Hacker News Reader

> Both to show ads in the vehicle and to harvest your location data.

The discourse 5-10 years ago was that this was the price you pay for free (as in beer) consumer services. In reality, no such principles exist, and everything is instead a numbers game. Do enough people complain? Does it factor into their purchase decisions?

Unfortunately, average people seem to not value their attention, even as everyone else is fighting tooth and nail for a share of it.

There are legal requirements for enhanced emergency calling in European cars. Cars must have the ability to alert emergency responders with location data. Don’t expect to be able to disable internet in cars going forward.

The Chinese government at least is not in disguise about their surveillance plans whereas we see it sneaked in into more and more appliances of daily use.

I hate this coming Orwellian future.

Eh? The EU directives are all above board and documented, so I'm not sure what you're referring to.

That said, they do need to be monitored at all time; abusing that location data for different usage is only one piece of legislation away. Which is why it's probably best to not gather this information in the first place.

To invoke Godwin's Law, iirc you are no longer required to fill in your religion anywhere, because the nazi's used records like that to track down Jewish people and others they were after.

This is why these privacy laws are so important, and why the right to be forgotten should be sacred; you should be able to disappear if the governments turn against you.

If you wait for the government to turn against you to attempt to "disappear" it already to late.

The right to be forgotten is the wrong place to push for privacy, it should be the "right to never be known".

As to the "EU directives are all above board and documented" you know what they say about the road to hell, and good intentions right?

The right to never be known, in the sense in which I think you must mean it here, is fairly simple to obtain. Stay off the internet and stay off cell networks.

Oh, you mean you want to be able to have your devices send requests to other people's devices and have them respond, but at the same time, you want there to be no record that your device ever did this? Good luck with that.

You read or interpret this wrong. The EU government might be acting in good intention and I acknowledge that. Yet consumer electronics has the means to collect data for profiling like crazy. EU government data privacy acts are weak measures compared to liberal company laws with their seats outside the EU jurisdiction. Freemium will nudge far to many people to give away their data.

An GDPR relevancy outside the EU is just a paper promise.

How would you sell a fridge or a car in the EU if you're not compliant?

Nothing like the government stealing your freedoms "for your own good".

how does that even fit with gdpr in europe? seems like a massive invasion of privacy without consent.

https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/travel/security-and-em...

https://ec.europa.eu/justice/article-29/documentation/opinio...

https://www.phoronix.com/forums/forum/phoronix/general-discu...

It is mandatory to have it installed for new cars, but it looks like it can be disabled if the owner prefers to be left alone while dying, instead of calling an ambulance :D

> it can be disabled if the owner prefers to be left alone while dying, instead of calling an ambulance :D

Nobody prefers to die. It's the part where it's capable of being active all the time that's worrying.

You also can't control the mandatory microphone. How long until someone abuses that (if it hasn't happened already)?

The device is built and tested according to some well-defined specifics; it is not connected to the network, and it is not capable of recording more than 3 positions and send them if an accident occurs, as well as establishing a phone call. Anything else is a violation perpetrated the manufacturer, as well as faking the specific tests that are formulated to check if the device is compliant: https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=celex:32...

Abuses can always happen, and we should put reasonable checks in place to avoid them. Is the current regulation good enough to minimize the risk of having them? I hope so.

Note that this applies only to eCall system. Any other system that might be installed in a car doesn't have to stick to these rules.

Sure, but that "any other system" is not mandated by EU rules, which is what started this subthread.

It would still need to respect EU privacy regulations (as any other instrument, of course), which include consent. Nobody is forcing you to be tracked.

I have a new car and no, it can't be disabled. You can only disable tracking by the car company but not emergency calling.

Via IMEI tracking the cell providers have your location data, willingly or not. If you want to travel anonymously you'd better have an oldtimer. I know of lawyers who only visit clients with an old car.

As reported, installation of such device is mandatory (first link), but it does not need to be active. This is why some car manufacturers disable it upon request (see the third link). I mean, BMW and Porche disable that if requested.

Devices that allow tracking when no accident occurred, violate the current regulation. This is stressed multiple times. "not connected to the mobile phone networks until a serious accident happens" -- https://ec.europa.eu/newsroom/dae/redirection/document/5963

"it is not permanently connected to mobile networks" -- https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/fr/MEMO_1...

