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Comment by black_puppydog | Hacker News Reader

Apart from sharing the opinion here that this is a customer hostile move...

I'm pretty happy that my bikes (MTB and Road) have zero electric components (not even light if I don't strap it on) and I want to keep it that way. I have yet so see an electric part that I need or that even just provides me with enough benefit that it's worth the hassle of freakin' firware updates. Much less having a CAN bus on my bike? is this only for electric bikes or also for gears? I'm confused...

Anyhow, I always thought that running a bike repair shop might be my plan B for when I finally get fed up with computers, but I recently realized bikes are now computers with wheels, just like cars and fridges and toasters and door bells... So I'm looking for a new plan B.

FWIW, just as with fridges and toasters, I think this is a move in the wrong direction. It increases CO2/pollution footprint and reduces lifetime. And as we see here, it opens you up to a whole new class of customer abuse.

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I was pretty anti-electronic shifting on my bikes...but once you have it, it's hard to go back. The automatic derailleur tuning to always have snappy, responsive shifts it pretty amazing. And then not having to change cables out is a nice bonus, though not a deal breaker. And even the aesthetics of a cable free bike begins to grow on you. luckily, battery charging is pretty simple, and I've been always having to charge a bike computer for the past 15 years anyway, so not a big deal to plug it in every couple of month. (This is coming from someone who used to single-speed mountain bike a lot, for the "simplicity" and because I was lazy to have to maintain much on my MTB). I'm kind of looking forward to a day when they get the internal hub thing dialed in and lightweight and can handle a lot of torq and not have the drag penalty, etc....

That said, I don't use any integrated shifting->head unit functionality. Not really sure what someone would use it for other than checking battery levels? Which is super simple to see on the hardware itself. And which is easier to just get off my phone.

Also, firmware updates are typically pretty simple these days due to the pretty decent phone app support. I've done firmware updates on both a Wahoo computer and SRAM shifting, and it was really straightforward, and never for a critical item, yet, only to get more features (though I'm not an early adapter in any of this). I guess I'll find out mre about Di2 specific integrations when my next bike arrives...

Electronic shifting, while nice, is inferior to continuously variable transmission.

It's that nobody has managed to get that done cheap and reliably - and it'd have to be inside a gear hub too.

It's been done reliably, just not cheap. Mitsubishi with its v-belt has probably the cheapest somewhat reliable version, others less reliable based on expanding chain. Enviolo also makes one of these groupsets.

Very new tech in bikes though, if used at all. Ancient tech everywhere else, and can be done even better than these attempts.

One thing I noticed after cycling across North America on a $500 hybrid and then Colombia on a $200 utility bike was that there is a wildly different class of cyclist that rides with computers and carbon fiber and shiny jerseys... They were as baffled by my setup as I was by theirs. It's almost an entirely different category of transportation. Or perhaps it isn't so much a form of transportation for them, it's a hobby - they often drive their bikes to the place they want to ride instead of just riding the in-between.

I imagine there is room to cater to both types of cyclist. Perhaps it was a self-selecting group for me, but I found every mechanic I visited on the road to be most busy with repairs of low-tech gear. It seems to me that low-tech bikes will continue to make up the long tail for many years to come, even if catering to those customers is less lucrative.

Yeah, there's a difference between utility riders and hobby riders. You wouldn't be able to keep up on my Saturday rides on a hybrid unless you've got world-tour legs. The riding position and gearing are just not intended for go-fast go-far riding.

You don't really even see many hybrids on large-scale charity rides, at least in the US. And yeah, quite often people do load up bikes to drive to a ride. I guess for transportation riders this sounds weird, but if you live in location A and the you want to do a group ride at location B that's 20 miles away (not unusual in a big urban area), then I'm not sure what else you'd do.

I'm likely going to a ride out in the southwestern suburbs here in Houston on Saturday, for example. The start is 23 miles from my house, and there's not a great cycling-friendly way to get there, so I'll load up and drive.

I do share your concern about long-term use. We're far enough into the electronic shifting era that early systems are falling out of the support window. Shimano's earliest Di2 systems were only 10-speed, for example; I imagine finding replacement rear derailleurs for that system is nearly impossible now, but OTOH lifespan of a rear derailleur is pretty long.

The version of SRAM's eTap on my bike is 11-speed; it's been updated since, so new bikes come with a 12-speed version called AXS. I don't know if I could easily get a replacement derailleur for mine, but TBH I also wonder that about the mechanical Ultegra derailleur on my other road bike.

Heh, I got an all road bike mostly because of the annoying headwind and the fixed hand positions on the hybrid.

You can usually find older mechanical parts on ebay or even NOS or just use a newer Ultegra or 105 if it's still 11 speed.

I'm still on mechanical parts, the all road bike is on 10 speed GRX.

Mostly never drive to ride, only if I have to ride more than 50 km away and the route is bike hostile. People drive their mountain bikes to the trailhead in my area though.

