Lucid recalls all of its 2022 Air EVs | Hacker News Reader

Lucid recalls all of its 2022 Air EVs

engadget.com

81 pointslxm149 comments

It’s unfortunate since Lucid was supposed to be “Tesla, but with adults in the room” and so far.. this is actually their second full production recall.

A few months ago they recalled ~500 vehicles which at the time was basically all they had made, for a serious suspension issue. Yes, again, only a small % actually had the defect, but they were all recalled in for inspection.

I really really want Lucid to succeed, as a 2018 Model 3 owner, the Lucid Air is a more interesting upgrade to me than a Model S/X.. with the stalkless yoke, crazy acceleration but underpowered brakes, etc.

However I do not want to be an alpha tester at this price point, and am not going to be a buyer until theres a service center a reasonable distance, and 1000s of cars on the road. Lucid is still publicly stating a now reduced target of 12-14k 2022 deliveries, but we are 5 months into the year and they have maybe delivered 2k at best. They’ll be lucky if they deliver half their goal.

They can probably flounder for a while given the level of Saudi funding, much like Rivian can with the Amazon funding..

At the $100k price range the MB EQS or Porsche Taycan are pretty cool, but hard to get hold of.. and you are back dealing the the old boys network of dealers. Lots of stories of people being asked to pay 5-figure dealer markups since they know they can get away with it.

The sweet spot might be the Genesis GV60 which is basically a luxxed up Ioniq 5 with every luxury feature you could imagine thrown in, instead of offered as $1-2k options each. While the Koreans are trying to sell the US on the concept of a luxury Korean vehicle, they are basically throwing the kitchen sink of features in. Stuff like Active Noise Cancellation, Vehicle to Load charging, all the fancy drivers aids, maximally adjustable/heated/cooled seats…

I’d give them a chance. Then doing a full recall is the responsible move and in the long run should establish confidence. I doubt Tesla would have done a full recall for something as “trivial” as the displays sometimes failing. In fact I’m pretty sure Elon knew this was a problem with Teslas from the get-go (the displays were not up to spec) and shipped the cars anyway and made everyone sign an NDA who had an issue.

I think the precariousness of Tesla, horrible service network, and months wait times on repair parts well into the 2019-2020 pre-pandemic time frame should chasten anyone who wants to buy an EV from an even smaller firm who are 5-8 years behind Tesla on the growth curve!

What's the deal with the service network? I've only had good experiences. In one instance they sent a tech out in a service vehicle and in other cases they either gave me a loaner or a $100 Uber voucher (due to the pandemic parts shortage, my car shipped without some non-essential components--it was that or wait until they had the parts before accepting delivery).

It's hit or miss. Mobile techs coming to replace small things like filters/charge ports/etc are great if you are in range.

If you have an accident and are waiting months on a body panel - not great. In this case your insurance probably helps with a rental.

On other warranty type service, being stuck with $100/day Uber credits for a week or two since its near impossible to secure a loaner at the NYC area service centers sucks if you bought a car because you wanted a car, not an Uber. I went into service center in 2018 for an annoying rattle on delivery, ~2019 rear motor go out, and ~2020 HW3 upgrade. Mobile techs did a 2020 charge port repair and 2021 air filter replace/duct cleaning.

I do have some glass work I've been sitting on since 2021 because I don't want to deal with being carless for a couple days.

So lower maintenance than an ICE, but in under 4 years I have have 5-6 service interactions of which 2 were show stoppers.

That makes sense. I've always had same-day fixes, but that's because I never had a critical failure (so I could come in when they had parts on hand).

These seem like normal growing pains for a new car company. It’s a brutal learning curve!

They just have to make it through this curve before running out of money and positive brand association.

100% - I want Lucid & Rivian to succeed, I just don't want to spend 80-150K to be their beta tester. People vastly under estimate how hard scaling is. Tesla was producing ~5-10K cars for many years before they hit the 100K level with the Model 3. It could be 5 years for Lucid & Rivian to become regularly available, serviceable car brands like Tesla just started to become in say 2019 or so.

I personally don't think anyone should be taking on a loan / spending any large % of their income buying from them and planning for them to be your primary vehicle. They are sufficiently low volume & high risk to remain rich man toys for a while!

Even when I bought in 2018 it felt a bit unsteady, with plenty of valid rumors they were going to fold.. including Musk later saying they were days away from bankruptcy during the Model 3 ramp up!

In fairness, Tesla had to solve all of the hard problems from scratch. They paved the way for other EV manufacturers, so those other manufacturers should have an easier time.

The crazy thing is that Lucid & Rivian were only founded a few years after Tesla..

So while in theory it should be easier now, I don’t think it has been in practice

Exactly. It's played out at virtually every EV manufacturer, regardless of their experience. General Motors, for example:

GM advising some Bolt EV owners to park 50 feet away from other cars in case of fire

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/09/15/gm-advising-some-bolt-ev-own...

People love to dig on Tesla, but they're through the gauntlet & emerging out the other side -- easily a multi-year headstart. Everyone else still has a lot of pain to endure...

The Bolt recall isn't a GM issue, it's a LG battery issue. Which... GM isn't the only company using LG batteries. The Hyundai Kona, for example, got hit with a similar recall. Ditto the Chrysler Pacifica Hybrid. Ditto some home batteries. I'd be unsurprised if Ford has to do one for the Mach-E.