"not connected to the mobile phone networks until a serious accident happens" -- https://ec.europa.eu/newsroom/dae/redirection/document/5963

There is even a technical test to check if the device is compliant with the privacy regulations: "Procedure for verifying the lack of traceability of an eCall in-vehicle system", where the "Failure to establish the connection can be attributed to the 112-based eCall in-vehicle system not being registered on the network" -- https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=celex:32...

Registering the SIM on the network before an accident occurred could be considered a violation indeed.

Unfortunately, something being legislated does mean nothing. In Germany, there has been Covid location tracking via an app (Luca App) for venues. Despite legislation explicitely forbidding that, police tried and gained access to this data.

My previous car sometimes came up with a warning that eCall currently is not available. I'd attribute that to bad reception which means that connection at least has been tried.

I know, there are plenty of cases (and this is why we should defend our rights and support associations like https://noyb.eu/ in my opinion), but I would object that having an app, running on an always-connected smartphone, which register and share data, poses a potential higher risk than an embedded device with a much smaller task that is tested and validated before being sold on the market. There is almost no data record in this case, thus a leak would have a minimal impact, while a backdoored/tampered/non-compliant hardware would still be problematic, but less likely (hopefully).

Your previous car could have had a non-compliant implementation, but it could be that the system run a passive network scanning from time to time, without trying any connection, just because it would be way faster to connect to a network and send a message if there is an up-to-date list of the compatible available operators. Having a better understanding about the specifics of the various implementation would be interesting. The devil is in the details :)

To connect to cellular (2G/3G/4G/5G), you have to listen for a beacon from a base station. If you don't hear a beacon strong enough, you aren't even allowed to try to connect (as it involves transmitting a connection request).

> Devices that allow tracking when no accident occurred, violate the current regulation. This is stressed multiple times. "not connected to the mobile phone networks until a serious accident happens" -- https://ec.europa.eu/newsroom/dae/redirection/document/5963

Note that the linked document applies only to eCall In Vehicle System. Nothing prevent manufacturer to install a second system, using the same or separate modem, and track user's location and actions continuously. If the law requires you to install a GPS receiver and a modem, it would be uncapitalistic not to try to gain some profits from the data.

Sure, so? Is that mandatory? No. Would it require explicit user permission? Yes, as any other device or service in EU. The user or the manufacturer always have the ability to put extra devices which do whatever, if they respect the current regulations. This has nothing to do with having eCall installed by default.

it's all good until the local NPR station bricks your mazda's infotainment unit

https://www.google.com/search?channel=fs&client=ubuntu&q=npr...

Wow. Broken image handling in code requiring a hardware component swap. That's all kinds of awful.

Or a demon starts haunting your car radio: https://gimletmedia.com/shows/reply-all/76hel39

That's KISS on a HD+ radio.

Seriously as a European I do not know enough about HD+ radio but DAB radio can transmit pictures which until now is mostly used to transfer album covers.

In due time we will see this abused to hammer ads down our throats.

> In due time we will see this abused to hammer ads down our throats.

When the service was first implemented, that was a possibility. Now, the most we're likely to take advantage of it is to show you a display ad that matches with the current "over the air" ad that you're hearing. Advertisers aren't interested in selling on top of someone else's advertising, and programming doesn't want their displays messed with outside of commercial breaks.

Plus.. it's a pretty low value service and honestly not worth selling. Advertisers all want demographic driven sales now, so those channels aren't all that useful to us.

RadioDNS opens the door somewhat to this, because it can direct your radio to start a stream instead of listening "over the air." However, there, we're happy to be able to replace the over the air ads with programmatic digital ads and that sales channel really doesn't care about "additional display opportunities" either.

Be happy that radio is slow to implement standards, and usually too far behind the punch to get the expected return out of them. So.. just album art for the foreseeable future.

Oh wow the reason this scary face keeps on showing up sporadically is hilarious.

or until Queen starts haunting a demon’s car, then you know you’ve realbeezlebub has a devil put aside for me, for meeeeeeeeee

It's time to start developing the NoScript/UBlock of the future, which will hopefully be able to block all the ads running in cars, fridges, shops, floating drones, sidewalks etc.

Or for the entrepreneurs and investors to actually invest in low-tech products again; most kitchen appliances only need some solid state chips to control displays and programs and the like.

problem is that low tech products disappear from shelves. its almost impossible to buy a dumb tv anymore.

