can be cut by unscrupulous manufacturers. Not to mention that even the most expensive devices (Apple) don't give you any visibility on what type of cable/charger/etc you have even though that information is technically available to the device (that's how it negotiates power delivery) which is extremely confusing even to tech-savvy people.
Should complex things not have a spec?
Compare USB-C power delivery and the 12-pin cable & connector with USB-A's 4 pins and a resistor on the data lines to communicate allowed current draw, or even a barrel jack with the standard 19V ~3A PSU and no negotiation at all. Which one is the easiest to build (hint: one is easy enough to DIY) and which one is more reliable?
In USB-A this was accomplished through a hodge-podge of different resistances applied across data lines, not officially part of the standard but just done by manufacturers. USB-C is a huge improvement on this.
I do agree however that the cable-labelling situation is awful. Maybe some kinda tier system could help. Every charger, cable and device could have a class. The charging rate is the lowest of the three. E.g. a "Class 5 cable will charge up to 200 watts and has a pink end". If you pair that with a Class 2 charger (say, 50 watts) and a class 3 laptop (100 watts) you'll be limited to charging your laptop at 50 watts.
The new rules mention that and aim to fix it by demanding clear labels.
People and companies can screw thing up royally regardless of spec complexity when there's no review/oversight involved. That's not a valid argument.
If you want to force and check adherence to a spec you need to involve certification authorities (TÜV, SGS, UL, etc.) but then widget prices would increase dramatically.
Edit: to address the child comments below: who gets to be the judge of the complexity of the spec? If Nintendo fucked it up but some EE students can get it right through side projects on github, does that make the spec complex or does that make Nintendo incompetent (lacks a HW review/qualification process)?
The spec could be as simple as "white wire goes to positive terminal, black wire goes to negative terminal" and there's still the chance of an implementation fuckup in the design pipeline, especially in large projects/companies with distributed siloed teams like Nintendo due to poor internal communication, if there is no proper internal review/qualification process in the design loop.
Edit 2: I looked at the USB-C charging specs and they're easy enough to understand for any graduate EE and for any company who's had some basic experience with USB as a whole, let alone 100 year old multi-billion HW conglomerates like Nintendo.
IMHO, Nintendo's USB-C charging fuckup is 100% on them. I wish people would stop needlessly defending them here.
Edit 3: Also, what if Nintendo intentionally chose not to follow the spec in order to force the users to use and buy only original parts from them? Either way, incompetence or malice, you really can't blame the spec here.
1) How is it the spec's fault that random OEMs go to extreme cost cutting measures in order to price dump themselves to the bottom by not following the spec? Of course they won't work properly.
But again, for the 100th time, that's not the specs fault that manufacturers actively choose to ignore it.
If a driver chooses to knowingly run a red light, is it automatically the fault of the spec (the highway code) ?
2) You're moving the goalposts. We are talking about USB-C charging spec here that's super easy to follow, and Nintendo didn't, not USB-C docs with display-port and other fluff. So this dock example doesn't apply to Nintendos' refusal to follow the charging spec.
https://www.usb.org/sites/default/files/usb_type-c_cable_pow...
(for an older example without cable ratings: https://www.usb.org/sites/default/files/usb-if_logo_usage_gu...)
It's just that no one cares.
Some vendors now let the USB-IF compliance test most products (Amazon Basics, Apple), but no consumer cares. Even amongst the ones which do certify their product, no one uses the logo.
What is the point of anything then? Most pieces of tech we take for granted are an unregulated bundle of specs that more or less work together with one another most of the time well enough to be valued at several trillions and be in every household.
If you want to regulate and certify every USB-C cable in your household then increase prices would stop the adoption of any such tech and you would then complain about the costs and over-regulation.
The EU is already regulating USB-C into place. How much more regulation do you want?
Let's not let 'perfect' be the enemy of 'good'. Remember 20 years ago when every phone and electronic widget in your house came with its own proprietary cable and proprietary interface and included CD with proprietary Windows-only software to work? Yeah! Lost the original cable/dock with the proprietary 20-pin connector? Good luck with that mate.
Yes, USB-C still has teething problems due to manufacturers cutting costs and fighting tooth and nail against standardization so they can keep their walled garden rent seeking models of the past (remember Sony shoving their proprietary Memory-Stick everywhere despite SD cards having won?), but despite these issues, we've never had it so good in terms of cross-compatibility as we have it today and this push for USB-C everything is a step in the right direction.
And now with the addition of the 48volt high power charging mode it is even longer with more requirements.
The minimum requirements are that you have to support the USB 2.0 protocol:
> While BC1.2 is still supported over USB Type-C because it depends on the USB2.0 lane, a significantly simplified and higher power current capability mechanism is also implemented. This simplified approach involves resistor pull-down/ pull-up relationships. These pull-down/pull-up resistors are connected to the CC wire and the upstream facing port (UFP) must monitor the voltage on the CC1 and CC2 pins in order to detect the current sourcing capability of the down- stream facing port (DFP) it is connected to. This is a substantial improvement over the complicated handshake mech- anisms involved with USB BC1.2.
> The basic USB Type-C current capabilities are Default USB (500mA for USB2.0 and 900mA for USB3.0), 1.5A@5V, and 3A@5V.
* https://ww1.microchip.com/downloads/en/appnotes/00001953a.pd...
(This is distinct from the "fast charging" mode(s?), which does seem to have compatibility problems. But in that case, the failure mode is that device charges slowly, which is probably not a big issue for the kind of small phones/gadgets that the EU regulation targets. The previous standard was micro-USB, which can't do fast-charging anyway.)
[0] https://store.nintendo.co.uk/en_gb/-nintendo-switch-power-ad...
With the switch it's the screwed up USB-C implementation and the fact that you can't use bluetooth headphones (it has BT support, but only for the controllers)
With the DS, the wifi only supported WEP, not WPA, even though WPA2 had been released by the time the DS came out
The Wii famously didn't support HD output.
Multiple devices on one Bluetooth controller have to timeslice in 4 millisecond (iirc) chunks. Audio devices in a high quality mode consume a substantial amount of the overall bandwidth. It also doesn't matter if your packet consumes the full size of a chunk of not, all of them are equally sized. You'd have to do two audio chunks and one controller chunk * 2 controllers to maintain a 60 Hz sample rate on the controllers.
> the EU simply said that "consumers will be provided with clear information on the charging characteristics of new devices, making it easier for them to see whether their existing chargers are compatible.
Which is super disappointing, as the person who wrote TFA clearly didn't read anything other than the press release. The actual supporting documentation is here [0] and says:
> on the packaging or a label, manufacturers would have to provide information on specifications relating to charging capabilities, in line with annex Ia (amended Article 10(8) RED). This includes a description of the wired chargers' power requirements (the text displayed should read: 'The minimum power delivered by charger shall be equal or higher than [xx] watts') and specifications on charging capabilities ('USB PD fast charging' and an indication of any other supported charging protocols).