Many components of the traditional automakers' vehicles are outsourced to common suppliers. That doesn't give them a free pass when the vehicle doesn't perform as desired -- it's a product defect regardless of which supplier owns the root cause.

That becomes their problem when the headline reads “Bolt Burns Down Home and Dog”

Making cars is very hard--cut them some slack.

This is not a great time to buy any efficient car. Things were easing until gas prices jumped up ... and the recent lockdowns in China probably haven't helped.

It's a good idea to wait for a more opportune time if you can.

It is very hard, and theres a different between cutting them slack and writing them a $150K check :-) !

It's not entirely clear they are going to ramp up faster or better than Tesla.

There are already credible leaks that they have followed some of the Tesla playbook - running out to Home Depot for "parts" and enlisting white collar office staff for help in final assembly..

> This is not a great time to buy any efficient car.

If you're not limited to luxury, there are plenty of options.

>taycan

Porsche already had 9 recalls for things like suspension, brakes, lights, full power loss, then there is this:

"“Six out of ten Porsche Taycan” ever delivered have a problem with battery management that affects and damages battery cells, requires replacement of cells and batteries, and is causing vehicle fires, according to a source working at Porsche's headquarters in Zuffenhausen, Germany.Dec 1, 2021"

Yes but a Porsche/MB/Tesla recall is me taking my car to a shop within 30min or less of my home (or in Tesla case, mobile tech comes to me most often).

With Lucid, it's still unclear they even have a service center anywhere on the east coast yet. There are 2 scheduled for northeast in "summer" and "fall".

Lucid & Rivian have still delivered something like 10-15 cars in all of NY state vs 600+ Taycans (who yes has had a multi-year head start on sales and decades head start on service network).

Tesla went through the same exact phase, relying mostly on mobile technicians where possible. Some Tesla owners were without their cars for months waiting on available service capacity and parts.

Yes that's kind of my point through the thread. If people point to Tesla's service as inadequate in 2020-2022, imagine how it was in 2015.. and you have Lucid/Rivian.

> you are back dealing the the old boys network of dealers.

We are still toward the end of the early adoption phase, but in the long run, the established brands is where EVs take hold. In 5 years everyone will be able to roll up to that network and drive home in an EV the same day, if not sooner, and take advantage of that network for service, etc.

Exactly this. As much as people bitch about dealerships, and some of them truly do suck, the business model is well established and clearly successful. The newer EV startups are just converging on having the same model by a different name.

It’s great to have a service network. It sucks having to haggle with these clowns when buying a car. Direct sales you get price transparency. Even dealers showing inventory online neglect to mention that they want a $10K ADM until you try to buy the thing in person. Or only if you buy $5K in accessories. Or only if you finance. Or only if you get some BS extended warranty/service contract, etc

I agree that some dealers are pretty shady. Some are great. Knowing in advance which one you're dealing with is close to impossible.

I don't set foot in a dealer any more without working the deal first by e-mail. Then I bring in the purchase contract and pick up the car. No last minute fun surprises. I've also had fairly good success looking the finance manager in the eye and telling them point blank I will only be wasting their time by repeating 'no' if they insist on asking questions, just give me the final paper to sign and the keys to the car. "I will be modding it, I care not about your extended warranty, kthxbye"

> As much as people bitch about dealerships, and some of them truly do suck, the business model is well established and clearly successful.

So the Lindy effect sort of suggests the dealerships will be around for a while - but the real revenue model of a dealership is the return customer for services.

The main change with EVs is unpredictable on that side - one, they don't need a lot of periodic maintenance (like regen cuts brake wear for highway driving), but on the other hand there are almost no user-serviceable EVs & I doubt there will be any in the near future.

So I wish the dealership model goes the way of the travel agent one. It's not that travel agents weren't useful or successful, but that without one more people bought tickets and flew to places.

From that PoV, I think the model might converge closer to Carvana or Shift rather than a traditional dealership with loaned inventory (or Roadster.com). Especially when the car I want to buy is actually in Sacramento and only needs to be on a truck to a city when I want it.

What is the charger network like for non-Teslas in the US, and how do the ranges realistically compare?

The Tesla network is still better, but the non-Tesla network is adequate and growing faster. There have been teething problems on the chargers, but it seems like that has improved over time.

A number of EVs have similar range to Teslas. Some of the older ones that began life as compliance cars are a little low. But even a Bolt, which basically costs half what a Tesla does, has about 260 miles range. Though in my experience the Bolt more often estimates range accurately where my Tesla consistently overestimated range by a good margin (I had a P3D, which is likely most of the reason why).

Yup. Depends on region. In NYC area, Tesla supercharger network still has more locations and way more chargers per location than the CCS networks. Further, Tesla continues to expand as fast or faster than EA’s CCS network.

Range is funny because Tesla on paper is the best, but in reality they tend to overstate by 10-20% whereas some other makers understate by 20%.

So for example many have seen a 220mi Taycan and a 310mi Model 3 get the same range in real world.

You really have to read a range of websites tests between models to compare.

Another interesting facet will be how the batteries age. Some early EVs didn’t cool their packs well and degraded fast. Some makers sort of overprovision their packs with capacity you can’t use, in theory if that is released by software as you age then the impact is lower.

For example on a Tesla you are likely to see 2-3% loss per year. That means a 2018 310mi Model 3 now only charges to a claimed 280mi. Then detract 15% for real world use since they overpromise, bad weather impacts, only wanting to charge to 80/90%, only wanting to go down to say 5-10%.. and you are probably stopping every 180mi.