I also never race. What I sometimes do is randomly pick some roadies and try to keep up with them. What actually happens is ending up keeping up with some girl on a nondescript hybrid who has dropped the roadies.

Yeah, me either. But the city I live in is geographically huge (Houston), so if I want to ride with Group X in a given suburb, it's gonna involve a long drive first.

OTOH, most of the time I can't be arsed to do that. My "home" groups are all inner-loop rides that I can ride to (< 5 miles from my house).

That said, if I'm looking for gravel, the best sets of gravel roads are all at least an hour from the city center. Same goes for the best MTB trails. It is what it is.

I don't think my city is quite as hostile as houston but is in the same class. I'll ride 20 miles to the start of a ride pretty often, or sometimes take the bus if the route lines up.

This is very common in urban fixed gear culture, but our rides tend to be small and ad-hoc compared to the big organized road bike ones. I've done those a few times and was actively made unwelcome so it's not particularly surprising it's not extremely on your radar. Nonetheless my city has an active community a couple thousand strong that would consider it unusual to drive to a ride.

>I'll ride 20 miles to the start of a ride pretty often

Given that weekend road rides here often start at 0700, I'm absolutely not gonna do that. ;)

And don't get me wrong; Houston isn't nearly as hostile to cycling as it was 20 years ago. We just made the top 50 cities for bike-ability (#29!), which is recognition of the improvements we've been slowly making -- protected surface lanes are part of that, but the BIGGEST part is the large-and-growing system of trails along the bayous, some of which mesh in with rails-to-trails initiatives.

You can ride for hours on these trails with only minimal interaction with conventional streets, and they're laid in ways that make commutes viable for lots of people.

https://abc13.com/houston-biking-bike-friendly-city-bikeabil...

> You wouldn't be able to keep up on my Saturday rides on a hybrid unless you've got world-tour legs.

I would easily, using my grandfathers bike and <$1K aliexpress electric bike conversion kit.

I don't think it's as binary as You make it out to be.

Just look into the ultra distance / bikepacking community. It's pretty varied when it comes to both frames and groupsets. Specially once You get into some more extreme events (e.g. Tour Divide for MTB or TransContinental for more of a road stuff, but the scene is growing pretty fast these past few years).

Personally, I'm on a 2018 steel Kona Rove (~1200Eur bike back in 2018) that I'm currently upgrading to an electronic groupset with hydro brakes. Reason for that is simple hand fatique / "cyclist's palsy" over long distances.

I also have a head unit, simply because of the GPS track that I usually try to follow. Gearing info is a bonus, but knowing the state of battery is pretty useful.

I think the kinds of people who are in a "community" is exactly the kinds of people who I would classify more as hobbyist riders. I encountered a lot of them along my travels, because I would follow random rail trails and relatively easy singletrack, then I'd meet these guys who were using a GPS and ultralight camping equipment and tires twice as fat as mine. They were amazed I could even get on the same trail they were on without any special gear in particular. No doubt, they probably traveled twice as far as I would in a day, they perhaps never got off to push up the very steep sections, and I'm sure they never had to backtrack like I did, but eh. For me I was happier to have spent around $1000 on my entire setup (including tent and sleep system) because it left enough money over that I could keep traveling for months. It's just a different way of looking at your bicycle.

With regard to the "cyclist's palsy", that was the injury that surprised me most - I was expecting to get sore legs, not hands! I found a pair of gel gloves helped a lot for cycling on terrain where I needed to keep my hands on the handlebars, but whenever I was on a flatter surface I just changed my position to lean on the bars with my elbows. Same thing when I got a bad neck crick, I just rested up for a day or two and then changed my riding position. I'm sure a better or more personally-adjusted bike would've been way more comfortable, but it wasn't impossible to ride long distances without it.

I think a lot of the specialized equipment is more about optimizing away inconveniences, which is great, but it's not really necessary outside of a race or "keeping up with the group" situation. If you want to tour solo, it's perfectly possible to just make do with whatever junk bike you have access to and adapt your route and behavior to the tools you have. I think when you start spending significant amounts of cash money on optimizing away the inconveniences, that's when you have entered a different class of cyclist. When you go to bike stores it often seems like all the cyclists are of that class, because all of the equipment for sale seems to be geared to them. But in the mechanic shops, I personally found it to be more balanced in the other direction. I guess there is a really large group of people who never go to a bike store and just buy department store bikes or reliable and easily-maintainable second-hand gear that the hobbyists have moved on from.

I get Your point with the equipment quite well. I started cycling in a post-Soviet country in the 90s. Equipment prices were a major concern, so we reused what we could. My first trips were with paper maps in plastic folios...

These days, having a reasonable job / salary, it's a trade-off in which I have much more of a choice.