Shouldn't the old supply-and-demand sort that out?

The advertising element of 'smart' devices subsidizes their price. You're competing against devices that are both more convenient and cheaper, and whose drawbacks are not immediately apparent to the general consumer, both because there's no requirement to state plainly the implications of the 'smart' technology on privacy and data sharing, and because such drawbacks are more abstract.

How does the supply and demand work if you cant buy any alternative anymore. Its like trying to buy non LED light bulbs.

Nobody tells you about ads and tracking when you buy a TV. Therefore a consumer can be easily fooled.

From what I've seen in IRL stores, there's no interest in dumb TVs. Everyone wants smart TVs, and I haven't seen any new TV that was dumb.

What people are interested in is cheap TVs and the tradeoff they are making is they buy a smart TV that has a lower price because it's subsidized with advertising revenue.

Maybe people want internet connected TVs to attach to streaming services, but I doubt anyone really wants what we are calling "Smart" TVs

You can still buy a 4k projector without any of the BS.

Thats not a TV. But I agree its a good alternative.

It's better than a TV imho. If one really wants to make it as similar to a TV as possible, they can ceiling mount a short throw projector and paint the target wall with special non-reflective paint. It'll appear as if the picture is coming right from the wall.

We bought whatever smart tv and not connected to wifi and use apple tv instead. I don’t see problems with it.

Until they start coming with cell modems, or they broker deals with ISPs to be able to access any router leased by them, or they connect to any open SSID the second it sees it, or they broker deals with other device manufacturers to hotspot off them

Or they wait until the return period has passed and then demand an internet connection before they'll continue to function.

Careful devil, don’t give them any ideas

I don't think I need a display on any kitchen appliance?

You'll need laws, regulation, lawsuits, and lawyers.

At a minimum.

Goddamnit. I already had to listen to a bunch of ads while I pumped gas today. At one point, they were giving health advice. Fuck you. Health advice from a gas station, where there's nothing inside the store but shit that will kill you? And you're pumping gas, sniffing fumes that will kill you, then will be burned and will kill you some more. Fuck. And yes, I did try pressing all the known mute buttons.

I think you can buy a 5G jammer on aliexpress /s

Aren't those just faraday cages?

“Jamming” normally means interfering with a radio signal by broadcasting on that same frequency at a higher power. As opposed to something passive like a faraday cage to stop signal getting in to a given area.

You can't realistically put a Faraday cage around your car's spying module.

Just put it around the car.

Good luck finding a Faraday cage without a built in LTE modem these days.

Yo dawg, we herd you liek Faraday cages...

Honda is one of the most conservative car companies. Among other things they took way longer to start introducing turbochargers into their mainstream lineup. It has its benefits.

I never fully understood why my dad only really bought Honda vehicles as a kid. Nowadays I do. Less cruft, more robustness. They just keep on running. My dad's '91 Accord has 320,000+ miles on it now, and it's still trucking along.

Do not forget to repeat your intervention after every service at an officially brand recognized service center.

> Both to show ads in the vehicle

WTF. Is this a thing? How?

My friend's 2018 Nissan Rogue displays logos of some nearby restaurants / gas stations / stores on the navigation map. The brands that are shown change every once in a while.

Some cars show nearby points of interest as a feature; this isn't that.

People still use integrated navigation systems?

> People still use integrated navigation systems?

Yes. I have a ~5yro Ford Fiesta with navigation built in and I massively prefer it to using a phone app.

Its standalone (mapping is on an sd card) so I know it will still work if I'm in a remote area with poor network coverage. It also has physical, tactile buttons (no touchscreen) that my muscle memory can learn, and which don't suddenly reposition themselves at the whims of some app ux designer. It can automatically download traffic updates via bluetooth on my phone, but its otherwise "self hosted" on my car.

Basically, it just works the way I expect and doesn't try to distract me. Which is all that I need.

I would use my built on mapping for those reasons if I had any, but just as an aside, OSMAnd+ is an offline heavy duty free FOSS navigation and maps app. It's not quite as user friendly as google maps unfortunately, but the offline, downloadable navigation maps have saved my ass a few times.

That's cool. Definitely a win for having all maps pre-loaded, augmented by traffic updates. Also surprising that the map data are on an SD card, given car companies' penchant for technologically-outmoded and proprietary systems that force you to go to the dealer for simple updates.