I have a 2018 model 3 with 35k miles and capacity is at 300mi fully charged. At least that one data point is better than what you suggest.

Mine only charges to 280mi now and I am at way fewer miles, so YMMV. I think its region dependent, maybe my car got more hot/cold cycles, etc being parked outdoors in NYC for years.

Yeah, mine was in ideal conditions (bay area, garage) so that could definitely be a factor.

There being recalls kinda feels like it lends credence to the 'Tesla but with adults in the room' sentiment.

Consumer EVs are still an emerging technology relative to combustion vehicles, and so you're bound to be an "alpha" or "beta" tester to some degree. I would hope, however, that the attitude towards defects would be to identify them as such and recall rather than slapping a #WONTFIX on it which I feel is what I hear often from Tesla owners.

Especially considering all the problems Teslas have been having. Seems like every week I read about someone being locked in a burning car or the autopilot driving into a pile of schoolchildren or something.

I've been a Tesla owner for a couple of years and I am anxious to sell it. I no longer want to be associated with that company.

I've had my eyes on the Lucid Air Touring as my next car, but stuff like this doesn't instill confidence. The absolute disaster that is Tesla's build quality and servicing is one of the reasons I'm switching in the first place!

The whole EV market is a disaster right now. If you want an EV from a "mainstream" manufacturer, be prepared to pay enormous dealer markups and be bullied into upgrades.

I hate it.

> If you want an EV from a "mainstream" manufacturer, be prepared to pay enormous dealer markups

Just a year ago people were getting GM/Chevy Bolt's out the door for $19k - $25k. Granted, those did have battery recalls. Might be worse price-wise now though as it looks like even 2 years old ones are selling for more than that on my local craiglist.

https://www.reddit.com/r/BoltEV/comments/ms9qbp/2021_bolt_pr...

https://www.reddit.com/r/BoltEV/comments/lff7ff/a_data_point...

My father was once a car dealer and is a pro Long-Island style negotiator — he walked out the door with a fully loaded Bolt for 22k in CA, about a year ago.

The Chevy Bolt and Chevy Spark are great cars.

I just sat my laptop on the counter and fact checked what they told me in real time, told them what I’d pay, and got a stellar deal.

I got a Gen 2 Volt in late 2020 for $19k, low mileage and top trim. Great car that hasn't given me any trouble and more than takes care of my commute with its battery.

I love driving my 22 Bolt but the battery is software capped at 80% capacity as a temporary fix and they cannot tell when I’ll get a new battery. So I’d say get a Nissan Leaf and avoid Bolt until GM gets their shit together.

A Bolt capped at 80% still has way more range than a Leaf and not much less range than a Leaf Plus.

The low end Leaf costs much less, and I bought the Bolt for the greater range, which I don’t have now. The extended range Leaf is what is I’d buy today. As an owner of a Bolt I think I have a fairly well informed opinion.

Dealers can't sell new cars under recall. If they can sell you a new one, it's got a new battery and doesn't have the capacity cap.

I just bought a new Camry hybrid. Gives me 60+ total mpg without any fuss. I’m learning how to drive it to maximize electric use.

My first pick was a Prius prime but those were on a huge back order. Having a 25 mile electric range is perfect for us.

A Camry is not an EV and I have no interest in burning fossils ever again.

Edit: I can't reply to comments under this, I don't know why, so let me just add here: Yes, I know that the manufacture of any vehicle produces unwanted byproducts. That doesn't mean they're all equally bad. My electricity comes from completely renewable sources, and none of my money goes to the oil industry. Those issues are important to me. I don't need lecturing on how I've got it all wrong.

Unfortunately many fossils will be burnt in the production of any EV, the shipping of it, and (most likely) the fuel used to power it.

Don’t get me wrong, EVs are great (my parents own two that run off-grid on solar), but the absolutist mentality of a lot of the EV community about “fossil fuels” is counterproductive.

We should be encouraging as many realistic countermeasures as we can — priuses, EVs, hydrogen, hybrids, whatever! The less fossil fuels being burned the better!!!

It's not exactly unreasonable to be absolutist about the fossil fuel burners you actually have control over, and the technology really has gotten to where you no longer need to ever use things like gas powered lawn mowers weed wackers chain saws cars motorcycles etc. It's not harmful to choose in electric form in an absolutist manner, if you must have those things at all.

Hydrogen cars will require fossil fuels to be manufactured, same with hybrids. EVs have a smaller carbon footprint than both over their lifetime.

No duh, current manufacturing is done with fossil fuels. Everybody knows that. So what's the point of a comment like this, other than to downplay how important EVs are going to be at solving the climate crisis?

The point is that we should encourage people to buy hybrid and highly fuel efficient cars over gas guzzlers. Many people who can’t afford EVs could afford the alternatives.

Someone driving a 45mpg Mitsubishi Mirage (a tiny car with a low manufacturing footprint, and the cheapest in the US) around town once in a while is a lot better than someone driving a GMC Suburban.

Click on the time stamp of the comment you want to reply to and you should be able to reply, unless you've been recently rate limited.

driving a non plug in hybrid to maximize electric use is not the goal, the goal is to minimize fuel use. The former is at odds with the latter.

Can you actually use just the electric? I owned a 2016 Toyota Avalon hybrid that had the option to be electric only, but whenever I tried to engage that option, it gave me an error that I was either going too fast or too slow. I could get it to work for very short stretches (maybe 50 feet), but it would always disengage almost as soon as I turned it on. This was the biggest reason I sold the car.