GPS / head unit is a mean to have the overall route visualized. Can You substitute by a printout of major cities / crossroad names as an itinerary? Sure. Been there, done that too. Is the GPS worth 200Eur for me? Yeah, it is, just by the time I save not having to fiddle with maps on every stop.

When it comes to palsy, there isn't one silver bullet to solve it all. It's much like any RSI in that respect. Body position, muscle conditioning, stretching, general ergonomics. The electric shifting is just one of them (definitely not the first on my list). But since the cost of getting it wrong is maybe a month of limited fine motor control of my hand(s)... I really don't regret spending an extra few hundred bucks.

Does that mean I have bulk discount at Rapha? Hell no.

That's what I mean by things being less binary than "cheap mechanical bikes" vs "expensive carbon / electrical / Rapha jerseys". I know that there are plenty of people who fit one or the other case, but there's also quite a few of us who are somewhere in between.

If You'd like, maybe try checking out "Path Less Pedaled" (a youtube channel). Clickbait : "What You will see may surprise You!" ;-)

I found that OSMAnd~ and BRouter was a good middle point for accessing detailed offline maps and getting route suggestions. At first I thought I might want to mount my phone on my handlebars, but I couldn't find a cheap holder so I just left it in a bag and pulled over every now and then to consult the map. Convenient, since that was usually a good time to have a drink of water too. Plus it saved battery, which was useful in remote areas where there was no electricity to recharge at the end of the day.

To be fair, I also work in the tech industry and could afford snazzier equipment, but I leaned toward keeping everything cheap and cheerful so I didn't worry too much about it getting stolen in town, or busted up when taking some questionable cross-country "shortcut". At the end I donated all my gear to a local co-op, then bought a new bike in the next country, so it also helped me feel more free and not bound to a pricey piece of hardware. I feel like spending money makes you need to spend more money - now you need a better lock, now you need a storage unit, now you need to take your bike on the plane etc. For me that's just more stress that would get in the way of my goal, which was to travel carefree.

I get your point about the utility of electronics, though. I'm not anti-tech, I guess I just tend toward cheaper and simpler solutions unless there is a very strong motivation. I don't think I'm especially unique in that sense - I think a lot of people (even those who own bicycles) would be surprised to hear that some cyclists nowadays are using electric shifters! I'm sure at some point the tech will trickle down to the mainstream, but in the context of this thread which was about someone thinking of retiring to become a bike mechanic but worried it'll just be like retiring to do the same tech job they just left... I think that future is still far enough off in the distance that it's not something people who are thinking about retirement at the moment need to worry about.

I’m so used to the idea of electronic shifting now that it no longer seems an outlandish idea.

Other oddities include bike radar (to warn about cars approaching at speed), electronic pedals (power, pedal stroke and cadence) and electrically heated socks and gloves.

All this stuff is useful and not that expensive if you ride regularly in all weather.

Perhaps I misunderstood, but how can cycling across North America be just transportation and not a hobby? Would you have used, say, a car instead if you had one?

There are many shades of bike nerd, but in my eyes those demonstratively rejecting the tech side don't qualify any less. Take Sheldon Brown for example, he sure would have nerded with the best of them, and tech-rejected with the best of those as well.

I wanted to go on holiday to places I had never visited before, and places where public transport does not go, so I just got on my bike and went there. I don't own a car, but even if I did I don't think it would have been able to take me to all of the places a bike did. Still, at the core my hobby is traveling, not cycling.

Best possible reply, no doubt about that.

Not Just Bikes touches on this in a video of his - how he's not a "cyclist", despite riding his bike a lot, and how the majority of his fellows in the Netherslands aren't cyclists either. He explained that they use two different words for the two groups, "fietser" for the everyday cyclers, and "wielrenner" for those who do it for sport or enthusiasm.

Yeah reading some of your sibling replies also made me think of Not Just Bikes. But rather the "Why Dutch Bikes are Better (and why you should want one)" video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aESqrP3hfi8&t=488s

Note the timestamp. :P This was literally the only time I had heard the word "hybrid" when discussing bikes. And it's not like I'm a stranger to bikes; I've done virtually all possible repairs one can do on a fully mechanical one at some point.

As a fellow <$500 cyclist I love these spandex cyclists, they move to the next shiny thing and unload their hardly outdated gear for way under retail just to get rid of it. Before the pandemic and all the inflated prices I was able to snag a beauty dura ace roadie from a guy who was moving in on the gravel bike craze for a few hundred dollars. If I parted out the components alone on that bike I'd be in the money, not including the frame.

I'm pretty sure the top five finishers in last year's Trans Am Bike Race were all running Di2. The elites in the ultra-endurance self-support races are probably the hybrid rider type of the two groups of cyclists you are talking about here.

Going to have to disagree. Electronic shifting is definitely not a move in the wrong direction.