Which is still not great - this doesn't cover cables for example, and it doesn't guarantee that it will be printed on the device. Here [1] are apples chargers in the UK - unless they're side by side it's impossible to tell which one of those chargers is which, and even at that unless you know for sure one of the devices is X, its' really quite difficult to tell.
[0] https://www.europarl.europa.eu/thinktank/en/document/EPRS_BR... [1] https://www.apple.com/uk/shop/accessories/all/made-by-apple?...
Nintendo will have to get its crap together and properly support Power Delivery, the burden is not on you.
- New, more secure boot sequence
- Updated Nvidia Tegra board
- ~20% better battery life
- Reinforced chassis design
It seems likely that they took the opportunity with Mariko to redesign their charging ICs to be more tolerant. I heartily recommend looking up some of the more subtle differences between the models too, it's really interesting to see how Nintendo updated a mass-market product without anyone really noticing.
As another poster mentioned, however, they will only dock with the OEM charger.
Seems like whatever is happening with the OG switch USB-C implementation it’s not straightforward.
[1] https://switchchargers.com/how-nintendo-switch-charging-work... -- scroll down to "Nintendo Switch Dock"
[2] e.g. https://skullnco.com/collections/nintendo-switch/products/ju... and https://www.gulikit.com/productinfo/506086.html
I don’t recall ever seeing prior USB devices fail at adherence.
The problem is that USB C is a massive spec with a lot of things that aren’t always needed in it (display, pd, high data speeds etc). You can either design your product to implement a lot more things (eg Macs) or skimp out and cause confusion (Switch). By breaking the standard, people effectively have to buy your charger or cables to know it’ll work. If I have to either buy a high end product or buy cables and chargers only from the original brand, we aren’t really any better off with this.
Really? You've never seen a power only micro-usb cable (missing 2 bus lines)? I have dozens from all types of devices that use USB as a charging only connector.
This has been a problem with every USB iteration (hard to have the U in USB if you aren't able to handle a wide variety of applications), but I vastly prefer it to the early 00s when you might have 5 different cables to each "specialty" application.
Afaik if you don't need these you can just implement the parts you need e.g. charging.
I'm sure that's not it. I'm sure it was
"Hey product manager. We can launch in 6 weeks if this port accepts power and connects to a dock, or 36 weeks if we need to conform to standards in section 17, subsection 5 part 41.2B of standard 1120 on European code B7"
"what does <standards> get us"
"Nothing, we don't need those features. Also it'll add $25 to the bill of materials"
"ignore it then, we want to launch sooner and increase our margin."
Maybe apple had it right originally to have “thunderbolt” as a super powerful all-in-one cable (except add power) and we needed a simple “reversible micro usb” for everything else.
Which means 1 spec is not sufficient for interoperability
We clearly need more regulation.
Enforcing USB pd as a standard would be another acceptable one.
I never understood this sentiment. That would be even more true if USB-C wasn't the standard so I don't really understand the complaint. Obviously "same shape" isn't an indicator that it will "just work" for USB-C, so why would we expect that to be the case for anything else with modern complexity?
It would be nice if fits == works but that's just not a world we live in, USB-C or not.
Basically, things that require extra ICs are now being shoved into "one connector for all" thing with no way of telling them apart.
No, that was already not the case with USB 3 devices not working when plugged in a USB 1 slot. Not made easy when some computer or hub have both USB 3 and USB 1 port on the same machine and you must remember the color code.
I recall that one time when I tried to configure the bios of a computer and the keyboard wouldn't work in the bios because it was connected to the "wrong" usb port that was not powered in that stage of the boot
The regulation (I hope) is about actually adhering to USB-C, not merely shipping with USB-C connectors. And the bar to pass should be to be able to use a large stack of USB-C chargers and work.
That's not quite correct. The Nintendo Switch and the Switch Dock works with some Macbook chargers, and all you need to do is read the small print on the devices.
The Macbook chargers list the supported voltages & currents on the outside (in very small light grey text, but it is there), and the Switch has the supported voltages and required currents printed on the back. It's confusing because the Switch Dock needs a different voltage & current than just the Switch itself, but if you read the fine print on the devices you can see if they are compatible.
USB-A has been with us for over 20 years. It's only disappearing because of USB-C, and USB-C seems to have room to grow. I wouldn't be surprised if it will still be the most popular connector in 2035, and not just because "legislation stops innovation".
Making sure there are no weird exceptions to a very good port is reasonable and good.
In any case, you can just stick tiny plug adapters on all your chargers. https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07G54XXZZ/
Your chargers are USB-A, and you can make them usable with an A-to-C cable.
There are no chargers with micro-USB output port (USB never specified such thing). Micro-USB has been designed to make cables essentially disposable (and not meant to be hardwired into any device), because the more robust side of the connector is in the device's port, and the fragile side is in the cable.
In my experience, this wasn't true. I had both a tablet and a phone that had the charging port fail. If I didn't apply a constant sideways force on the cable, it wouldn't charge. Tried other cables to make sure it wasn't a bad cable, but still had the same problem.
https://www.amazon.com/CanaKit-Raspberry-Supply-Adapter-List...
I have several chargers with a brick and a permanently attached micro-USB cable that came with devices. One from Samsung; a couple from Grandcentral; a few for Raspberry Pis.
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=microusb+AC+adapter&t=ffab&iar=ima...
https://www.androidauthority.com/fast-charging-explained-2-8...
So in the end we still have to have multiple chargers, but now we can roll the dice on which one works with or damages which device because they all use the same connector.
I'm not sure what you mean by 'unreasonably non-zero', but I've been sharing chargers between Macbook, XPS 13 and Thinkpad with no concern, + a charger from amazon.
Some charger are less powerful than others, so charge is not always as quick, but in real life it does not matter : it's still charging fast enough in any combination, and for the last year the only reason I have multiple chargers is to have one at home and one at work, but any laptop works well on all chargers.
I have trouble finding relevant information that is not some random dude on a forum speaking very confidently one way or another without much data to back it up, and I don't see why that would cause any harm other than charging more slowly, eventually to the point of discharging if you consume a lot of power (which is a pretty tolerable downside).
I've fried at least one USB-C device, a high-end wireless headset, seemingly by connecting it to a name-brand USB-C charger that had some kind of incompatibility with the headset.
Plus, even among Apple chargers, some USB-C chargers will support fast charging, and some won't, regardless of their rated wattage. Plus some will and will not support fast charging via a wireless charger (either a MagSafe wireless charger or an Apple Watch charger). There are a lot of charging incompatibilities in the current state of USB-C, even among devices from a single manufacturer.
Doesn't really matter. Just charge with any charger that's USB-C compatible. If it breaks the machine just RMA it. It didn't adhere to the spec so file a complain to the EU commission in charge of these charging standards as well.
Wait what was the point again? Ohh E-Waste reduction.
And all I gained from this is that I will have to buy a cable separately from the device itself now.
But hey, at least I'll only get 5 new cables in a decade instead of 10! Such incredible savings.
I think avoiding "innovation" in the form of yet another connector is USB C's mission.
Apple just released a USB C to MagSafe cable, where is the problem?
Lightning isn't innovation it's pure vendor lock in complete with embedded cable chips to enforce it.