Toyota hybrids are fairly parallel in their designed operation. However, you should have been able to get that Avalon up to ~47mph on electric alone with a (very) light foot, no grade, and a full battery. It doesn’t really matter though, Toyota hybrids are always using the electric motors to do part of the work even when the engine is on. EV mode is more of a psychological thing in hybrid cars, it isn’t more efficient. (If anything it’s less efficient) If you want to operate in EV in broad circumstances, you are looking for a plug-in hybrid.

I wonder if any of the plug-in hybrids have some form of "going home" mode where they try to arrive home with a nearly empty battery.

Just put it in EV mode when you leave the house, and once again when you're coming up your street on the way back.

The whole entire car market is a disaster. Used car prices are still insane and non-EV dealer markups are still insane. Moreover I've heard anecdotal reports of serious quality issues with most cars that were released during the pandemic. It really sucks.

The company I worked for just released a new non-contact scanner with accuracy similar to a laser tracker. The only potential automotive companies that have expressed interest so far are EV only.

Based on your comments, it sounds like you might be in the market for a Homer by Powell Motors.

Does it have Rack and Peanut steering?

You gotta have excellent personal hygiene for one of those!

I mean, the Hummer EV is basically the Canyonero.

I’m surprised Polestar hasn’t been mentioned. While not mainstream—yet—the PS2 is a great car. We definitely had teething issues (software mostly) with the Launch Edition, but Polestar’s Android Automative implementation has got more solid in the last year.

Polestar and Volvo both have excellent EVs. Audi's e-tron models, ditto. The EQS, same.

BMW's i4 and iX just came out, both of which appear to blow Tesla out of the fucking water.

Hyundai's Ioniq 5, so far getting rave reviews from owners that match the press.

The Ford Mach-E is having a bit of teething issues reportedly (cooling related, I think?) but I see them all over the place.

The Ford Lightning has sold out several years worth of production.

GM has the Ultium platform in production (Hummer) which will soon serve as the base for a number of models. The Equinox EV is in testing and everyone's guess is that they will sell better than hotcakes unless GM manages to fuck it up. Hopefully they call all the "fuck it up" out of their system with the Bolt.

VW right now is trailing the pack. The IQ4 by all accounts was a huge swing and a miss, which is inexcusable coming from one of the world's largest car companies. They tried to "re-imagine" "the car" on a basic level and failed miserably. For example: it automatically turns on/off. No power/start switch. Just get in, use the "gear" selector, and drive. Ditto for stoping. Sounds great, right? Except if you come out of the driver's seat for even a second (as is common when backing up) the car thinks you're "leaving" and almost immediately shuts itself off. Then they had to go and infantilize the climate control system. I wish I were joking when you tap a "I'm cold" button or "I can't see out the windshield" to get things to happen. Apparently VW's IQ team thinks people are absolute imbeciles.

blow tesla out of the water how? also telsas have the same (similar?) keyless/buttonless system as the VW (though it just parks, doesn't shut off the car)

Every review of the i4 says that it has the fit and finish that you expect with a BMW. Obviously there are other criteria that matter, like range, etc, that Tesla is still in the lead. However the compromises you may need to make with the a Tesla are becoming less tolerable as you see more options in the market. Tesla's lead will not hold.

I would take those reviews with a big grain of salt; those reviewers are in tight with legacy auto manufacturers (I forget which, but one of the big auto magazines didn't even include Tesla in their rankings for top 2022 EVs).

Also, surely "range" is one of the dominating factors in purchasing an EV, right? I'll tolerate some fit and finish issues so long as I don't have to stop to charge every hour (assuming I can even find a charger).

I believe other auto manufacturers will eventually catch up, but not until they catch up on range and charging network.

> Also, surely "range" is one of the dominating factors in purchasing an EV, right?

Definitely true when the range was around 100 or 150 miles. Less true when the range is closer to 300.

> I'll tolerate some fit and finish issues so long as I don't have to stop to charge every hour (assuming I can even find a charger).

Are there any Tesla competitors that have so little range that they need to be charged every hour?

> Definitely true when the range was around 100 or 150 miles. Less true when the range is closer to 300.

300 rated miles is closer to 200 actual miles when you account for cold weather, head winds, and not charging to 100% at each station along the route (usually you only charge to ~60-80%). If you're only driving around town, that's fine, but road trips are going to suck below 300 (visiting family in another state during the holidays?) especially if your charging network sucks (even on Tesla's network there are some butt-clenching stretches).

> Are there any Tesla competitors that have so little range that they need to be charged every hour?

I'm pretty sure my Model Y needs to be charged every couple of hours of highway driving in the winter (maybe even less? I'm not sure) and its rated for ~320 miles. Based on that, I would guess that some of the 200-250 rated cars are coming in pretty close to charging every hour. Whether it's an hour or an hour and twenty minutes, I'm not interested.

Sure, I get that winter affects things — I wasn't referring to the worst-case scenario for charging. People who road-trip in cold weather (and don't have a second vehicle) will continue to care about max range for longer than other folks. In warmer parts of the country/world, I think range anxiety/concern will tail off pretty soon.

There are other valid concerns of course; where I live, issues with the electric grid make it dicey to have only EVs.

> In warmer parts of the country/world, I think range anxiety/concern will tail off pretty soon.