I used to be in in the camp where I thought electronic shifting was a gimmick. I got a bike that happened to come with di2 and its simply amazing. The shifts are responsive and clean. Adjustments are hardly ever needed and if you do, the process is beyond quick and amazingly accurate. I don't need to test shifting it through all the steps. Do you need it on a commuter bike? Definitely not but for a hobby bike (road cycling, gravel, mtb) its a really nice to have feature. Since you are already confused I would put you in the commuting territory (maybe unfair) which makes sense, its not really a useful feature in those cases. These have been around for a while and in the past few years cheap enough that it becomes a nice upgrade for hobby users.

Unless we hit mass extinction there is no way to stop progress. Humanity is going to continue to innovate and create. Sometimes those things are totally unnecessary. We should be looking to the future as a beacon of hope. Not trying to argue that we should not be mindful of our level of consumerism BUT humanity is going to keep innovating and lets look to the future that we will solve problems. Not that we are going to move back to an agrarian lifestyle. These devices most likely have an increase footprint, you now have a small motor and battery compared to a cable but the lifetime of the product I think is on-par or increased. Better shifting means longer chain/chain ring life.

I feel similarly about computers on bikes, even though I've had them for years before ditching them.

There's another facet to the problem of bike computers and I don't know if others feel this way but for me at least quantifying the time on the bike distracts from the joy of riding. Every time I turned on the bike computer it felt like I was "time-trialing" against myself, my previous rides, and randos whose stats I saw on Strava. It started to really make me miserable especially because as the years passed my "performance" more or less continuously degraded.

I feel differently about electronic shifting, though I probably will never experience it as my bike still has 2000's "vintage" Campy 9-speed and I see no need to ever change that unless I wreck it. The Shimano alfine internal hub has some models that use electronic shifting. It might be good on a utility bike-- if it's easy enough to deal with.

For some reason this feeling you have about GPS ride data reminds me of people who leave their phones home because they don't want to be bothered (or who otherwise hate their phones).

I've never hated my phone, or deliberately left it behind, because I've also always been 100% willing to ignore it if I felt like it. The phone works for ME. It's not a tether, and I don't really allow other people to treat it that way.

I always use a GPS (these days, a Karoo) because I freakin' LOVE the data. I know when I'm stronger and when I'm not, but I'm also a 52 year old dude with delusions of athleticism; fast for me is not fast for everybody. Mostly, I just love to see the miles pile up, I love to see my heat maps ("where'd I ride last year?"), and I love to be able to see my route so I can go back and look at a map and figure out where that neat house was, or that restaurant I wanted to try, or whatever.

I realize it's not always a choice, but so FAR at least I've been able to avoid letting the data part take over in a toxic way.

Re: your bike, there's a lot to be said for "if it ain't broke..."

You can use an old style computer: speed, time, distance. No internet, nothing else. The ones with 7 segment LCD digits. They are cheap, battery lasts years and you still get the information that matters most.

For me the information that matters most is subjective: how do I feel? What is my output? Do I feel that my pedal rotation is too fast or too slow? Do I feel fast? The one exception is when there's a strong headwind, for some reason I find a velocity display to be very motivational. Distance is useful sometimes. But everything else is distraction.

Its bewildering all the consumer products that go on to track things like watts, etc. I played competitive sports in school and we never bothered with anything like that even if it was available. You run until you are exhausted then you run some more. Same thing with a bike ride if you are trying to put work in imo. Want to train for hills? forget the Peloton, just go and ride up some hills until your legs are cooked, and next week you will be able to ride longer.

Yeah for me power & heart rate are far more important than any of those metrics. Once I started paying attention to those two metrics my biking ability increased significantly.

The ability to do structured intervals on my bike with a computer has completely changed the way I train. I cannot ride to an RPE, I can only ride to a power target for an interval. I'd probably be better at sports if I could do the former, but it'd take me forever to get that ability.

FWIW, the electronic drivetrains are superior in just about every performance metric, aside from needing to be charged every few weeks. You might not want an tablet computer in your refrigerator door but electronic bike shifting is more akin to going from carbureted to fuel injected engines, it is the more reliable and tunable of the two options.

Long time cat3 here.

This simply isn’t true, across the board they are heavier. Satellite shifter are wonderful, but that’s not a performance metric. Also, fwiw, races have been lost due to shifting power being out and being stuck in a gear. Rigo Uran stands out, a few years back at the Tour.

I’m not a hater, I have some electronic shifting in my stable.

Editing, I was misremembering my gruppo weights, they are on parity.

> Also, fwiw, races have been lost due to shifting power being out

In addition to a mechanical now one might have an electronical. I hate tuning my mech shifters, but Di2 cable routing inside the frame, seatpost batteries? No thanx. I hope it has improved since the seatpost battery days.

Also that problem a few years back in the Tour was when the tech was new, wasn't it? Don't hear as much about that as much anymore. Flat tires are still far more common.

Has no one snapped a mech shifter cable in a race? (I don’t follow the professional racing.)