Any improperly designed device can damage other devices, suggesting it's somehow particular to USB C is specious.
These issues have evaporated for me in the past couple of years. The only devices that I have in use that are still finicky are Nintendo Switch, and it's my understanding that newer models have fixed these problems, too.
My only complaints are that I wish my MBP would draw 10W from non-PD USB, instead of 5W (not really a USB-C problem), and my kids' laptops that have USB-C ports but don't support USB-PD and only charge from coaxial power adapters.
Now, I feel the same arguments are brought in again. 1) Hinders innovation 2) Lock on a single technology 3) Creates trash by soon obsolete "deprecated" connector types
My bet: 2024 (!) onwards, nearly nobody will be affected by the "downsides".
Safe to say we would probably have standardized on USB-C even sooner had they passed this law for micro-B in 2009.
Supporting this is tantamount to believing that there will never need to be a USB-D that improves upon USB-C, and I just can’t believe that.
This is the part that wears out, and when it does, the port will need to be replaced, not the cable.
My 6 year-old iPhone that I plug and unplug a bunch of times a day still keeps the plugs in very snuggly. They basically don't move. And I've pulled on the connector many, many times, by stepping on the cord and pulling the phone up.
Contrast this with my 2 month-old laptop in which the usb-c cables move around, even though it spends 90% on the time plugged in.
---
Edit: I did have connection issues at one point, but it was due to pocket lint that had accumulated inside the port. It was easily removable with a toothpick, and the connector went back to working like new.
What's so great about it? USB-C is just as easy to plug in and these cables usually last longer. The only difference for me is that Lightning eventually ends up with black pins and I have to buy another cable.
Also, is it really worth the few technical advantages if the alternative is a good-enough plug that works with absolutely everything?
1. I stepped on it. 2. The junction between wire and head broken.
I have more that probably 5 micro b wire failed on the head since I use cellphone. But for type c, it's literally 0.
I've never had a phone with USB-C to compare, but I've had rotten luck with Lightning. I always get that one power pin that blackens and makes the cable unreliable.
I'm just glad USB-C has come along so we didn't do something foolish like standardize on Micro USB - I hate those ports! I recently bought two brand-new BT speakers and guess how they're charged? Micro USB! Grrrrrrr!!!
Basically there will never be a usb-d.
The EU seems perfectly willing to adopt new standards if you look at what has been happening in mobile standards (e.g. despite 3G being standardized we got 4G, despite 4G being standardized we got 5G)
Who will build the spec and research and then lobby Europe to change the law when no device uses it? The marketing of saying “this new spec is better… throw out EVERYTHING” won’t happen.
What will happen is that the hot mess of a market that is the Asian market will grow and change and develop… and throw out cables. And it’ll get better over time while the availability in Europe stagnates.
PS you can clean the blackened pin so it works again.
https://www.zdnet.com/article/heres-why-your-iphone-lightnin...
Except that's basically what happened with USB-C. Micro-B was the standard for the EU, USB-C was developed and got approved, and now it's replacing micro-b as the standard.
Any technological developments in wired charging can be reflected in a timely adjustment of technical requirements/ specific standards under the Radio Equipment Directive. This would ensure that the technology used is not outdated.
At the same time, the implementation of any new standards in further revisions of Radio Equipment Directive would need to be developed in a harmonised manner, respecting the objectives of full interoperability. Industry is therefore expected to continue the work already undertaken on the standardised interface, led by the USB-IF organisation, in view of developing new interoperable, open and non-controversial solutions.
Headphones, thermal printer, neck-cooler, rechargable screwdriver - all USB-C.
What's weird are the few things which don't. Amazon Alexa use a barrel charger. Brand new HP printer has the old square style USB plug. Pulse Oximeter user micro-USB.
So C is certainly getting there. Appearing in cheap and expensive products. And, I'm happy to say, works well. Just needs a few laggards to update!
I've started noticing this recently. It's taken longer than I thought but the only devices remaining I have that I need to search for cables for are my iPhone/Apple Watch/old iPod. Everything else, including laptops, I usually have a USB-C charger already plugged in and ready to go no matter what room I'm in.
It makes sense that there should be a standard for this, just like we do (although it varies by country) for our plugs.
I've got a barely 3-months old Lenovo X1 Carbon (Gen-9) work laptop. A week ago I noticed the battery draining while the power cord is plugged in! Nothing worked: reset via the pinhole at the back, trying out different chargers, BIOS update, charging while the OS (Linux) is shut down, "to eliminate 'rogue' applications". The battery just doesn't charge.
We've got premium support, so a Lenovo technician came two days later and replaced the motherboard. Great! The root cause: USB-C power port got short-circuited somehow. "This is a common problem with USB-C for power ports; I go around replacing 2 motherboards a week," the technician said.
Now, the laptop's new motherboard worked fine for a week ... and I woke up this morning to notice the laptop's battery not charging at all (yes, again!), while the power cord is plugged in. I call up Lenovo, and the support guy confirms: "the power port seems to be short-circuited again, this time let's replace both the motherboard and also the power adapter". FFS, tomorrow morning I have long-distance travel, and I'm left with this bloody brick. Speak of timing.
I want to think this is just plain bad luck, but the Lenovo support forums are full of similar problems, and two other colleagues independently confirmed the same issue. The Lenovo technician blamed this on USB-C. I wish they retained the more robust rectangular power port; but they're phasing them out to comply with EU regulation.
This thread of full of non-sense
> I want to think this is just plain bad luck, but the Lenovo support forums are full of similar problems, and two other colleagues independently confirmed the same issue
Oh no, I have to confirm this too. Had the same issue with my X1 Carbon Gen-9. They replaced the motherboard (and hopefully the power adapter). At least so far it's still working after a few months since repair.
> and I'm left with this bloody brick
Did you know you can charge (or at least power) the laptop via the other usb port, next to the power port? I was afraid to try that out by myself but their support asked me if I can do so and it worked.
I knew, but would you believe: with the new motherboard, even that other USB-C port is bricked, it doesn't charge the battery either. :-( Speak of one-two punch.
Thanks for confirming the original issue. I've been a Lenovo user for 13 years, mostly trouble-free, but this nuisance is incredibly untimely. I've already put in a request for a new replacement laptop when I'm back in 3-ish weeks.
Ie I have company HP laptop with USB-C charging, something aluminium 'elite', tiny and quite powerful for my needs (not in same room as me now). It works like charm, and since its not mine I treat it relatively very badly (no concern for any kind of protection, travelling on vacations full of sand like right now, its laying on the floor so kids play with it, bang on it, I sometimes roll with chair over it etc).
since its a solid 65w charger it charges my laptop, my phone, wife's phone, our powerbank, our headlamps, my vaporizer, both our wireless buds, gopro, camera, and probably some other stuff. The only stuff it doesnt works on... micro-usb.
Its really magical, the simplifying life a bit when usual (annoying) trend is of growing complexity. For once, thank you EU.
I also have a Lenovo X395 laptop this one has the problem that the USB-C socket is not deep enough to snap in. I am hoping it will die before the end of warranty. Because if not, it will die a week after.