Even the warmer parts of the country get pretty cold (it was 20 degrees all over the southwest when I roadtripped in January). If you live near a coast maybe it's mild enough that you won't notice it. I'll hazard a (probably ignorant) guess, but I would think most of the reliably-warm world is either too poor for an EV or they don't have reliable electricity or both.

Also, surely "range" is one of the dominating factors in purchasing an EV, right? I'll tolerate some fit and finish issues so long as I don't have to stop to charge every hour (assuming I can even find a charger).

No, for the same reason that "size of gas tank" isn't a dominant factor in purchasing an ICE vehicle. Modern EVs don't need to be charged every hour, unless you're planning on getting the Hummer EV.

Tesla does have a superior charging network. However, several other cars have better range than Tesla.

> No, for the same reason that "size of gas tank" isn't a dominant factor in purchasing an ICE vehicle.

Gas tank size doesn’t matter because it takes 2 minutes to fill a tank and there are gas stations every few miles. The EV situation is at least an order of magnitude worse in both cases. It’s a completely different game.

Range is important, but the differences diminish once we get above 250 or 300 miles. Especially for what may be typical, where you charge nightly at home. Those who regularly drive for a living may have a different perspective.

Looking past reviews and whatnot, I can't ignore some of the bigger safety concerns, like randomly catching on fire. An extra 20 or 30 miles of range is irrelevant in that case. (to be fair, maybe that's a general EV issue, and Tesla is known only because of the volume of that market they own)

I don’t drive for a living—on the contrary, I work from home. But I do make a lot of trips out of state—we have a lot of family in a 5-7 hour radius, not to mention regional recreational traveling. Realistically a 5 hour drive is 6 hours with 2 charging stops and my car is rated for 330 miles. A 7 hour drive is probably at least 8.5 hours. It’s considerably worse in the winter. I would never want to drop down to 250 miles of range.

Many of those same sites rank Tesla highly as well. Knowing how Tesla uses NDAs as a tool, I wouldn't be surprised if there's gaming there as well.

I'm pretty sure all of those cars are far less efficient in the miles per kwh sense than their tesla counterparts. Which is a shame.

It does look like the Model 3 has a decent lead in efficiency:

https://ev-database.uk/compare/efficiency-electric-vehicle-m...

Probably not BMW. They actually beat Tesla to market with high-efficiency, switched-reluctance designs (someone please correct me if I'm wrong here, I think that's what the tech is called), and have an uncanny ability to design low coefficients of drag.

I have an ID4 and I've had a great experience with it. The car only thinks you're leaving if your butt is off the seat and the driver side door is open. With the climate controls, there is a 'smart climate' and a 'classic climate' view. The 'smart climate' options aren't as bad as you suggest either.

My only real gripes with it are the laggy infotainment system and meh mobile app.

> BMW's i4 and iX just came out, both of which appear to blow Tesla out of the fucking water.

In what sense does it blow Tesla out of the water? A Model 3 gets 334 miles of range and it MSRPs at $49K--the most you can get out of BMW seems to be 315 and it costs almost double.

> The Ford Lightning has sold out several years worth of production.

That only speaks to Ford's marketing.

> GM has the Ultium platform in production (Hummer) which will soon serve as the base for a number of models.

Personally I'm not keen on a 9klb car.

> Just get in, use the "gear" selector, and drive.

Tesla has had that for a while now, and it works pretty well. I'm not sure why you'd "come out of the driver's seat" while backing up, but my Tesla doesn't shut off.

> Then they had to go and infantilize the climate control system. I wish I were joking when you tap a "I'm cold" button or "I can't see out the windshield" to get things to happen. Apparently VW's IQ team thinks people are absolute imbeciles.

Tesla probably beats them for the stupidest climate control system. If anyone in the car wants to adjust their seat heaters, it automatically turns on the heat or A/C, so you have to open up the climate control menu (which automatically turns on heat or A/C), adjust seat heaters, turn off the heat/AC, and then close the menu.

Similarly, the defrost buttons always turn the fan up to the max (and you can't turn it back down) and they also turn up either heat or AC to the max as well. So you're getting blasted in the face with either super hot air or super cold air, so in practice you toggle it on until you're uncomfortable, then turn it off, then wait for the windshield to fog up again, and repeat.

As if that weren't enough, there's no way to tell it to warm up or cool down, you have to set the exact temperature. So I guess you're supposed to carry a thermostat with you so you know what temperature it is currently, and then you can turn on your climate control and tell Tesla to make it a little warmer or colder.

To your point on the Model 3, I think you forgot to unselect the 'including incentives' button on the Model 3. The actual MSRP for the 356 mi (not 334, 334 is with the 19" wheels) Model 3 is $56k.

In comparison, the i4 is 55k MSRP for the base one, certain not double the price (at least, at MSRP).

That said, I see some things I see as important differences at those MSRP points:

* Model 3 has their basic autopilot included in that price. BMW for adaptive cruise features and parking adds another $2400. Also, BMW assistant seems much, much more limited than the Tesla system based on the description.

* Model 3 includes their 'premium' audio, that's another $875 from BMW.

* Model 3 includes heated seats/steering wheel, lumbar support, etc. That's a $950 add-on from BMW.

* BMW offers ventilated front seats, which is not offered by Tesla on the Model 3; that said, it's a $350 option. plus requires the $1.5k leather option as well.