Granted, maybe I'm better at keeping up w/ my cables than most people, but it's not like my mechanically shifted bikes are ever bad at shifting....and "charged every few weeks" is a big "aside"...unless they make a battery that can be charged in about the same time it takes to pump up my tires, it's an extra cognitive load to keep track of the charge vs. just hopping on the bike and riding.

What's not reliable and tunable when using classic, cable operated gear shifting? I'm all ears, since my offroad bikes are usually getting thrown around a lot, are usually dirty and covered in mud... and gear shifting just works, no need to charge anything and require some adjustments once per year...

I understand that some people get excited about just any $shinynewtoy but unless you're in a position to take measurable performance gain out of it... it's really just a $shinynewtoy. There's a lot more performance to be gained with improving the rider, losing weight, etc.

Or maybe just stop being obsessed by specs, performance, results, comparing oneself to others and just start to enjoy riding.

If you're only adjusting your cable-pull drivetrains annually, you're getting off easy!

Once you ride electronic shifting, it's hard to go back. It's really nice, really stable, and on the whole I've had much fewer issues with eTap than I had with mechanical Ultegra.

> on the whole I've had much fewer issues with eTap than I had with mechanical Ultegra.

Which might say more about Ultegra than the overall question of cable-driven vs. electronic shifting.

It absolutely does.

It says that cable-pull systems require more (and more intense) maintenance than electronic systems do.

I dunno. Maybe this is true for off-road bikes, but I have basically never done any maintainance on my (numerous) cable-pull systems after they get through the cable stretch phase.

All of mine are road.

My old 9-speed bike is rock solid, but I ride it rarely (utility purposes, basically).

My 11-speed mechanical bike needed adjustment probably 3-4 times a year (and on one of those occasions it'd be time to swap out the cables). Until I upgraded the shifters would eventually "eat" cables (well, on the right side anyway) and strand me in the lowest cog (Ultegra 6800), which was a huge hassle.

My 11-speed eTap bike asks only that I charge the batteries periodically. In the 2 years I've had eTap on that bike, I've spent MUCH less time futzing with the drivetrain than I did when it was mechanical Red, or than I did when I rode the Ultegra bike full time.

Electronic shifting never has to be tuned, that’s the point. It tunes itself so you always have clean shifting, no grinding chains.

Have you ever ridden a properly built bike with a campagnolo group set? I've gone 15+ years on both my carbon tri bike and custom Ti road bike (both with Campagnolo Record) without ever tuning it (past the first 50-70 miles, thanks cable stretch).

Yes I have.

I have a couple of Campag equipped bikes and that’s not my experience.

Mechanical Campag is not as reliable as Di2 or Campag EPS IMHO.

There’s not a huge amount of tuning required but it is definitely still needed and you still need to replace the cable outers as they ware.

They don’t stretch by the way, that’s a myth. The force required to stretch a woven cable is massive. It’s just ferrels shifting on the cut ends of the outers.

Sure, but now you're talking about a group set that's more expensive than most electronic shifting sets. I had 15 year old bikes that were great, but I don't have the irrational hatred for electronic groupsets that most of the commenters here seem to have.

I don't hate electronic shifting. I don't like the innacurate disparagment of an older, simpler, generally more reliable technology, even if it is possible to name some benefits to the new stuff.

Is it really that hard to believe that mechanical shifters are less reliable than electronic ones? I've lost count of the number of cables my shifters have eaten over the years. We're talking about a clockwork-like ratchet handling a cable under many pounds of tension going through many twists and turns, moving hundreds of times per ride, and very hard to access for maintenance. To me it's pretty clear that regardless of Shimano's mistakes, electronic shifting is the way forward.

I've never had a shifting cable break on me (despite being an ultra-marathon and touring cyclist for 20-30 years, bike commuter for 15+ years, and more). I don't know what you mean by "very hard to access for maintenance" - the most maintenance I ever do is maybe add a few drops of lube inside any able housing once every few years. The cable and ratchet do not really interact with each other.

Electronic shifting involves non-user-repairable and definitely not-on-the-road maintenance, which for me personally is a negative (even though it is true that I would likely not be able to repair a cable issue on the road.

Ultegra and Dura Ace DI2 is expensive. Vs. the cost of Campagnolo Veloce/Athena/Potenza or even Chorus. And ironically, you could get Campy easier during the pandemic than anything Shimano....

I'd love to understanding how this auto-tuning works. Could you ELI5 or share some resources? Thanks.

There are different versions out there so I don't know if my statement is globally accurate but I would not call it auto-tuning. But for me the tuning process is magical compared to mech gearing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nBIXq82M_oU

TLDR: You shift to the 5th ring, put it in adjustment mode, now each click is a microadjustment something like 1/10 or 1/12. You adjust until the chain begins to rub, then back it out I think 5 clicks and you are done. That single adjustment means you can shift across all gears.

Electronic shifting is actually pretty great. I get that it's not something everyone wants, but you owe it to yourself to give it a test ride before you dismiss it entirely.