At least we can keep the chargers as all our devices will die early because we cannot charge them anymore
Trust me when I say that Apple will NEVER submit to this legislation, they will find every sort of obscure or arcane tricks to comply with it without actually doing it. It would set a precedent that legislating can change Apple's behaviour, which they clearly do not want to give. If they show the EU Parliament it's pointless to go after them, maybe they will not try to dismantle their monopoly on the App Store, which is clearly the next thing they will go after this.
- We already have reliable rumors that next-next iPhone (not this Sept, but next) will have USB-C port.
- Qi is not a standard they control like Lightning either way.
- Portless phone would be very unpopular (no fast charging), USB-C would be very popular. Apple would not choose to be unpopular just to watch the world hate them.
The same Apple which removed headphone jack so they can sell more dongles and wireless headphones?
I can see them making portless phone just out of pure spite (maybe having cheaper version with port and not selling that in EU).
What kind of mindset is this? Sometimes Apple prefers aesthetics over practicality, but they are not a spiteful company (unless you are Nvidia), particularly when it hurts customers.
Apple dropped the headphone port, despite wireless headphones still not being as good as wired (IMHO). This shows that they are perfectly willing to do that which is unpopular.
What a complete waste of energy would that be
Do you have any vague idea how much money Apple makes from Lightning accessories? Every single thing that wants to use Lightning has to pay an Apple tax, and go through an incredibly cumbersome and expensive certification process. Letting that slip away from Apple's control means they lose a bit of control on their walled garden.
Meanwhile, MagSafe is also an environment for accessories they can control, and they can use as a way to extort fees from accessory developers. Apple has only one goal in mind - their margins. Everything they do must be seen in function of that. It's clear Apple is going to remove every single port from the iPhone, they only have to find how.
1. Macs have always had standard ports, such as USB-A and FireWire, and Lightning basically is never used in a master configuration anyway, so it would make no sense to put it on a Mac
2. iPads have just a tiny share of the overall market of iDevices, and they only put USB-C on the most expensive models with the selling point that the port could now be used also in a master configuration, and not only as a slave (and it's advertised as such on their website).
Firewire was also a technical standard but never became widespread; if I recall, it was Apple's attempt to push against the converging industry standards with what they saw as a technically superior solution. But only Apple and Sony ever bet on Firewire in a big way.
If Lightning is never used in a master configuration, how come you can use it to plug headphone into an iPhone? It wouldn't have made "no sense" to put Lightning connectors on Macs (although I definitely agree it wouldn't have been wise and I'm glad they didn't).
MagSafe is another non-standard Mac thing -- which was replaced with USB-C and then came back again, very unusually for Apple.
So, they certainly haven't always have standard ports, and Apple have not always been consistent.
2. You don't need USB-C to have your device act as a host, whatever the marketing material might say. USB On-The-Go has been around for a long time: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USB_On-The-Go The advantage of USB-C is that it gives you access to a wider market of third-party peripherals -- I'd say Apple saw the way the wind was blowing, and decided to sacrifice the control and fat margins you mentioned in favour of a better overall product.
Apple has only one goal in mind - their margins. Everything they do must be seen in function of that. It's clear Apple is going to remove every single port from the iPhone, they only have to find how.
I agree that they love a fat margin, and feel entitled to it, but I don't think that's quite the full story. Maybe I'm buying too much into the reality distortion field, but I think they genuinely believe they make better products due to their unique approach. That involves exercising strict control where they can (walled garden app store, proprietary connectors) and aggressively removing features that 10% of users rely on in order to give what they see as a better experience for the 90% (e.g. removing headphone jack); but sometimes also bending to market forces and embracing standards when they think it benefits users -- sometimes very early indeed. Think of the 2015 MacBook, which launched with just a single USB-C port for everything, when USB-C peripherals hadn't even become very widespread.
The test of all this will be whether iPhones continue using Lightning, or switch to USB-C. I'm very confident that they'll switch, in either the next revision or the one after.
It'll be a painful switch, but Apple is very good at powering through those (ADB to USB, 68K to PowerPC, removing floppy drive, removing CD drive, PowerPC to x86, 30-pin connector to Lightning, removing headphone jack, x86 to ARM). When they make up their mind to switch, they make it happen very quickly.
2. I was there when USB OTG on USB A/B was a thing, and it was _horrible_. The combo A/B micro ports were terrible, and it was rare to find the right cables, let alone accessories compatible with your devices. USB-C has been the first connector that made OTG really a thing, before it was just a crappy experience limited to a handful of devices (Samsung Galaxy, for instance)
> aggressively removing features that 10% of users rely on in order to give what they see as a better experience for the 90% (e.g. removing headphone jack)
I call bullshit on this point. That's simply not true. I do not know a single person that liked or benefited from the switch, except Apple shareholders of course. Everyone, myself included, hates the fact you can't use standard headphones with mobile phones anymore, it's arguably a crappy experience that was forced by Apple and the industry with moronic justifications to hide the end goal to cut their costs and push people to buy more expensive Bluetooth headphones. The fact Apple did that just before releasing the AirPods and after buying out Beats speaks volumes about what their true goal was. It's just as hypocritical and fake as their "green" push is, they are trying to paint their corporate greed as something beneficial for the world, which is outright despicable. I'd rather buy my products from a company that's unapologetically honest with their customers than one that tries to gaslight you.
None of my friends or colleagues care. They use AirPods or wireless headphones on the latest iPhones and are happy with them. Your circles are not representative of the whole population.
I remember using wired earbuds and hating it every time. I don't miss the headphone jack that much. Why would you want to mess with entangled cables when you can just turn your headphones on and have them connect over the air?
Apple would argue that they force users to accept these changes because it makes the product better. You can counter that it's purely to make extra money out of peripherals, but if that's all there is to it, why are Apple products popular? Why do competitors (notably Samsung) keep following their lead on this kind of thing? Is it entirely down to their marketing, or could it be that their products actually are better, at least for some people?
Apple reacting in a petty way not only shows that the legislators were right on the money (while adapting shows they were forced, whether for good or bad) but gives them even more reason to push the buttons further.
Digital Markets Act is definitely getting more fuel and attention after Apple's petty response to ACM's complaints in the Netherlands. [1]
1. https://developer.apple.com/support/storekit-external-entitl...
But it doesn't.
Regulators may "win" a battle. But consumers lose big time. And I don't think bureaucrats should take precedence versus consumers.
I do agree that legislating technology this way is a big mistake on EU's part. This is basically South Korea's ActiveX law all over again, and like South Korea, the EU will eventually be left behind.
Nothing prevailed. Apple and Google dictated the API and the EU countries submitted, because they did not have time to enforce their will.
It is not Apple's, Google's, or America's fault that the EU has become so little innovative, rather hostile towards software developers and entrepreneurs, that they have no power in the digital world. And for the EU it is easier to blame american companies, instead of admitting failure and working towards creating an more enterprise-friendly hub in Europe.
