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Comment by stuxnet79 | Hacker News Reader

> Very different worlds, with pros and cons in each.

Indeed they are. I've straddled both worlds for most of my adult life and while I have a bias to a more communal / less individualistic approach to life, I can acknowledge the benefits it brings.

One thing I realized though is that years of being inculcated with non-western values has resulted in me having a stunted / underdeveloped "self-concept". This is very much ill-suited for life in the west. I struggle to set boundaries and have an unhealthy obsession with other people's concerns, their opinions. In other words I'm a strong 'people pleaser' which isn't a great trait to have in a dog-eat-dog society where each individual is only concerned about their own welfare. I'm curious if you have experienced something similar? How were you able to reconcile both perspectives?

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Even as a white person who has lived in America his whole life, I struggle with this. I am a strong person but my instinct is to "people please" and do things in a communal way.

I just think that acting communally makes more sense, so I do it. I assume that others will do the same. But they don't. As you say this can lead to negative outcomes.

I feel the article has a strong skew towards an utilitarian approach to life. Everything needs a function and a purpose and the author’s writing seems to reflect that. I guess it’s part of western culture to some extent but it’s good to know it’s not the only way and especially in polarizing times it’s good to go the other way and learn (others) about trust and a sense of belonging.

> I just think that acting communally makes more sense, so I do it. I assume that others will do the same. But they don't.

You are not wrong. They are the ones being selfish.

Thank you, I sort of needed that this morning. Your words brightened a stranger's day by a bit.

Well, he's mistaken in his assumption others will act the same way as him. That's a kind of 'wrong', too- towards himself.

Being kind to other and giving them the benefit of the doubt until proven otherwise is only human.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reciprocal_altruism

And can be hugely benefitical or detrimental.

Adam Grant writes about this topic in. Givers are overrepresented both among the most and among the least successful individuals. https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/16158498-give-and-take

> a stunted / underdeveloped "self-concept"

Very true. In a non-western culture, the self is shadowed and limited by the group identity. I believe that contributes to the unity of the group and the warmth one misses when living in individualistic societies. But when taken to the extreme, it creates fragile group identities, and leads to their demise in the long run, for a group can't be strong if its members don't have a healthy sense of themselves.

Very well said!

My other comment is relevant here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31578957

Thanks! You echoed my thoughts exactly. Added the book to my reading list.

Perhaps you should read "The 48 Laws of Power" by Robert Greene. I first read it in my early thirties and got depressed for a while. I used to be 'people pleaser' too. Expecting everyone to do the 'right' thing or reason in a certain way. That book made me understand that people may be guided or driven by laws or maxims different from mine. I had been very naive about how the world worked for so long and that made me sad. I certainly wasn't going to court attention at all costs, or keep people dependent on me, but I was now aware that these were principles followed by some people and expecting them to behave otherwise was foolishness. Then learn some Stoic philosophies. The daily stoic by Ryan Holiday is good recommendation.

I think a healthy addendum to "The 48 Laws of Power", certainly a rough/cynical take on how power is curried, is "How to Win Friends and Influence People". IME it essentially tells you about how to be a people pleaser in the vein of the former - main thing being, speak to other's self-interests without being a doormat.

You might find The Geography of Thought: How Asians and Westerners Think Differently...and Why by Richard Nisbett interesting.

Like you, having experienced both Eastern/Western values i had come to the conclusion that this is the main reason for the "Rise of West" over the last few centuries. Individualism has free reign within a much larger boundary so People can realize their potential in any chosen dimension. Eastern Cultures/Values were so stifling that they sabotaged their own development. Thankfully they have learnt their lesson (we are adaptive organisms after all) and i believe that their amalgamation of Groupism and Individualism is now propelling them forward.

Have you looked into Taoist philosophy? I wouldn't call it "individualistic" but it does teach about letting go of concerns and accepting things for the way they are.

Very much so. I stuggle with being blunt and direct. I feel I carry this from asian culture and doesn't translate well in the west.

Spend a few years in Germany! I come from a very indirect culture by Western standards, but now after living in German for a while I just come out and say it, although not as harshly perhaps. It certainly makes getting things done easier.

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