* Model 3 is AWD. BMW is RWD only. AWD only comes on the m50 model, which also has lower range (and more expensive by 10k)

* Model 3 is much faster (5.4 for BMW, 4.2 for Tesla)

* BMW allows 4 different synthetic color choices for free. Model 3 non-black (white) is a $1000. BMW also offers leather colorways for $1500

* BMW offers dash trim options for free. Tesla one is tied to their seat color choice

* Fancy headlights are $1000 extra from BMW. Standard with a Tesla

* "Drive recorder" is $100 from BMW. Free w/ Tesla

Some of those are pretty substantial differences, and may be another $5k on top. That's also not counting any potential dealer markups that might be in place.

You can argue about BMW vs Tesla quality, but if you're purely talking feature-set, Tesla seems to be winning handily. That said, there are certain things that may be really important to a BMW buyer (colorways, customization) that just are not offered by Tesla and could be a deal-breaker.

> To your point on the Model 3, I think you forgot to unselect the 'including incentives' button on the Model 3. The actual MSRP for the 356 mi (not 334, 334 is with the 19" wheels) Model 3 is $56k.

You're correct, I did forget to unselect that option.

> In comparison, the i4 is 55k MSRP for the base one, certain not double the price (at least, at MSRP).

The i4 gets less range. The max range option is the iX, and that only gets 315.

Your options comparison was interesting, although I don't much like adaptive cruise control or lane assist on my model Y (phantom braking) and would pay more to have a standard cruise control option--it's pretty nice that BWM offers it for free!

The BMW iX is a crossover/SUV. A fairer comparison of that car is the Model X, which is much more closely priced to the iX. The Model Y, although cheaper, isn't really the same size car so the X is a closer comparison. And then you're neck-and-neck in pricing (assuming MSRP) for those two.

Agreed, but my requirement is max range, not comparable class. The only way to get 315 miles of range out of BMW is to spend $100k.

I'm with you there. The Polestar 2 is an absolutely excellent competitor to the Model 3, along with the Ioniq 5 and EV6. In my testing I found the PS2 to be more fun than the others and vastly more comfortable than a Model 3, but less practical than the Ioniq 5 or EV6 due to using an adapted platform instead of bespoke. That said, if you don't need a ton of range or room the Polestar is a total blast in the dual motor trim! I was seriously tempted by it.

I have wanted to test drive a Polestar 2, but of course you can't just go to any Volvo dealership to do that and the nearest Polestar dealership to me is at least 6 hours away (which seems a bit much for just a test drive).

I guess Geely and the Volvo Car Group is hoping to sink the Volvo badge because presumably they have to cross-license with the original Volvo Automotive Group (now entirely focused on trucking)? The Volvo/Polestar switch/split seems goofy/weird and doesn't give a lot of confidence in either brand right now, in addition to over-complicating the dealership networks.

VW and Ford dealers seem to be honoring MSRP with pre-ordered ID.4 and Mach-e, but you need to order and wait for delivery which takes up to 9 months right now. The cars are the lot today available to buy (often abandoned pre-orders but also dealer orders) are being marked up.

> Ford dealers seem to be honoring MSRP with pre-ordered Mach-e

That's, like, the opposite of truth. In other words: a lie.

https://www.tesmanian.com/blogs/tesmanian-blog/ford-dealersh...

Majority of dealerships will always act in their self-interest and therefore heavily mark-up cars that are in demand.

Only dealership-free new entrants like Tesla / Rivian / Lucid have a single, no-haggling price.

That's for cars on the lot. Your article says nothing about pre-ordered vehicles. The ID.4 I ordered is MSRP because ordered it months ago. Similar for a pre-ordered Mach E from people I know who have bought them that way lately.

The dealer markup for cars on lot sucks, that much I agree with, and that's down to the power of traditional dealerships and and of course supply and demand.

It's generally unwise, and explicitly against the guidelines on this site, to call someone a liar.

Ford cracked down on that practice months ago. (https://www.foxbusiness.com/lifestyle/ford-cracking-down-3-6..., https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/companies/ford-gm-are-cracki...)

I can confirm that at least at my dealer. Just bought a Mach E this week that I ordered the first week of October of last year. Got it at the MSRP at the time of order, not purchase. The salesman was telling me that the guy he was helping before me took over an abandoned pre order and paid 10k of dealer markup for that privilege.

EVs are not yet competitive with gas cars, as battery manufacturing needs more ramp up / development to mature. Every company is forced to take shortcuts with EVs right now, and it will be like this for a few years, but I expect the shortcuts to decrease over time.

> I've been a Tesla owner for a couple of years and I am anxious to sell it. I no longer want to be associated with that company.

Why?

I can vouch for the Lucid being excellent and I'd say the touring is the pick of the range. If you want to switch away from Tesla it is an excellent option, as is the Polestar (if you don't need the same mix of range/performance/space as the Lucid).

> If you want an EV from a "mainstream" manufacturer, be prepared to pay enormous dealer markups and be bullied into upgrades.

Tesla has plenty of things about them to criticize, but one thing they did well was the buying experience. They cut out all the bullshit that dealers put you through.

It took me five minutes to purchase my car online. When delivery day came, just had to sign a couple DMV forms, add my phone as a key, and I was done.

No bullshit upselling, no haggling on the price, just get online, fill out the forms, and done.

Anxiety, hate, “disaster”... it’s a 50k luxury item. People who “hate” iPhones evoke the same response from me: being bored at your rich toys is gross.