I mean, as others have noted, why isn't the EU regulating the other side of the connector? Why are there 3+ power plugs in the EU? Shouldn't this be regulated first, if the EU's argument of reducing electronic waste be considered? No, those aren't created by american companies.
I'm sick of the EU, its constant attempts to circumvent privacy (such as the current legislation of ending end to end encryption for chats), while obviously lacking in the democracy department (why is the comission not elected?).
Apple may well do what they please but there will be fines, and even prohibition of sales. Because the EU “knows” that it can be done without much burden and “sees” it as a benefit for the citizens. I agree in this case on both things.
As far as I am aware, all the big tech companies that were used as the primary reason for creating GDPR are still doing the exact same things (that people were upset about) they were doing back then (just in a legally compliant™ way now according to "the intent of the law").
Not trying to take a dig at GDPR with this, it definitely made some tech companies to make some small concessions, like being able to export your data easier. But it would be difficult to argue that companies comply with GDPR according to the intent of the law, and not according to the letter of the law instead.
IMO, the only clean solution here is to go with USB-C across the board. But I also have no faith that will happen.
The annex says "Hand-held mobile phones, tablets, digital cameras, headphones, headsets, handheld videogame consoles and portable speakers"
Apple doesn't control Qi.
I charge my phone with a random $5 charger and it works quite alright.
I've actually switched to Macs already when USB-C was introduced (late 2016), so I totally missed the original Magsafe. I recently got a new Macbook Pro 16, which has Magsafe-2. I never used it before and for my use-case I don't see much use for it now either. At least at home and in the office I have external displays, which with single USB-C cable get the signal and charge the Mac. Before it was definitely better than any other laptop charging connector, but advantages USB-C provides overwhelm Magsafe use for me.
I need to work, not infrequently, from the dining table with a laptop plugged into the wall. I have two large boisterous dogs and two not-so-large but still boisterous children. They occasionally tear around the house, and the dogs have snagged a cord and destroyed a laptop by pulling it off the table back in the old pre-magsafe days. Magsafe prevented damage to multiple laptops for me.
While I love the single-cable docking angle of USB-C, I'd give it up for magnets if I needed to. For my thinkpad, I actually have one of those magnetic USB-C cables to use at that table.
The thinnest smartphones on the market currently are all USB-C phones so that does not really seem to be an issue. These are a good 2mm thinner then the thinnest iPhone ever made.
Bingo. It's not the charging, it's the port itself. But the fee and lock-in also apply to data-using accessories.
Wired iPhone headphones aren't compatible with other phones, for example, and if you've purchased (e.g.) an expensive FLIR phone-mounted thermal camera, then you're less likely to jump to the Android/USB-C ecosystem at your next phone upgrade.
How much money does Apple make from their licensing? Point me to even one estimate that shows me the money that Apple makes on the Lightning port licensing, and what fraction of its overall profit, loss, or even revenue, that the Lightning licensing comprises.
The first is size -- lightning is thinner than USB. But other phones have USB-C, so this is probably not that big a hassle.
The second is their customers. For every customer that wants USB-C on their new phone, a dozen more want all their existing accessories and cables to continue to work when they upgrade their phone.
That said it’s moot. I’ve got a mix of everything in my house and some of it won’t be upgraded for a very long time.
(Not to say anything about the veracity of the waterproof argument, just that they make it)
[1]: https://www.macrumors.com/2019/03/29/apple-officially-cancel...
To be spec-conform, you need at least 1 IC. You can theoretically hack a solution together with some resistors, but it's not spec conform. If you need the high-speed lanes, add a mux/redriver to un-flip it.
If you want power delivery (>15W), you need a PD controller and port protection (or a user will fry your data lines when they unplug the connector and put 20V on the data pins). 2 ICs right there, and one of them is basically a microcontroller, so you need to deal with more programming.
If you want alternate mode, you need to implement the entire PD stack and a redriver/mux. That's 2-3 ICs right there that have to work together (so usually a single vendor). And not all of them support alt mode.
Which, ok, fine. I'm not building a cost optimized product, I just want it to work well. Except literally none of the ICs are available. Because USB-C requires ICs for everything, it's all sold out (or total garbage that's not worth designing into a product, or requires vendor support to design the firmware, or or or).
I agree that the whole USB PD stack is way over complicated, I still don't get why the electrical layer and the on-the-wire protocol is so complex. Wouldn't a 3.3 V bidir UART with a CRC at the end do a fine job?
Screenshot from the standard: https://i.kane.cx/EI4HtM
Specifically, the sink has to detect vRd to determine how much current it can actually draw.
E: sorry, to clarify: 2 resistors is fine, but you also need line sensing. So that's at least a few comparators or an ADC or whatever. Or a dedicated IC.
The standard provides a way for simple devices (page 218, PSD), to just draw up to 500mA [0]. But TBH, legacy USB charging is such a mess, I'd just always assume 1.5A and hope for the best.
(for USB 3.0 900mA you at least need a USB Device to detect it, I'm not sure if a 3.0 device is needed).
[0]: 500mA in default current and the other options provide more current.
EDIT:
Mmh, you still need to detect above vRa voltage in "AttachWait.SNK", but you can assume default USB Current after that without specifically detecting it. I think no one cares about vRa.
Still better than USB 2.0 (where without being a USB device you could only pull 100mA) or not much different than USB BC for DCPs (detect 200 Ω or smaller resistor between D+ and D-).
Sometimes it's just fine to yolo it, but it adds to the confusion-- "I plugged in my device and it doesn't work??"
Get a Thunderbolt 4 cable, they can carry Thunderbolt 3, Thunderbolt 4, every USB protocol up to and including 4, DP alt-mode, and 100W power delivery. Moreover, most of them are clearly marked. The Apple cables are expensive, but some other good brands (like CalDigit) offer them at reasonable prices.
I just returned 3 USB-C hubs in a row, one almost fried my computer.
Most USB USB-C hubs (USB-C is only the connector) are terrible. Even many premium brands (like Satechi) often use cheap Chinese reference designs that will fry themselves pretty quickly, cause a lot of interference, and have all kinds of annoying limitations (mostly because they use 5 or 10 GBit/s USB 3 standards).
Since I have switched to quality Thunderbolt Docks, I haven't had any issues.
Do you have a list of quality docks? Or how you determine what a quality dock is?
I think the biggest thing is how much power the dock provides and how much attached devices need.
One thing to watch out for (when you are using a Mac) is to avoid Docks with a Realtek NIC. They use a generic USB driver on macOS that adds CPU load and usually only reaches 700-900MBit. Intel I210 NICs are great, they use PCIe over Thunderbolt and have a native driver.
USB-C is a bunch of specifications that may can be combined or may not. USB-C is only the physical connector. USB-C PD (Power delivery) does support many different modes. There are at least 11 different modes with at least 4 of them are optional. I haven't read the latest version of the specification, but I would bet that there are optionally also some implementation-specific options aka manufacturer-specific. All that combined with the many different cable definitions for the different use cases, makes it for the average consumer a nightmare.
I think this will make cables interchangeable in most cases. Fast charging and fast transfers are nice to have but rarely vital.
