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Comment by LeoPanthera | Hacker News Reader

I've been a Tesla owner for a couple of years and I am anxious to sell it. I no longer want to be associated with that company.

I've had my eyes on the Lucid Air Touring as my next car, but stuff like this doesn't instill confidence. The absolute disaster that is Tesla's build quality and servicing is one of the reasons I'm switching in the first place!

The whole EV market is a disaster right now. If you want an EV from a "mainstream" manufacturer, be prepared to pay enormous dealer markups and be bullied into upgrades.

I hate it.

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> If you want an EV from a "mainstream" manufacturer, be prepared to pay enormous dealer markups and be bullied into upgrades.

Tesla has plenty of things about them to criticize, but one thing they did well was the buying experience. They cut out all the bullshit that dealers put you through.

It took me five minutes to purchase my car online. When delivery day came, just had to sign a couple DMV forms, add my phone as a key, and I was done.

No bullshit upselling, no haggling on the price, just get online, fill out the forms, and done.

I’m surprised Polestar hasn’t been mentioned. While not mainstream—yet—the PS2 is a great car. We definitely had teething issues (software mostly) with the Launch Edition, but Polestar’s Android Automative implementation has got more solid in the last year.

Polestar and Volvo both have excellent EVs. Audi's e-tron models, ditto. The EQS, same.

BMW's i4 and iX just came out, both of which appear to blow Tesla out of the fucking water.

Hyundai's Ioniq 5, so far getting rave reviews from owners that match the press.

The Ford Mach-E is having a bit of teething issues reportedly (cooling related, I think?) but I see them all over the place.

The Ford Lightning has sold out several years worth of production.

GM has the Ultium platform in production (Hummer) which will soon serve as the base for a number of models. The Equinox EV is in testing and everyone's guess is that they will sell better than hotcakes unless GM manages to fuck it up. Hopefully they call all the "fuck it up" out of their system with the Bolt.

VW right now is trailing the pack. The IQ4 by all accounts was a huge swing and a miss, which is inexcusable coming from one of the world's largest car companies. They tried to "re-imagine" "the car" on a basic level and failed miserably. For example: it automatically turns on/off. No power/start switch. Just get in, use the "gear" selector, and drive. Ditto for stoping. Sounds great, right? Except if you come out of the driver's seat for even a second (as is common when backing up) the car thinks you're "leaving" and almost immediately shuts itself off. Then they had to go and infantilize the climate control system. I wish I were joking when you tap a "I'm cold" button or "I can't see out the windshield" to get things to happen. Apparently VW's IQ team thinks people are absolute imbeciles.

blow tesla out of the water how? also telsas have the same (similar?) keyless/buttonless system as the VW (though it just parks, doesn't shut off the car)

Every review of the i4 says that it has the fit and finish that you expect with a BMW. Obviously there are other criteria that matter, like range, etc, that Tesla is still in the lead. However the compromises you may need to make with the a Tesla are becoming less tolerable as you see more options in the market. Tesla's lead will not hold.

I would take those reviews with a big grain of salt; those reviewers are in tight with legacy auto manufacturers (I forget which, but one of the big auto magazines didn't even include Tesla in their rankings for top 2022 EVs).

Also, surely "range" is one of the dominating factors in purchasing an EV, right? I'll tolerate some fit and finish issues so long as I don't have to stop to charge every hour (assuming I can even find a charger).

I believe other auto manufacturers will eventually catch up, but not until they catch up on range and charging network.

> Also, surely "range" is one of the dominating factors in purchasing an EV, right?

Definitely true when the range was around 100 or 150 miles. Less true when the range is closer to 300.

> I'll tolerate some fit and finish issues so long as I don't have to stop to charge every hour (assuming I can even find a charger).

Are there any Tesla competitors that have so little range that they need to be charged every hour?

> Definitely true when the range was around 100 or 150 miles. Less true when the range is closer to 300.

300 rated miles is closer to 200 actual miles when you account for cold weather, head winds, and not charging to 100% at each station along the route (usually you only charge to ~60-80%). If you're only driving around town, that's fine, but road trips are going to suck below 300 (visiting family in another state during the holidays?) especially if your charging network sucks (even on Tesla's network there are some butt-clenching stretches).