It's fast, it's always precise (never drifts; no cables to stretch), insanely stable, requires virtually no effort to shift, and (at least for me) has provided a more reliable platform than cable-pull Ultegra was. The mech system was prone to alignment issues, cable issues, etc. With eTap, I just charge it every few weeks and I'm done.

Also, re: consumer abuse, read the linked article. Shimano are only able to do this because their connectivity is proprietary, apparently. More modern systems rely on open standards, apparently.

IMO the bicycle was perfected 20+ years ago

There is nothing left to be improved, only gimmicks with aggressive marketing

Just be happy with the bike you have, and ride

There have been a number of transformational things in the last 5-10 years that are far from gimmicks. Wider tires on road bikes. Disc brakes for cx and mtb. Dropper posts and 1x drive trains on mtb. Cycling is rife with orthodoxy that begs to be challenged.

I'd throw tubeless tires for MTB and gravel into that group.

Disc brakes were available in 1975, wide tires before that. Dropper posts I consider to be a gimmick. 1x drivetrains do have some drawbacks, but I consider them overall to be a good improvement to the simplicity of a bike so I will grant you that.

Dropper posts are one of the most helpful pieces of equipment you can put on a mountain bike. It completely changes how you ride.

If I gave you a hardtail with a traditional post, then the same bike with a dropper, your opinion would change in minutes.

The real utility of the dropper post for me is in climbing.

On XC courses I would set my post height at some compromise height, like I would on a CX bike. I’d always feel it in my knees on the climbs though when it was just a bit too low.

Now it’s perfect for decents and for climbs. Such a useful addition to an MTB.

Even being able to adjust the height without the bloody thing twisting from the centre line is a win for me. :)

Back in the early-mid 80s, we used to race on MTBs with quick release on the seatpost clamp, and precisely the right lube to make sure the seat would drop on demand. That didn't deal with the "how do get it back up to the regular height", but before the 90s rolled around there were already several spring-based solutions to that. Dropper posts work better, but they are not a new idea.

Yeah absolutely. Dropper posts are a total game changer, don’t know how you could think they’re gimmicky

> Dropper posts I consider to be a gimmick.

I can't possibly see how you make this case. I just got a new bike and the dropper was definitely the part I was the least sure I'd care for, but the benefit was immediately obvious on the first ride. Being able to pop the seat up with the press of a button when I started a long climb was amazing.

Yeah, definitely for wider tires.

1.25in (32 mm) and 1.5 in (38 mm) tires were pretty common on the "sport touring" category of 10-speeds from the mid-70s bike boom to the early 90s or something like that.

Then marketing decided that everyone, even casual cyclists, should aspire to ride on "racing" road bikes with 23 mm (or even 21 mm) tires, even if the aero and acceleration benefits really didn't make any sense for them.

Really happy that wider tires are making a comeback and that the "gravel" category is in many ways a comeback of sport touring.

"Dropper posts I consider to be a gimmick." that's a pretty bold opinion. Might say more about the types of trails you ride than anything. Sure, you don't need a dropper post for a lot of simple beginner trail riding, start adding fast, technical descents with drops and such....that you also need to climb to, it'd farfrom a gimick. It allows you to have a fun enduro bike that you can climb comfortably in, and then descend like a wild-person on for maximum fun.

Not just any disc brakes, hydraulic ones, at a competitive price and weight. They are so much better than the old caliper brakes it’s silly even comparing them.

Suspension have received lots of improvements, both features such as lock-out, and also generally in terms of better properties, geometries and availability. Especially when looking at the rear frame. Forks are still mostly just forks :)

Finally you also have overall build quality. A mtb from the last decade just feels more rigid and lightweight, you get a sense of confidence the moment you grab the handlebar, whereas 20y ago shifters and handles have that flimsy feeling to it. Warped wheels and flat tires is also much less common problem today.

I just bought a bike with a 1x12 drivetrain and I’m quite enjoying it.

If I may inquire, as someone curious about 1x's, what do you like about them over 2x or 3x?

Did you put the 1x on a road bike, or something or other?

I'm not into racing, but I like going hard and fast (relative to my fitness), and find that I don't really care about cadence, but I do like range and minimalism. Makes me think a 1x, even on road, would be great for me, even if I'd keep my 2x's, since they work perfectly fine. Only if/ when the components wear out, maybe I'd do the 1x switcheroo.

One less derailleur to adjust or have fail, so less maintenance.

No worries about chain angle in certain gear combinations.

Front chain ring can be cheaper/more durable/flippable because it doesn't need ramps/pins/grooves.

I did a 3x8 to 1x8 conversion on a hard tail mountain bike I was commuting on a while back (~8 years ago). There was some messing around with chain line, but over all a simpler setup when I was done.

I'd bet it is even simpler to get done now.