I also own a Tesla and it’s the best car I’ve ever driven. Was it worth the money? God no, I’m going back to buying Hondas like I used to, but I’m certainly not filled with disgust over what the vast majority of humans would consider an insane luxury. Would I prioritize phone support a bit more if I was the CEO? Sure... but I'm not seething over it.

You have to be pretty unaware of how difficult it is to accomplish almost anything to be so full of disgust at so many doing so much.

Just make a ducking dumb electric car already! We don’t need 4 screens in every car. Mirrors, speedometer, battery gauge. CarPlay/android auto as an accessory.

I will say that Kia niro ev came pretty close to this.

So basically we need a mass produced equivalent of this:

https://www.motorauthority.com/news/1134053_1978-ford-f-100-...

I'm on board.

I would trade in my Mustang for this and I'm not even a truck guy.

I was going to suggest the Bollinger B1, but it's gone from Bollinger's website so I don't know whether it even exists anymore.

Yeah, they pivoted to commercial truck chassis. My guess is after the F150 lightning was announced, large fractions of their consumer market share basically stampeded over yonder.

That's a shame, because as you've pointed out, it was a perfect balance of a modern EV powertrain with classic simple function. For the dozens of us who'd prioritize that above all else, it was a perfect fit, but I don't think we're big enough market.

I have no idea why you're shouting at clouds about this in a discussion about a car targeting the mid-high luxury market. They're going after Model S and Mercedes EQS market share. The luxury market has gone toward using lots of screens. If you're not in the market for a $100,000 car, this has no effect on, or relevancy to, you.

> I will say that Kia niro ev came pretty close to this.

A friend has a Kia Niro and bought it specifically because of how loaded it was with features and gadgets for the price. It has a veritable sea of buttons on the wheel and center console, and two screens. Come on, dude.

If you want a basic EV, the Chevy Bolt is about the closest you'll likely get. With no options it'll come with very few "toys."

The whole "why don't they make a very basic car" has been rehashed over and over here and elsewhere. There's no market. Most of the expense is in development, emissions, crash testing, and tooling - not tacking on bits and bobs. People want bits and bobs, which is why they pay lots of extra money for them.

The whole "why touch screens" has been rehashed over and over as well. Touch screens are cheap to manufacture, can be heavily reused (Ford uses the same small handful of screens in a number of its vehicles for example), easily localized, and can be updated in functionality. Yes, they're terrible from a UX standpoint. Car companies don't care.

One day we'll have a thriving EV upgrade market. Then you can take your old dumb car and drive out with a modern EV.

It already exists, but the way combustion cars are built is just completely opposed to how you build an EV. You end up with a really crappy EV (specifically, in range) that still costs $20k+ now. In the future maybe that'll be $10k, but that's still a LOT to stomach for something that is going to underperform a dedicated EV.

You’re right. I guess I’m just frustrated. Been waiting for an ev for four years. In my defense tho the niro screen is mostly for entertainment. I rented it for three days and only used screen mirroring/android car on it. I test drive the Tesla and I don’t think you could get away with not touching the screen on a drive

I don't want a luxury car and I don't want a very basic car. I want something that exactly replicates the functionality of my 24-year-old Range Rover. No laser-eye-surgery-bright screens, no touch panels, no always-connected-phones-home telematics, just four big squashy seats, a really loud stereo, and the capability to be just as happy flat out on the motorway as climbing up a trackless mountain, pulling a 3.5 tonne trailer.

I don't give the tiniest amount of a shit about having the 0-60 time of a bomb going off. I never ever need to accelerate from a standstill to 60mph as fast as possible, and I can't imagine a situation outside of drag racing where I'd need to. I don't feel much of a need to ask Alexa to turn on the windscreen wipers. If you want to travel but not actually touch controls, take the train - a train ticket is far more of a Veblen good, ideal for a flash git.

Our Fiat 500e comes pretty close to this. One attractive LCD for the dash and besides that no fuss. No nav (up to 2016), etc. Very raw driving experience. Paid 8k for mine.

ID.1 probably going to be like that. The market for this is small and most people love smart features.

It's just too bad the current assumption is that the ID.1 will never be marketed in the US. VW is currently given the impression that nothing smaller than the ID.4 will likely ship to US dealers, which is a huge shame. I'd be somewhat tempted by an ID.3 right now. I'm extremely envious right now of all the small, basic European and Asian EVs that currently have no chance of being purchasable in the US.

The Nissan Leaf is exactly this and has been available for 11 years.

And the battery packs degrade super fast. That car has a ton of issues.

It does have the worst battery degradation of all the EVs. Even with that, I’m very happy with mine (bought new in Dec 2014), but we have an ICE CR-V that we can use for any longer drives, making the LEAF excellent and our preference for around town driving.

That sounds like a great endorsement. The leaf EV, so good you'll need a second car.

We have two adult drivers and two cars. That’s fairly typical, I think.

For long drives of course you'll need an ICE car or be prepared to wait for charging. Come on. That's the norm for any EV right now.

Long drives can be completed with electric cars now that they can charge much more quickly, something the Leaf cannot do.

It’s true: a short range electric is the wrong tool for the job of taking a long drive.

Define "long".

In my experience, every ~2 hours of driving at 75 mph requires ~15 minutes of charging, so an 8 hour drive is 1 hour of charging, and if you plan your charging stop(s) around meal time(s), then it adds almost no time at all.

I drive from Portland, OR to Eugene, OR (About 110 miles) on a regular basis. I can make the round-trip without charging (barely), but I charge while I eat a quick dinner for the peace of mind.