> Are there any Tesla competitors that have so little range that they need to be charged every hour?

I'm pretty sure my Model Y needs to be charged every couple of hours of highway driving in the winter (maybe even less? I'm not sure) and its rated for ~320 miles. Based on that, I would guess that some of the 200-250 rated cars are coming in pretty close to charging every hour. Whether it's an hour or an hour and twenty minutes, I'm not interested.

Sure, I get that winter affects things — I wasn't referring to the worst-case scenario for charging. People who road-trip in cold weather (and don't have a second vehicle) will continue to care about max range for longer than other folks. In warmer parts of the country/world, I think range anxiety/concern will tail off pretty soon.

There are other valid concerns of course; where I live, issues with the electric grid make it dicey to have only EVs.

> In warmer parts of the country/world, I think range anxiety/concern will tail off pretty soon.

Even the warmer parts of the country get pretty cold (it was 20 degrees all over the southwest when I roadtripped in January). If you live near a coast maybe it's mild enough that you won't notice it. I'll hazard a (probably ignorant) guess, but I would think most of the reliably-warm world is either too poor for an EV or they don't have reliable electricity or both.

Also, surely "range" is one of the dominating factors in purchasing an EV, right? I'll tolerate some fit and finish issues so long as I don't have to stop to charge every hour (assuming I can even find a charger).

No, for the same reason that "size of gas tank" isn't a dominant factor in purchasing an ICE vehicle. Modern EVs don't need to be charged every hour, unless you're planning on getting the Hummer EV.

Tesla does have a superior charging network. However, several other cars have better range than Tesla.

> No, for the same reason that "size of gas tank" isn't a dominant factor in purchasing an ICE vehicle.

Gas tank size doesn’t matter because it takes 2 minutes to fill a tank and there are gas stations every few miles. The EV situation is at least an order of magnitude worse in both cases. It’s a completely different game.

Range is important, but the differences diminish once we get above 250 or 300 miles. Especially for what may be typical, where you charge nightly at home. Those who regularly drive for a living may have a different perspective.

Looking past reviews and whatnot, I can't ignore some of the bigger safety concerns, like randomly catching on fire. An extra 20 or 30 miles of range is irrelevant in that case. (to be fair, maybe that's a general EV issue, and Tesla is known only because of the volume of that market they own)

I don’t drive for a living—on the contrary, I work from home. But I do make a lot of trips out of state—we have a lot of family in a 5-7 hour radius, not to mention regional recreational traveling. Realistically a 5 hour drive is 6 hours with 2 charging stops and my car is rated for 330 miles. A 7 hour drive is probably at least 8.5 hours. It’s considerably worse in the winter. I would never want to drop down to 250 miles of range.

Many of those same sites rank Tesla highly as well. Knowing how Tesla uses NDAs as a tool, I wouldn't be surprised if there's gaming there as well.

I'm pretty sure all of those cars are far less efficient in the miles per kwh sense than their tesla counterparts. Which is a shame.

It does look like the Model 3 has a decent lead in efficiency:

https://ev-database.uk/compare/efficiency-electric-vehicle-m...

Probably not BMW. They actually beat Tesla to market with high-efficiency, switched-reluctance designs (someone please correct me if I'm wrong here, I think that's what the tech is called), and have an uncanny ability to design low coefficients of drag.

I have an ID4 and I've had a great experience with it. The car only thinks you're leaving if your butt is off the seat and the driver side door is open. With the climate controls, there is a 'smart climate' and a 'classic climate' view. The 'smart climate' options aren't as bad as you suggest either.

My only real gripes with it are the laggy infotainment system and meh mobile app.

> BMW's i4 and iX just came out, both of which appear to blow Tesla out of the fucking water.

In what sense does it blow Tesla out of the water? A Model 3 gets 334 miles of range and it MSRPs at $49K--the most you can get out of BMW seems to be 315 and it costs almost double.

> The Ford Lightning has sold out several years worth of production.

That only speaks to Ford's marketing.

> GM has the Ultium platform in production (Hummer) which will soon serve as the base for a number of models.

Personally I'm not keen on a 9klb car.

> Just get in, use the "gear" selector, and drive.

Tesla has had that for a while now, and it works pretty well. I'm not sure why you'd "come out of the driver's seat" while backing up, but my Tesla doesn't shut off.