I have such cables, which can't be really used for charging as well as for fast data transfer. They are good for my development hardware kits, I have. Because those kits don't have any high power requirements. But I cannot use them to power my notebook.
Do you expect them to follow standards while being impossibly cheap to pay for the licensing of said standards?
No, it doesn't. Almost all my devices (macbook, camera, speaker, phone, headphones...) use usb c pd and I am using the same three cables interchangeably for all of them, no issues.
If Apple choses to intentionally break this compatibility it's a user hostile company.
All passive USB-C cables support PD 2.0 or 3.0, all charging features. The only things a cable needs to need to support PD are:
Vbus wire Gnd wire CC wire Therefore, all USB cables, even the lowest end USB 2.0 cable support USB PD. You don't need an identifier chip to support basic USB PD charging.
Literally it's just the CC wire that goes end to end that enables USB PD charging from one end to the other.
USB PD is supposed to be backward and forward compatible, and a USB 2.0 cable can't actually differentiate itself as a USB PD 2.0 or PD 3.0 cable, since chances are it doesn't actually have an identifier chip. Your basic cable (which the Anker is) should work all the way up to 60W with PPS.
PPS also doesn't matter. A USB 2.0 C-to-C cable is supposed to support PPS.
----- In other words as long as you have any proper usb c cable (spec compliant) and a usb c Pd charger with sufficient power output, everything will work.
> "With respect to radio equipment capable of being recharged via wired charging, the Commission is empowered to adopt delegated acts in accordance with Article 44 to amend Annex Ia in the light of technical progress, and to ensure the minimum common interoperability between radio equipment and their charging devices, by: (a) modifying, adding or removing categories or classes of radio equipment; (b) modifying, adding or removing technical specifications, including references and descriptions, in relation to the charging receptacle(s) and charging communication protocol(s), for each category or class of radio equipment concerned."
Your point isn't wrong, but is is several years out of date: USB-C is already well past the few models to gain experience point and now moving to the late adopter part of the cycle. A phone without USB-C charging is as quaint as a phone with a rotary dial at this point.
It would be a separate port next to the micro-USB port.
The point is that we don't need a new connector every few years for charging a device. This saves e-waste, since the chargers can stay the same. For data, you might want to have a new connector, though.
Right now, the charging speed of iPhone is way less than Android phone sold in China. Here most phones charge at 50W+, some at 120W, several times faster than iPhone. While the limitation is not because of Lightning, it is hard to maintain a straight face when Apple insists that they use Lightning because of technical advantage.
More here: https://www.plugsocketmuseum.nl/EuropePlugsSockets.html
Oh god please don't. Lots of Italian plugs are 10A only, and you would not get grounding by shoving an E/F combo plug into an L socket. This comes without saying that it would probably wreck the shutters in the plug and the contacts inside.
1. The C plug was fine. It doesn't carry more than 10A, and that is fine because it does not support grounding, so it would be unwise to use it for very powerful appliances, but it's well enough for bed lamps and phone chargers.
2. We Italians are famous for finding half-assed solutions to problems, so instead of developing a decent plug we just shoved a ground prong on the C type plug, so the 10A L connector was born.
3. Given that 10A plugs can only carry AFAIK a maximum of ~1500W, the 16A L connector was created as a chunkier version of the 10A one.
4. Given this whole nonsensical situation, companies catering to the EU single market largely ignore the L connector. Every single device sold in Italy either uses the C type ungrounded connector (Europlug) or the E/F "Schuko"-French combo connector.
5. Italian houses have either 10A plugs WITH 10A WIRING or 16A plugs (usually with combo 10/16A plugs, have I mentioned the two sockets are incompatible despite both being L?). This means that F "Schuko" adapters to L are a common fixture in Italian homes.
6. People buy devices with F plugs, which they then have to plug into their sockets using adapters. Adapters can either adapt to 16A plugs, or, unfortunately, to 10A, which is extremely dangerous given that Schuko is a 16A connector and 10A plugs often do not have the proper wire gauge for that. The fact that no Schuko adapter supports nominally over 1500W doesn't help either.
Long story short: Italian homes are full of high power devices, such as microwave ovens, air friers, hairdryers, kettles, ... plugged in 10A wall sockets through adapters that do not allow more than 1500W of power. It's absolutely stupid and moronic. Yes they get hot. Yes they are a hazard.
The solution would be to mandate everywhere the C/F/L combo socket in new buildings, but given that 16A wires are more expensive and the Italian government has been historically extremely pro-business, it will never happen.
This also bans cheap phones like these https://www.androidpolice.com/nokias-newest-android-go-phone...
Even if you do pay, at $3500 for 2 years, spread across millions of devices, this amounts to pennies.
>This also bans cheap phones like these
I'd assume those new phones get a new iteration or 2 or 3 by that time regardless. It tends to go quite fast in the phone market.
Currently they sell the SE, 11, 12 and 13
By 2024 they will be selling a SE, 13, 14 and 15. Will they rework the SE, 13 and 14 to get USB-C? Will they stop selling them just in Europe?
That's potentially a lot of money left on the table.
The phasing in happens by first requiring it for permits for new models. The manufacturers can still build and sell older models. A few years later, the rule also applies to all first registration of new cars, to prevent car manufacturers to avoid the new rules by keeping to produce an older model.
IDK if something similar exists for electric household devices. For the famous light bulb ban, they introduced it via import and manufacturing restrictions, so you could still sell the light bulbs, and still can today, but you can't either build new light bulbs or (legally) get light bulbs from outside of the EU into the EU.
You could do the same for phones, just ban the imports at a specified date in the future so that the hardware can be readjusted in time.
Anyways, this only affects one manufacturer (Apple) and they don't have as much of a market share here as in the US.
Imagine if their revenue drops by 20%...
Why is this so important as to require a large scale device maker to redesign their entire product line, and make millions of existing cables obsolete? Genuinely interested in the reasoning behind this, what problems is it solving?
We've basically set in stone a standard that is so varied that the standardization means nothing. And that's before you get into any component actually wearing out and giving you degraded performance on the device or cable.
EDIT: Guess I'm not allowed to reply to sagarm? That's annoying. But yeah, it's the Leviton one. I love it. Cleans up so many ugly wall warts.
The devices still have to ship with chargers, you still have to find the “right” charger, but now you can’t tell them apart?
My main thought is just that the problem of different chargers is not one I think requires sweeping regulatory intervention; but I’m not an EU voter. :)
I've been able to use all my USB-C chargers for all my USB-C devices. That's 4 chargers and 4 devices.
That's the whole point of USB-C. I don't own a single device that I can't charge with the same 2 cables, to the point where the magnetic cable of the 2020 MBP is stored in its box.
Even if you did. Lightning's been around since 2012. It superseded the Dock connector every iPod and iPhone had since 2003. At this point they are pretty ubiquitous.
> Apple charges license fees on Lightning
This also prevents the mess that is USB-C where vendors don't implement the spec correctly (and brick unsuspecting devices in the process, see Nintendo). Apple can just refuse to license devices from vendors that don't implement the spec correctly.
Sure, but it's not. So this is not smart.
