For now, we'll deal with marketing-ese about how "other CPU vendors have to choose between power and performance" from Apple's head of semiconductor engineering, and posts on this page like the one saying Microsoft doesn't care and Apple's about to take over computing.
And given that there's no way a single process node jump is going to give Intel a 75% uplift in instruction per clock (2 nodes wouldn't give them that either, for that matter), Intel is going to have to clock higher for comparable performance and that's still going to put them behind on power consumption (which is exponential in clock speed).
Which is to say, it's completely untrue that the only reason these chips look good for speed/power-consumption is the process node they're on. Apple came up with a super-wide architecture (way wider than anything we've ever seen in x86-64), and they made it pay off by getting good performance out of a much lower maximum clock, which bought them a ton of power efficiency.
The M1 is a spectacular chip. The M2 seems like a fine iteration.
Whatever your opinion may be about Apple/AMD/Intel. Unfair competition is not good for consumers in the long run.
edit: instantly downvoted. As per tradition in Apple related posts on HN when faced with facts.
Consumers only stand to lose in the long run. Including Apple consumers.
> huge win for consumers
doubt
To me it seems that the problem is not that Apple bought however much of whatever from TSMC, but rather that TSMC doesn't have competition at the moment. Hopefully that changes.
(I do think HN is a bit trigger-happy with downvotes lately. I don't often get downvoted, but sometimes people who reply to me with a different view do, and so they get grayed out and drop in the comments. I used to try to counter that, but my one vote doesn't work for very long, so I mostly gave up. But it's really annoying.)
I get that it's really hard. Like rocket-science hard. But still.
Maybe Musk can start something in the sector.
AMD will have process node parity with Apple this year - Zen4 will be on N5P, as will M2. I doubt that alone will be sufficient for x86 to catch up, they have a LOT of ground to make up.
(this is, of course, the "small" laptop chip for Apple, the M2 Pro/Max will add more CPU cores and a much larger GPU, but you can still extrapolate the performance trends once we see Zen4 and I doubt it's going to be all that flattering. AMD has said "minimum of 15% faster", but even if that works out to 40% on average, Apple just made their own 18% leap, and the current architectural gap is much larger than 22% according to SPEC2017 benchmarks.)
It's not all just "apple wants to go bigger" either - Apple's cores are quite svelte in terms of transistor count as well, they're in between Zen3 and Alder Lake transistor count (this is supposition, but I think they would still be slightly smaller than Alder Lake even if you removed the AVX-512 support from Alder Lake). Most of their transistors go towards a truly titanic GPU, the cores themselves are fairly small (the efficiency cores in particular are impressively small for the performance they give).
And yes, of course "Apple has chosen to target slightly lower clock rates with really high IPC", but that is enabled by design decisions that ARMv8 allows (really deep reorder buffer, really wide decode) that x86 cannot replicate as easily, you can't just triple x86's IPC by targeting a slightly lower clockrate and going wider.
And yes, ARM code is slightly less dense - about 12% larger than x86 when compiling the SPEC2017 test suite, according to the numbers from the RISC-V people. That's not where the difference comes from either, it's not just "high IPC on low density code".
I know what Jim Keller said, and he's right, x86 isn't dead, but it's not ahead right now either, even considering Apple is on 5nm. When AMD is on 5nm this year, we can re-assess and see whether that was the driving factor, or whether there are design reasons as well.
People seem to have interpreted Keller's comments as being "it is physically impossible for ISA to make any perceptible difference in perf-per-transistor or perf-per-watt" and I'm not sure that's a statement he would agree with. A 10-20% advantage to restructuring your architecture in a way that enables deeper reorder and better decoding vs x86, seems like a reasonable premise to me. Especially considering the baseline is x86, the quintessential legacy behemoth ISA. There has been a lot of work to keep it in play, but that means a lot of the "easy tricks" like instruction cache have already been exploited just to get it this far. Surely there are things that could have been done better from a clean start.
Quick note: AMD's 5nm offerings will not be using a big.LITTLE configuration, so direct comparison with the M1 would probably not be very accurate for the purposes of comparing power consumption.
Ok, but the second we start saying Intel or AMD needs to make architectural changes to match M1 performance/power consumption, that in and of itself is a refutation of the GP's argument that the only reason M1 looks good is the manufacturing node. We're admitting that there's an architectural component to its results.
No comparison is ever perfect, you'll just have to take the best data we have and run with it. Complaining that a study isn't exactly perfect is trite, once you get beyond the "junior scientist makes obvious methodological error" tier it's honestly one of the least useful forms of criticism, someone is always going to think it should have been done better/differently (and wants you to take the time and spend the money to do it for them). But science is about doing the best you have and trying to make reasonable extrapolations about the things you can't.
Single-thread benchmarks on big vs little cores will get you IPC figures, and then you can scale those according to clocks you see on full-load conditions, for example.
Or you can simply compare it to a future 13th/14th gen Intel i3 with big.LITTLE, or an AMD quad-core APU. AMD has SMT, that's an advantage, Apple has single-threaded cores but a couple extra little cores, it's similar-ish.