> Then they had to go and infantilize the climate control system. I wish I were joking when you tap a "I'm cold" button or "I can't see out the windshield" to get things to happen. Apparently VW's IQ team thinks people are absolute imbeciles.

Tesla probably beats them for the stupidest climate control system. If anyone in the car wants to adjust their seat heaters, it automatically turns on the heat or A/C, so you have to open up the climate control menu (which automatically turns on heat or A/C), adjust seat heaters, turn off the heat/AC, and then close the menu.

Similarly, the defrost buttons always turn the fan up to the max (and you can't turn it back down) and they also turn up either heat or AC to the max as well. So you're getting blasted in the face with either super hot air or super cold air, so in practice you toggle it on until you're uncomfortable, then turn it off, then wait for the windshield to fog up again, and repeat.

As if that weren't enough, there's no way to tell it to warm up or cool down, you have to set the exact temperature. So I guess you're supposed to carry a thermostat with you so you know what temperature it is currently, and then you can turn on your climate control and tell Tesla to make it a little warmer or colder.

To your point on the Model 3, I think you forgot to unselect the 'including incentives' button on the Model 3. The actual MSRP for the 356 mi (not 334, 334 is with the 19" wheels) Model 3 is $56k.

In comparison, the i4 is 55k MSRP for the base one, certain not double the price (at least, at MSRP).

That said, I see some things I see as important differences at those MSRP points:

* Model 3 has their basic autopilot included in that price. BMW for adaptive cruise features and parking adds another $2400. Also, BMW assistant seems much, much more limited than the Tesla system based on the description.

* Model 3 includes their 'premium' audio, that's another $875 from BMW.

* Model 3 includes heated seats/steering wheel, lumbar support, etc. That's a $950 add-on from BMW.

* BMW offers ventilated front seats, which is not offered by Tesla on the Model 3; that said, it's a $350 option. plus requires the $1.5k leather option as well.

* Model 3 is AWD. BMW is RWD only. AWD only comes on the m50 model, which also has lower range (and more expensive by 10k)

* Model 3 is much faster (5.4 for BMW, 4.2 for Tesla)

* BMW allows 4 different synthetic color choices for free. Model 3 non-black (white) is a $1000. BMW also offers leather colorways for $1500

* BMW offers dash trim options for free. Tesla one is tied to their seat color choice

* Fancy headlights are $1000 extra from BMW. Standard with a Tesla

* "Drive recorder" is $100 from BMW. Free w/ Tesla

Some of those are pretty substantial differences, and may be another $5k on top. That's also not counting any potential dealer markups that might be in place.

You can argue about BMW vs Tesla quality, but if you're purely talking feature-set, Tesla seems to be winning handily. That said, there are certain things that may be really important to a BMW buyer (colorways, customization) that just are not offered by Tesla and could be a deal-breaker.

> To your point on the Model 3, I think you forgot to unselect the 'including incentives' button on the Model 3. The actual MSRP for the 356 mi (not 334, 334 is with the 19" wheels) Model 3 is $56k.

You're correct, I did forget to unselect that option.

> In comparison, the i4 is 55k MSRP for the base one, certain not double the price (at least, at MSRP).

The i4 gets less range. The max range option is the iX, and that only gets 315.

Your options comparison was interesting, although I don't much like adaptive cruise control or lane assist on my model Y (phantom braking) and would pay more to have a standard cruise control option--it's pretty nice that BWM offers it for free!

The BMW iX is a crossover/SUV. A fairer comparison of that car is the Model X, which is much more closely priced to the iX. The Model Y, although cheaper, isn't really the same size car so the X is a closer comparison. And then you're neck-and-neck in pricing (assuming MSRP) for those two.

Agreed, but my requirement is max range, not comparable class. The only way to get 315 miles of range out of BMW is to spend $100k.

I'm with you there. The Polestar 2 is an absolutely excellent competitor to the Model 3, along with the Ioniq 5 and EV6. In my testing I found the PS2 to be more fun than the others and vastly more comfortable than a Model 3, but less practical than the Ioniq 5 or EV6 due to using an adapted platform instead of bespoke. That said, if you don't need a ton of range or room the Polestar is a total blast in the dual motor trim! I was seriously tempted by it.