Funny enough cross chaining on 1x tends to be worse if you want to get enough range out of the back (1x12/13). That combined with how thin chains are getting to accommodate the big cassettes makes me feel like the limit of 1x will be reached soon.

That's probably true.

I stuck with 8 back then because it's good enough, and the more thin and precise things get, the more expensive yet less tolerant of road salt they seem to become.

2x13 seems like more ratios than I'd ever need, but who am I to say that applies to everybody?

Dang. That's kinda of a big deal...

Kinda crazy that people are vouching for 1x if cross-chaining is an issue with that system (as the main pull seemed to be that 1x is fully functional as is, without hiccups).

So in your opinion, do you prefer 2x & 3x? And is the cross-chaining issue with 1x enough of an issue to write it off?

I'm guessing the cross-chaining can be addressed if you reduce the range in the cassette?

Yeah! Smaller cassettes can help. The difference in efficiency is quite small from testing Lenard Zinn did. About 8w difference. So I’d say especially for mountain biking it makes a lot of sense. For the road where someone might care about marginal gains it makes no sense IMO but to each their own!

As far as 2x vs. 3x, it depends on purpose for me. My rando bike has a triple on it and my faster road bike has a subcompact double. I think if you care about weight savings you can get really good range out of a 2x system. 3x could be more useful for a “do anything” kind of bike.

> One less derailleur to adjust or have fail, so less maintenance.

Theoretically, this is true. Except that the derailleur that 1x design removes is the front derailleur, not well known as the locus of failure or maintainance.

Two words: road salt.

Suddenly I realized that my front derailleur was merely a chain guide.

I was really unkind to my bicycles. Always trying to find a way to replace fewer parts. I've broken or worn out and replaced everything except the frame, seat post and handlebars on that bike.

I live in a flat place, so I know a LOT of folks who set up their crit (racing) bikes as 1x. 1x on gravel and MTB has become almost the standard.

It happens because the cassettes have gotten SO WIDE -- 12 speed is pretty normal now -- that you don't so much need the extra chainring in front to get a pretty wonderful gear range, especially in contexts where having close ratios may not matter (e.g., mtb or gravel).

We have hills here and I very much enjoy being able to drop my chain 10 or 16 teeth at a time with my 2x11 mountain and 2x10 all road setups.

I wouldn't go back to 3x9 though. Maybe on the vintage road bike where finding any crankset other than a road 52/42 is an adventure.

Yeah, I really don't know how well 1x setups work for people in hillier places. I did a big charity ride through the Texas hill country about a month ago, and I didn't even take my normal road bike (53/39, 11-25). I took my "endurance" frame that's geared way easier (50/34, 11-28).

A 1x would've been miserable, and this was a weekend with only maybe 6,000 feet of climbing.

That said, are they even MAKING 2x mountain bike setups anymore?

Yes, Shimano is quite conservative and they still make 2x setups. The MTB manufacturers rarely use them though, maybe as a cost cutting measure and also because everyone and their neighbour now wants 1x.

On the gravel bike side of things, 1x still doesn't cut it in the low gearing department and one needs to resort to mixing incompatible gravel and MTB mechanical parts. That's where electronic shifting comes to the rescue.

53/39 is insane. I only use subcompacts like 46/30 or 48/32. No use for the ≥ 50T here.

Yeah, it's hella flat in Houston. ;) I sometimes get texts from pals who live elsewhere after I upload, say, a 60+ mile ride with, like, 300 feet of elevation.

I love the feel of the 53 vs the compact on my Roubaix, but i have to be really on top of my game to take it to (e.g.) Austin.

Dropper seat posts are even coming to road bikes now. As large, heavy person with a high center of gravity I welcome this trend. Descending Mt. Umunhum on my road bike is a hair-raising experience.

https://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor-gear/bikes-and-biking/...

You're not wrong. I built up a frame from '89 with random leftovers from more recent bikes and it works. No oddball standards or 'well, you'll have to get an adapter' silliness. It was kindof refreshing to build AND it functions just fine.

Somewhere in the 90's - early 00's was peak bike and I think most (but not all) progress after that came from marketing departments.

Exceptions: MTB geometry changes (debatable), dropper posts, aero wheels.

Not exceptions: internal cable routing, proprietary integrated brakes/handlebars/stems/bottle cages/forks, 1x don't @ me.

At least your username is on point. Should all these new riders also get off your lawn with electronic shifting, GPS computers, and carbon frames?

I wouldn't be too discouraged, it's still pretty rare to see on most bikes. I don't feel like it will become the norm outside of very-high-end, just because it can never be cheaper than cable shifted. People buying very-high-end stuff are usually acquainted with the warranty/return to manufacturer process so at least it won't be your hassle.

I have had the same though by the way. I reckon a small bike shop would be a great little business to run into retirement.

Electronic shifting is already the norm on bikes $5,000+. Shimano is about to introduce an electronic version of their 105 groupset, which will probably normalize electronic shifting on bikes in the $2,000+ price range. Electronic Tiagra and Sora are probably less than a decade away, which will drive that number even lower.