Nothing is ever perfect. You just make do. It doesn't mean we throw up our hands and scream that if we can't be accurate to 1000 decimal points then we can never truly know anything.
(You may not have intended this, so just FYI: it kinda comes off like you're pre-stating that you won't accept the results if they don't come out the way you like, that you'll find some other difference between the two to latch onto. And there will always be some minor thing you can latch onto, no two designs are exactly identical. But that's not really an honest way to approach science, merely being able to theorize some differences isn't useful and if you feel strongly about it then you should do a similar test yourself to demonstrate.)
That is why nobody buys windows based laptops anymore and the macbook air is the best selling laptop
you don't need apple marketing team to see how people are fed-up with hot windows laptops and their noisy fans (and blind btw, pun intended or maybe not lol)
A huge majority buy windows based laptops.
Macbook Air's are the best selling laptop because of the fragmentation of the Windows laptop market amongst manufacturers. MacOS does not in any way make up a majority of laptops.
I get that it is 2001 again and we should all be shitting on MS, but let's try and keep some facts in the conversation.
> I get that it is 2001 again and we should all be shitting on MS, but let's try and keep some facts in the conversation.
That's a windows 11 with snapdragon for you! fanless! ha
Not the person you're replying to but I'll reply: I think the M1 is really nice, although I don't care much for some other MacBook hardware design decisions and I don't care much for macOS either, so I didn't buy one, but I did spend some time considering it and looking at options.
In the meanwhile, my current ThinkPad is "effectively fanless, most of the time". What this means is that as I'm typing this it doesn't need any fans. It doesn't most of the time, even when I'm programming and compile my project (incremental compiles) it doesn't need the fans, and it remains fairly cool as well. With full compiles or some (not even all) games it does need the fans, and that's okay with me.
And this laptop is actually 4/5 years old; I got it "second-hand new". Newer ones are even better. Oh, and the battery also lasts about 15 hours on a full charge, which is not as good as a M1 machine, but "more than good enough" for me.
So "full fanless" would certainly be nice, but in the meanwhile "mostly fanless" is actually just fine.
Also remember that Apple only makes top-of-the-line laptops; if you buy a cheap Windows laptop: yeah, you're not getting an especially good laptop. But if you buy something in the same price range you often (not always) get something much more comparable.
Most of the world is not using Apple laptops and is not going to. The Facebook community around you might, but that's not the entire world. The "nobody" in your list still accounts for what, 90% of the laptop buyers? Even more?
Most of the powerful laptops are neither Macs, as those go to the gaming laptops where - this is a big surprise - games and their performance counts. Apple has no answer there.
Games? the biggest market is the Mobile market, Desktop market is shrinking year after year, it'll become a niche very soon
Ever heard of Genshin Impact? https://gamerant.com/genshin-impact-made-more-money-in-its-f...
And please learn to project a little when you do some analysis, yesterday is long gone, tomorrow is what's going on
And when say nobody, i talk about the people making a deliberate choice, in that group, rarer are the people choosing a windows laptop, other than the people replacing their IT fleets, or your granny picking a cheap laptop because she has no clue what an OS is anyways and everything is pre-installed with Windows, for some reasons ;)
When it comes to projections, the ~1300€ laptops are not going to be the ones taking over the world. Not in any realistic projection, unless the inflation goes to Turkey level.
Every people makes deliberate choice, don't discount someone's choice not being deliberate just because it does not align to yours. I don't pick a laptop for my own self, but a desktop - since I don't need the mobility when I need grunt. There M2 brings me nothing so far.
Your granny might make a more thoughtful choice than you do. She might buy a tool for herself while you're fancying over something shiny. That's not deliberate.
and with Cloud gaming coming, as the infrastructure improves, and fiber becoming more and more popular, that'll allow every kind of devices able to consume intensive games
Microsoft added Android VM support in windows 11 because they know what's going on, they have access to the numbers
Yes, games. Even as a floundering mess, Blizzard rakes in 300-400mm/quarter on a single game that is a PC exclusive, without insane microtransactions/loot boxes.
"In the first three months of 2022, Genshin Impact raked in £450million from player sales"
See also: "how do you provide ever thinner laptops?"
The reason you're so sensitive to fans is because Apple's attention to cooling goes far, far, beyond a joke. Modern processors will throttle at their maximum temperature (typically 100C for CPUs). Apple's approach has always been to depend on that as a cooling solution. People have improved the cooling on the M1 to something in the ballpark of the M1 Pro, and performance lifts to match.
M1 has certainly thrown the whole compute-per-TDP equation into chaos, and you'll definitely see more performance prior to hitting tj-max, but when that comes, performance will come crashing down. They don't have fanless cooling, they essentially have no cooling.
If your workloads don't require extended periods of compute, then the fanless Apples can't be beat. Claiming that the M1 beats x86 laptops across the board is, well, "very uninformed " to say it kindly. To say it frankly, fans of high-end devices (whether Windows or Linux) do get very noisy in the face of uninformed bullshit.
OK, but Apple also makes the MBP line with active cooling too?
Edit: you also get insanely specced x86 laptops that have no business being laptops, so for the few who actually buy those monsters the parent comment is also laughable.