I have wanted to test drive a Polestar 2, but of course you can't just go to any Volvo dealership to do that and the nearest Polestar dealership to me is at least 6 hours away (which seems a bit much for just a test drive).

I guess Geely and the Volvo Car Group is hoping to sink the Volvo badge because presumably they have to cross-license with the original Volvo Automotive Group (now entirely focused on trucking)? The Volvo/Polestar switch/split seems goofy/weird and doesn't give a lot of confidence in either brand right now, in addition to over-complicating the dealership networks.

> If you want an EV from a "mainstream" manufacturer, be prepared to pay enormous dealer markups

Just a year ago people were getting GM/Chevy Bolt's out the door for $19k - $25k. Granted, those did have battery recalls. Might be worse price-wise now though as it looks like even 2 years old ones are selling for more than that on my local craiglist.

https://www.reddit.com/r/BoltEV/comments/ms9qbp/2021_bolt_pr...

https://www.reddit.com/r/BoltEV/comments/lff7ff/a_data_point...

My father was once a car dealer and is a pro Long-Island style negotiator — he walked out the door with a fully loaded Bolt for 22k in CA, about a year ago.

The Chevy Bolt and Chevy Spark are great cars.

I just sat my laptop on the counter and fact checked what they told me in real time, told them what I’d pay, and got a stellar deal.

I got a Gen 2 Volt in late 2020 for $19k, low mileage and top trim. Great car that hasn't given me any trouble and more than takes care of my commute with its battery.

I love driving my 22 Bolt but the battery is software capped at 80% capacity as a temporary fix and they cannot tell when I’ll get a new battery. So I’d say get a Nissan Leaf and avoid Bolt until GM gets their shit together.

A Bolt capped at 80% still has way more range than a Leaf and not much less range than a Leaf Plus.

The low end Leaf costs much less, and I bought the Bolt for the greater range, which I don’t have now. The extended range Leaf is what is I’d buy today. As an owner of a Bolt I think I have a fairly well informed opinion.

Dealers can't sell new cars under recall. If they can sell you a new one, it's got a new battery and doesn't have the capacity cap.

VW and Ford dealers seem to be honoring MSRP with pre-ordered ID.4 and Mach-e, but you need to order and wait for delivery which takes up to 9 months right now. The cars are the lot today available to buy (often abandoned pre-orders but also dealer orders) are being marked up.

> Ford dealers seem to be honoring MSRP with pre-ordered Mach-e

That's, like, the opposite of truth. In other words: a lie.

https://www.tesmanian.com/blogs/tesmanian-blog/ford-dealersh...

Majority of dealerships will always act in their self-interest and therefore heavily mark-up cars that are in demand.

Only dealership-free new entrants like Tesla / Rivian / Lucid have a single, no-haggling price.

That's for cars on the lot. Your article says nothing about pre-ordered vehicles. The ID.4 I ordered is MSRP because ordered it months ago. Similar for a pre-ordered Mach E from people I know who have bought them that way lately.

The dealer markup for cars on lot sucks, that much I agree with, and that's down to the power of traditional dealerships and and of course supply and demand.

It's generally unwise, and explicitly against the guidelines on this site, to call someone a liar.

Ford cracked down on that practice months ago. (https://www.foxbusiness.com/lifestyle/ford-cracking-down-3-6..., https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/companies/ford-gm-are-cracki...)

I can confirm that at least at my dealer. Just bought a Mach E this week that I ordered the first week of October of last year. Got it at the MSRP at the time of order, not purchase. The salesman was telling me that the guy he was helping before me took over an abandoned pre order and paid 10k of dealer markup for that privilege.

Based on your comments, it sounds like you might be in the market for a Homer by Powell Motors.

Does it have Rack and Peanut steering?

You gotta have excellent personal hygiene for one of those!

I mean, the Hummer EV is basically the Canyonero.

> I've been a Tesla owner for a couple of years and I am anxious to sell it. I no longer want to be associated with that company.

Why?

The company I worked for just released a new non-contact scanner with accuracy similar to a laser tracker. The only potential automotive companies that have expressed interest so far are EV only.

The whole entire car market is a disaster. Used car prices are still insane and non-EV dealer markups are still insane. Moreover I've heard anecdotal reports of serious quality issues with most cars that were released during the pandemic. It really sucks.