I feel like electronic shifting can be made cheap enough that I expect it to show up on 200$ Chinese groupsets soon

I wouldn't mind it if ultegra/dura ace also came w/ a mechanical option. But to completely d/c mechanical w/ the latest flagship groups and not provide an option? that's harsh...

Built my last road bike from the ground up and I would say electronic shifting is my favorite part. Its more precise and easier to maintain than cable shifting.

All this compatibility warring sucks of course. But there's tons of merit to going digital on certain bike parts.

I was just going to say this except on my mountain bike. Just put AXS wireless shifter on there and was surprised at how nice it made the shifting. I barely ever charge it and have an extra battery that travels with my mountain bike “box o crap” just in case.

Ultegra? I sadly bought a bike just before Ultegra switched to electronic shifting, so mine is just barely the model before. It looks very interesting though, maybe one day...

I'm the same way with my bikes, but after renting a bike in Santa Cruz, I definitely noticed a positive difference in shifting promptness with electronic vs cable. Not enough for me to retrofit an existing bike, but enough to use as a criteria point when comparing models. In some ways, its like going to linear brakes after using modulated for so long. Different experience, and I definitely prefer Shimano 4pot calipers over Srams.

Re: lights on bikes. Dynamos and dynamo hubs thankfully remain constrained by physics, so they will remain interoperable with a number of brands for a long time.

I highly recommend anyone that uses a bicycle for any meaningful amount as part of their day-to-day routine to get a dynamo hub and a light. You will save your sanity with battery replacements.

But be prepared for constantly having to deal with well-meaning people saying “Excuse me, you left your light on!”.

I always have my battery powered lights on when I'm riding on the road, even in the middle of the day. I run a bright red rear light (not flashing 100-200 lumens depending on time of day) and a bright amber or white front light (120 lumen amber during daylight, 200-800 lumen white near sunrise/sunset or when dark). Car drivers are very unaware of their surroundings, any additional indication I can give them to pay attention to me and not hit me is worth it for me. I want my lights to look like drivers expect car lights to look, as that's what they're trained to look for.

Mmmm I'm not sure about that universally in cities at least. I have dynamo lights on one bike and I love them. BUT the wheels on a decent bike are already the single most expensive part and easiest to steal if you're sloppy about your locking. Dynamo hub + custom wheel build just doubled the value of what was already the most stealable component.

It definitely changes when and where I ride that bike in ways that don't always mesh well with the advantages of the dynamo. I still prefer it but if I didn't have a cheaper less desirable bike for some lockup situations I'm not sure I'd do it.

Not sure I agree. A basic dyno hub is not really that more expensive than a mid-level regular hub (the Shimano on my bike cost about $60 if memory serves), and you really have to have a trained eye to even spot it. They're also pretty rare, which makes recovery more likely in the event of theft. I guess mine never really stuck out at me as a theft target. And if you're in an area where that's really a risk, you probably want to be using something like PitLock anyways. The benefits of always having lights massively outweigh the downsides IMO.

Yeah most of the cost is in the wheel build. It's a couple hours of skilled work. I learned to do it myself but the last wheel I had built cost $150 for just spokes and labor.

A bike thief has a trained eye! Someone snagged a vintage campagnolo brake caliper off my bike a couple years back. People know what they're looking for.

I should check my privilege of living in a place with trivial bike thefts. I’ve gotten used to sticking my u-lock through the frame, bike rack and front wheel, but haven’t had it realistically challenged to know if it’s effective.

This is why I ride a brakeless track bike, everything else is just putting another level of annoying indirection between you and the thing you want to be doing.

Is that legal to ride on the road?

Have a read of https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2017/sep/18/cyclist...

In the US, yeah, they are as far as I know.

Fixie riders are generally not welcome on roadie group rides. It's not IMPOSSIBLE to learn to ride predictably and safely on one, but most fixie riders seem completely disinterested in the discipline required.

(See also: tri bikes.)

Road riders are also not really welcome on fixed gear rides because they're unwilling to hop curbs and scare drivers to keep the flow. It's different cultures and skill sets for sure but framing it as "discipline" is kinda shitty imo.

It takes discipline and skill to ride in a double paceline at speed. I don't know what else to call it.

We're just not interested in that particular thing, but we are disciplined. Riding to place in an alleycat absolutely requires discipline.

Whatever.

People are allowed to ride motorcycles and drive cars, let's not pretend that banning brakeless track bikes on the road makes sense.

There's minimum standards for both motorcycles and cars. Here in the UK, two brakes are required on bikes over a certain size (e.g. small kids bikes are exempt) if used on the public roads. Fixies are considered to have a rear brake as you can slow down using the pedals, but they need a front brake as well to be legal.

Dynamo powered components are an exception. Great interoperability, repairability and product life.

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