(Some of The early iPod chargers had a Firewire 400 socket.)
You wouldn't real this patter with an iPhone: you can still use the same charger, with Lightning <> USB-C cable. In fact, this is the official cable you get these days with new models.
I was deciding between iphone 13 pro max and samsung s22 ultra few months back to have best possible camera that is always in the pocket. For somebody not in their ecosystem Apple connectors are a massive drawback and one of the reasons I decided against iphone.
[1]: https://www.macrumors.com/guide/eu-charging-standard-proposa...
The devices this covers, those rechargeable by a wired cable according to the EU press release, have pretty much all used USB chargers for a long time so I don't see how this addresses the issue of multiple chargers piling up. At most it addresses the issue of multiple USB to X cables piling up, where X is most commonly Lightning.
Unless they also prohibit selling devices with USB chargers I have doubts that this will stop the bundling. Apple has tried to stop including chargers on the theory that nearly everyone already has a bunch lying around, and has drawn a lot of complaints over that, and fines in Brazil where the government regulators have decided that not bundling chargers with every phone is anti-consumer.
They can do the same for iPhone: one USB-C connector for charging and one innovation connector.
"Any technological developments in wired charging can be reflected in a timely adjustment of technical requirements/ specific standards under the Radio Equipment Directive. This would ensure that the technology used is not outdated.
At the same time, the implementation of any new standards in further revisions of Radio Equipment Directive would need to be developed in a harmonised manner, respecting the objectives of full interoperability. Industry is therefore expected to continue the work already undertaken on the standardised interface, led by the USB-IF organisation, in view of developing new interoperable, open and non-controversial solutions."
https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/QANDA_...
I also found this tidbit pretty funny.
> The legislation has been under development for more than a decade, but an agreement on its scope was reached this morning following negotiations between different EU bodies.
> The EU denies this will be the case, and says it will update the legislation as new technology is developed. > “Don’t think we’re setting something in stone for the next 10 years,” said Breton at the press conference.
I've personally destroyed VGA, PS/2, and ADB adapters by stepping on them in the past. (I've since gotten somewhat more careful, and haven't yet destroyed any USB or Lightning adapters the same way.)
How, exactly, do you propose that they design a port that you can't accidentally crush, aside from something dirt-simple like an 8mm headphone jack...?
UK power plugs want a word with you. Not that there won't be damage, but it's your foot that will be completely destroyed.
Yeah, those things are tanks.
Want to roll back the styrofoam ban too? Lots of new innovative (and greener) packaging resulted.
(you could have just edited your first reply to include the appeal to authority)
> Want to roll back the styrofoam ban too?
That's different because it bans one thing rather than declaring a single material as the only legal one. A better analogy would be if a state passed a law declaring cardboard as the only legal packing material and outlawing everything else. Also, the styrofoam ban is a state law, not a federal law. I don't personally feel strongly about a styrofoam ban, but if your state wants to try that, that's fine with me.
> (you could have just edited your first reply to include the appeal to authority)
Who cares?
Besides the fact that I have a drawer full of usb C cables that have come with other products, I have enough to last me into retirement pretty much.
Whereas every single person I've known who's owned an Apple product has replaced their cable multiple times (heatshrink and or cable coming apart from connector) and they used to get charged $50 for the privilege of buying a replacement!
We take for granted things like common definitions for weights and measures, imagine if “the market” could just decide it didn’t want to use the metric system anymore and invented whatever system it felt like to weigh things.
Innovation has its place, but some things just need to be reliable and well understood so we can move on in our lives and focus on building on top of what’s already established.
Funny to see them go to a "new" standard based on market
I like lighting better (audio latency on lighting is fantastic) than USB-C.
I do remember a lot of companies had to include little adapters in the EU. So it'd be like lighting to some weird urb. Was this to the USB mini spec or Mico USB? I just ignored them and used the chargers and cables apple provided or my usb-a chargers
This does not inspire confidence.
If all you need from the USB-C connection is charging, is OK to implement a 4 pin connection to keep the design simpler and cheaper?
And that literally exists. Most charge wire don't have full 24 line. (Unless it is specifically marked as USB3 compatible)
Furthermore, you need the two CC pins or otherwise you won't get any voltage from USB-C chargers. USB 2.0 data pins are needed for backward compatible charging (otherwise a compliant device could only pull 500mA from a USB-A to C cable).
The spec defines such a receptacle connector for USB 2.0-only support (also including the two sideband channels, but that's only 2 out of 16 pins, so probably not noticeably more expensive).
https://www.wired.com/2010/08/europe-univeral-phone-charger/
What percentage of landfills are phone chargers?
0.01% maybe?
The forcing function of laptops and other hardware needing to work off the common USB-C PD levels will drastically improve the situation. GaN tech is getting cheaper all the time, and the PD chips required to make all of this tech work are super cheap.
Eventually I hope we end up with USB-C-at-the-wall alongside power ports as a standard.
actually, there are huge potential benefits for both the users and the company that launches them. faster charging, better ports, smarter cables etc etc etc
Can a manufacturer be non-compliant and pay a per-device penalty?
This is a positive example of the EU influencing American technology companies.
(I say that as someone considering getting an EU passport though, so I might be biased.)
USB C, like micro USB has that "tongue" piece that has to fit inside the end of the cable which always looks like it could snap off. The Apple connector is just a solid piece that goes in the end of the phone. No fiddly interlock pieces.
Mind you my 7 year old broke the USB C connector on his Switch in much the same way. There's only so strong you can make something that small and dense with contacts.
The reason USB-C has the tab on the device is to have the springs, which are the bits which can go wrong the most, on the cable instead of the device. When they start to become loose, you only have to replace an inexpensive cable, instead of having to replace or repair the device. It also better protects the contacts on both the cable and the device (the contacts on Apple's lightning cable are exposed).
If you have a problem with pollution, then properly cost that pollution on an even basis, instead of picking and choosing deep pockets and other politically palatable targets.
Man, the 2nd amendment is there for a reason.
Lather, rinse, repeat.
1. All iPhones get USB-C
2. Only EU iPhones get USB-C, US sticks with lightning
3. iPhones become portless with wireless charging only
1. Apple
2. Users
3. Developers
so they'll sacrifice developer experience with not a second thought.
https://appft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=...
Didn't USB-C already do that to itself? I suppose that depends on how narrow the definition of "physically incompatible" is. But IIRC you can't buy a perfect do-everything USB-C cable today, because some USB-C use cases are flat out incompatible with others.
The Nintendo switch is a pile of shit though.
They're both equally easy to use, lightning is just slower. Seems like it's just your personal case, I have 0 lightning cables and maybe 5 usb-c, it would be equally a waste to throw them away.
Also, nothing forbids evolution, usb-c evolved a lot already, you just have to make it backward compatible. I haven't bought a usb cable since I got my pixel 3 and everything works just fine
As for evolution/innovation, sure, that's a real downside. Seems like a quite small price to pay though because it is just about charging. And if I understand this correctly, you can still innovate and add Super Charge 3000 to your device, it just needs to have USB C charging as well, and you need to be able to opt out of getting yet another charger with your new device.