Anxiety, hate, “disaster”... it’s a 50k luxury item. People who “hate” iPhones evoke the same response from me: being bored at your rich toys is gross.

I also own a Tesla and it’s the best car I’ve ever driven. Was it worth the money? God no, I’m going back to buying Hondas like I used to, but I’m certainly not filled with disgust over what the vast majority of humans would consider an insane luxury. Would I prioritize phone support a bit more if I was the CEO? Sure... but I'm not seething over it.

You have to be pretty unaware of how difficult it is to accomplish almost anything to be so full of disgust at so many doing so much.

I can vouch for the Lucid being excellent and I'd say the touring is the pick of the range. If you want to switch away from Tesla it is an excellent option, as is the Polestar (if you don't need the same mix of range/performance/space as the Lucid).

I just bought a new Camry hybrid. Gives me 60+ total mpg without any fuss. I’m learning how to drive it to maximize electric use.

My first pick was a Prius prime but those were on a huge back order. Having a 25 mile electric range is perfect for us.

A Camry is not an EV and I have no interest in burning fossils ever again.

Edit: I can't reply to comments under this, I don't know why, so let me just add here: Yes, I know that the manufacture of any vehicle produces unwanted byproducts. That doesn't mean they're all equally bad. My electricity comes from completely renewable sources, and none of my money goes to the oil industry. Those issues are important to me. I don't need lecturing on how I've got it all wrong.

Unfortunately many fossils will be burnt in the production of any EV, the shipping of it, and (most likely) the fuel used to power it.

Don’t get me wrong, EVs are great (my parents own two that run off-grid on solar), but the absolutist mentality of a lot of the EV community about “fossil fuels” is counterproductive.

We should be encouraging as many realistic countermeasures as we can — priuses, EVs, hydrogen, hybrids, whatever! The less fossil fuels being burned the better!!!

It's not exactly unreasonable to be absolutist about the fossil fuel burners you actually have control over, and the technology really has gotten to where you no longer need to ever use things like gas powered lawn mowers weed wackers chain saws cars motorcycles etc. It's not harmful to choose in electric form in an absolutist manner, if you must have those things at all.

Hydrogen cars will require fossil fuels to be manufactured, same with hybrids. EVs have a smaller carbon footprint than both over their lifetime.

No duh, current manufacturing is done with fossil fuels. Everybody knows that. So what's the point of a comment like this, other than to downplay how important EVs are going to be at solving the climate crisis?

The point is that we should encourage people to buy hybrid and highly fuel efficient cars over gas guzzlers. Many people who can’t afford EVs could afford the alternatives.

Someone driving a 45mpg Mitsubishi Mirage (a tiny car with a low manufacturing footprint, and the cheapest in the US) around town once in a while is a lot better than someone driving a GMC Suburban.

Click on the time stamp of the comment you want to reply to and you should be able to reply, unless you've been recently rate limited.

driving a non plug in hybrid to maximize electric use is not the goal, the goal is to minimize fuel use. The former is at odds with the latter.

Can you actually use just the electric? I owned a 2016 Toyota Avalon hybrid that had the option to be electric only, but whenever I tried to engage that option, it gave me an error that I was either going too fast or too slow. I could get it to work for very short stretches (maybe 50 feet), but it would always disengage almost as soon as I turned it on. This was the biggest reason I sold the car.

Toyota hybrids are fairly parallel in their designed operation. However, you should have been able to get that Avalon up to ~47mph on electric alone with a (very) light foot, no grade, and a full battery. It doesn’t really matter though, Toyota hybrids are always using the electric motors to do part of the work even when the engine is on. EV mode is more of a psychological thing in hybrid cars, it isn’t more efficient. (If anything it’s less efficient) If you want to operate in EV in broad circumstances, you are looking for a plug-in hybrid.

I wonder if any of the plug-in hybrids have some form of "going home" mode where they try to arrive home with a nearly empty battery.

Just put it in EV mode when you leave the house, and once again when you're coming up your street on the way back.

EVs are not yet competitive with gas cars, as battery manufacturing needs more ramp up / development to mature. Every company is forced to take shortcuts with EVs right now, and it will be like this for a few years, but I expect the shortcuts to decrease over time.

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