FYI you can download maps to your phone too. That plus CarPlay is pretty much the same experience.

I know. But my car has mapping for the whole of the uk, wheras afaik google maps only lets me download routes or city-sized areas. And I'd have to remember to plan ahead and download over wifi.

It depends a bit, but I think you can download entire regions.

Google maps/Waze shows these business logos as well. In certain cases, the navigation assistant will also say the business' name when navigating.

Example: Instead of "Turn left onto Broad Street", it will say, "Turn left after the Wendy's".

It's pretty subtle right now, but I have no doubts that it will get more nefarious in the future.

If there’s an option to disable this “feature”, then it’s probably not advertising.

Good thing Apple Maps doesn’t subtly repeat biz names to me until I remember them. If this ever happens, I’ll move back to paper maps.

I don’t care if I have to pull over, it beats this mental manipulation and my mind being an advertisers plaything.

To be fair, for some turns that is a better experience.

I don't think that's an ad. I think Google just knows that a giant restaurant sign is a lot easier to see than a tiny street sign

Can't it be both? Google's entire career is combining something useful (gmail) with something shady (reading your emails to sell ads).

This sounds exactly like that.

You really think no money changes hands to power this feature? The last ~decade of tech teaches one to assume otherwise…

True, but instructions based on intersection features are better than both. Apple maps does this with instructions like "go past this light then at the next one turn right"

A large integrated touch-screen as opposed to your smartphone? Yeah.

These have improved somewhat

I don’t think it’s a thing. I’ve never seen a car that shows ads. Logos in the nav system doesn’t really qualify IMO.

>it may not be possible to easily do that without also removing GPS/radio functionality. Some models are now integrating WiFi/Bluetooth into the same system.

I don’t really need any of those with my phone in the car.

> and to harvest your location data.

Can't find the reference but don't they use this for generating precise topological data?

You should not use somebody else's car to gather topological data without permission.

You cannot have ads in cars in France (and generally - Europe). That must be an insane experience.

> And it'll show a warning on the dash

That means it will fail the bi-annual mandatory check.

Could custom Faraday cages be integrated?

Afaik, on pretty much every modern car the single main antenna unit (usually the shark fin on the roof) handles cellular and GPS (Rx only) and radio (AM/FM, and often also weather/traffic, Rx only).

So you'll lose the other things if you put it in a Faraday cage.

A cage is a bad way to do it anyway. It's easier to disconnect the cable between the antenna & the telematics module (which has the SIM and control electronics in it). Or disconnect the power to the telematics module. Etc. Depending on the wiring harness style and design of the car's electronics, that may also let you disconnect just the cellular antenna while leaving the GPS/radio antennas connected.

In the future we might see those components getting integrated together... But you can always physically destroy/remove the antenna.

> But you can always physically destroy/remove the antenna

Unless the device itself becomes the antenna or is reacting passively as is the case in RFID.

That's already happening :)

If you have an automatic toll transponder (ez-pasz, etc.), those things are read very frequently even when you're not going through a toll meter. There's info on this online.

TPMS sensors also transmit a serial number. I wouldn't put it past the NSA to have sensors embedded in certain roads to track that.

And of course, dragnet automatic license plate scanning / tracking is already ubiquitous and there's really not anything you can do about it. Use a bicycle instead, I guess...

My Irish one wasn't. It beeps when it's being read and it was only read at toll ports.

I mean, what if it only beeps when it's being read and the reader doesn't mind you knowing about it? Not that it's necessarily happening but I don't see how that would be impossible.

Its all very interesting as an idea. But in reality when things go fully tracked you'll be fined for not having location data for every trip. It will impact insurance. Your registration. Even basic road usage. People have this idea right now that public roads will always stay free. This is not guaranteed.

Even the coming road taxes are all about constant tracking. How far / which road did you drive? They'll demand the answer. And you put a faraday cage to stop this? Suspicious. The default assumption is going to be fraud. Criminal behavior.

All the EVs will soon enough have some variety of tracking sooner or later. So thats basically all new vehicles. The alternatives will also, whatever they are. Hydrogen?

Transport privacy is likely dead already.

Well maybe the auto manufacturers will push the cell carriers to finally have service everywhere then... That'd be nice.

Sitting next to an internal combustion engine in a mostly-metal box is already pretty noisy as RF environments go. It's much easier to find and disable the antenna than to try to shield it off.