As for working on actual stuff: They can do both - Regulating mining would be great, but this is also good.
Anecdotally, while I've had usb-c connectors break off about as often as lightening ones, the lightening cables seem to just stop working sometimes, and I've never had that with even cheap usb-c cables.
We are not most people. Most people get yet another lightning cable with every Apple device when they could just use the cables we all already have for other devices. I also have a bunch of lightning cables because each device came with one, but, at least, they stopped coming with power bricks.
> I am livid that they’d do something like that instead of working on actual stuff like forbidding mining
This is not an either/or thing. Other groups are working on doing that without causing supply chain collapses and crashing economies. It's a very complicated and chaotic system with tons of interesting emerging behaviors.
https://web.archive.org/web/20220607105048/https://www.engad...
The main reasoning for this is to cut down on waste from incompatible chargers. This will bring charging more in line with other standardized products such as AC power cords, twisted pair networking, SD cards, M.2 SSDs, and all of those wonderful things that come from standards that everyone follows.
Can no one continue to sell charging products for stuff that's already out there? Obviously you can continue to support existing stuff. This rule applies to power drawing products, not the chargers (products sold in 2024 must charge from USB-C, but you can continue selling non-USB-C chargers for older stuff already in consumer hands).
Will it stop innovation? Of course not. New innovations can be brought forth in the same way they are with the other standards mentioned above: developed in a harmonised manner, respecting the objectives of full interoperability (in this case led by the USB-IF organisation).
Is USB-C a complicated standard? Yep, but then again most companies manage to produce working and interoperable stuff just fine.
Are there companies that break the standard? Yes of course - there are always bad actors and careless implementations. But consumer laws will prevent them from selling their crap in the European market. This is what standards enforcement is for (the CE marking, for example).
Are HNers going to look for extreme and unlikely cases and anecdata to ride their hobby horses on this? It wouldn't be HN without it!
USB-C is already a standard just like all your other examples. This law forbids using other standards.
> New innovations can be brought forth in the same way they are with the other standards mentioned above: developed in a harmonised manner
I think you are confused about how consumer product innovation happens in the real world. You don’t form a committee and convince them that your new product is better. You bring something new to market and if it succeeds, you make money and gain market share; like Apple did when they brought out Lightning. Even if you are building a new standard like M.2, you are still competing with other standards, all of which can be chosen by your customers as they deem appropriate. By definition it is now harder to innovate on charging cables simply because you can’t try something new.
It is perfectly fine to say “I don’t think we need to prioritize innovation in this sector any more; eWaste is more important than innovation”. I wouldn’t even argue with that claim in the short term. But it’s not credible to deny that this will have a negative effect on innovation. That is always the impact of regulation like this. If nothing else, startups are now forbidden from experimenting with this variable.
AC power cord standards ARE mandatory. The other standards don't require enforcement because the industry has already converged on the standards and didn't need a push.
This will be the equivalent power cord standard for DC devices. However, unlike AC power cords, USB-C also transmits data, and will thus require further innovations (much like the innovations in twisted pair networking).
Will there be less innovation? In a small way, yes, because nobody can unilaterally push some new power cable standard by leveraging their market dominance. But then again, market dominance usually results in protectionism instead of openness (lightning cable, memory stick, Beta, etc), so such innovation would have been a dead-end e-waste producer anyway.
What big players CAN do now is influence the newer standards to adopt their (free and open) innovations, like they do with all other standards out there. The great thing about open standards is that the rising tide lifts all boats.
Why? What consumer friendly innovations in charging have we had since USB C came out that this law would have made illegal if it were introduced from the start?
>That is always the impact of regulation like this.
I think it would be fair to say that if we could point to examples of useful innovation in the past that would have been killed by this legislation. But can we?
Sure you can, because you have to support the standard but Apple could invent HyperSuperCoolRoundedCornerCharger and put it as an alternative, if it charges hyper super faster then the standard the customers will prefer it and buy the super expensive platinum Apple Genuine DRM protected charger and Apple makes money, customers are happy and if Apple wants to drop the standard USB they can just standardize their cool shit and it will become the new standard.
Ironically the mode of experimentation from Apple that you're describing as desirable is the current state of the world, and is the thing that is being forbidden here; this regulation is explicitly targeted at getting Apple to stop using their alternative "HyperSuperCoolRoundedCornerCharger" as you put it, and to change their product to use USB-C.
There's a reason they've transitioned most of the iPads to USB-C.
All that's left is the physical form factor and I'm not sure there's a lot of room for improvement there, especially enough to justify the tons of electronic waste.
We need to stop allowing stupid but loudly screaming minority to make bad decisions.
First this idiotic cookie warning on each goddamn page, now this. Another small step to totalitarianism.
Also purely in terms of usability, the Apple thunderbolt plug is easier to clean and less error prone on insertion as it self-centers.
I think standardization does not harm innovation. With more actors working on the same standard, it can evolve and get better while consumers are able to reuse hardware (here, phone chargers)
Standardization isn't the problem. Enforced standardization is the problem. Standardization is beneficial when done by the industry because it's a collaborative process where everyone works together to create standards that are mutually beneficial. When the government comes in and enforces an already created industry standard it becomes impossible to change or improve it. This has happened in many industries where things are now done "just because" as the law enforced a now very outdated standard.
And no, the government doesn't create standards, they all come from industry originally.
Whilst important, we have done much better to FORCE the industry to provide security support and updates as part of the sale of devices for a minimum of 5 years on all products. This is one of the biggest insurmountable reasons I see for people who don't even want to, to have to upgrade because of the locked down nature of phones/watches/washing-machines/hoovers/etc...
Although I doubt it'll be the EU project to push through something so bold that will have enough of an impact.
What happens when your awesome new product won’t work with mere usb-c? You get to lobby politicians for a decade to update the standard
This is a destructive decision that unfortunately will effectively bury evidence against it, ie all the things that won’t happen because of it
More specifically I would shift from implementation (How?) to actual requirements (What?). The implementation is a decision of the manufacturer. Examples:
* User-replaceable batteries # By Screw? Coin? Flip/Notch on outside? Behind Backcover? Whatever.
* Hardware-maintenance-manuals # Explosion Diagrams? Text? Step-by-Step? Whatever.
* Locally user replaceable firm- and software! # By Thumbdrive? SD-Card? USB-Cable? Whatever.
Historic example. Do we want enforce a specific engine type {turbojet, turbofan, turboprop) on planes or a specific noise level? The later! Similar for the EU-Cookie-Directive. They should have stated that tracking of users is forbidden (What) and not how to handle Cookies (How).How do you do that for a regulation like standardized connectors? Just say you can't use any non-open-standard connectors?
How much money does it cost for the USB-D spec to get approved by the EU if/when that is released? (How much did the USB-C industry groups spend on lobbying to get this done)? This seems like a much less significant concern but I am curious what order of magnitude we are dealing with here.
This legislation would have been great twenty years ago when there were lots of proprietary plugs on phones, but it seems much less substantial of an issue now in my experience.