I've driven to Seattle and back twice. I eat lunch while charging in Lacey, WA.

It's true that you'll want to plan your stops ahead of time during a road trip to minimize time spend only charging, whereas you can easily wing it in an ICE, but it's not too bad. You can use apps like A Better Route Planner to simplify it.

There is a switchover point in Leaf model years where they went to more active battery cooling and cars after that point are seeing a lot less degradation as we would all expect. It's relatively recent (like 2020 or 2021 model year) so it will take a while for the highly degraded Leafs to stop being a complaint of the used market. That said, even the most highly degraded Leafs have gone to the used market for resale as cars. They are still plenty useful even with degraded ranges. Nissan expected more of the batteries to need recycling and/or move to secondary uses by now and so far the majority of batteries are still in primary use and the cars are defying that expectation and remaining cars actively on the road.

I wish Nissan would step up their charging (and range) game. I get that it's not a long-range car, but being capped at 100kW fast charging means you'll never want to take the leaf further than a single charge can take it. Just improving that would make the Leaf a big winner.

> Just make a ducking dumb electric car already! We don’t need 4 screens in every car.

The drive/power train are incredibly expensive and manufacturers are looking for ways to cut costs. The incumbents might be able to do save money by reusing components out of other cars but the reality is that all the little switches, knobs, levers, and such cost money.

What Tesla did to reduce cost in the 3/Y was omit all the custom interfaces and inherit tooling costs, replacing it all with what's basically an Intel Atom based Tablet you can get from Best Buy for $100. This allowed them to use more premium materials to trim out the interior.

Until they can bring down battery costs, we're probably going to see more of this.

My Ford Focus 2017 EV is awesome - a snappy sleeper vehicle that looks normal. 110mi range is usable since it supports DC Fast. CarPlay works great.

Of course Ford cancelled the line in 2019.

Reminds me of https://arstechnica.com/cars/2022/05/want-a-small-affordable...

The electric Smarts fit this bill. Possibly related, they’re no longer for sale new in the US.

The Dacia Spring in Europe seems really interesting on this front: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3vZWMcINhlw

Unlikely to see a US relative anytime soon though.

This is the thing that puts me off Teslas (not that I'd waste 80 grand on a car anyway). How the hell are you meant to drive them at night with a massive floodlight shining in your face?

The interior screens dim. They are better than many ICE vehicles in this regard.

They are still insanely bright, and huge. It's impossible to see outside of the car with them.

I have an Air GT and received the notification already. I've driven my car >1600 miles in only a few weeks of ownership and can vouch for the quality. It is vastly better put together than you would expect for an EV startup and is an absolute joy to drive.

As for the news, car companies have recalls and Lucid is no exception. The wiring harness in the dash needs a few zip ties if the issue is present and takes 10-15min to check for. Service has been great and they're going to check it tomorrow - so far only a few cars have needed it.

What kind of range are you getting? I have a model S and I'm looking to change it out soon.

I’m charging to ~80% daily, a fairly spirited driver, and running on the 19” wheels. So far my typical usage gets 3.7mi/kWh and if I dial it back a ways I can get over 4.3 (that isn’t my common usage though). That translates to ~414mi per full charge in daily use and ~483 if I baby it.

I highly recommend the Lucid over the Model S if you value driving enjoyment, space, luxury and range over the supercharger convenience and tesla UX. The Lucid is a vastly superior platform over the Tesla, but has a lot of catching up to do from a software standpoint (though to be fair, they’re improving very fast).

As for the other options in the segment, the EQS is very plush but the brakes are atrocious and the ride is nowhere near what it should be. The Taycan is a hell of a sports car, but super small inside and has very short range.

Each has its advantages and drawbacks, but imho the Lucid strikes a very good balance of them all with very few shortcomings.

Thank you for the review. Priority number 1 for an EV for me is range which the Lucid seems to have in spades. Luxury is a close second which my Model S doesn't really have.

How's the fast charging speed? Do you get the top speeds when you're on low battery? (150-350Kw)

I will admit that I really like Tesla's software. I had to drive a Mercedes E(something) a while back and it's shitty software drove me bonkers. Slow and very unintuitive.

* The Lucid charges very fast for an EV. Tom over at State of Charge did a 0-100% test that goes into great detail.

* In my own experience I’ve found 150kw chargers routinely deliver 160-175 for a bit at low charge states before they begin ramping down at >50% SoC.

* The Lucid software has come a long way since launch but still has some work to be done. It’s vastly more responsive than before but the nav UX needs work among other things.

* Tesla is the clear leader on the software, but the sheer excellence of the Lucid’s performance and luxury overcomes a lot of of the drawbacks; with the Air just don’t want to stop driving.

For anyone who comes back to this thread: my Air GT was checked on Friday and didn’t have the issue. Took 15min and service was excellent as usual.

Slightly tangential to the recall itself, but why would someone build a car company from scratch? It sounds like quite an arduous thing due to how complex cars are, and how heavy regulations and testing is. I would think collaborating with existing companies may be much easier (asking partly as someone curious why Lucid went that way, but also as someone who wants to start their own auto co in the future.)

From what I understand, the very end goal is not to make money off of the hardware but the services that the hardware will provide. Existing OEMs are not easy to work with, especially if you're trying to get them to install your app in their car. I like to think of it like the smart phone hardware/software revolution that happened after the first iPhone came out. Tesla is like Apple and I hope Lucid will become like Android. The pre-EV era OEMs are like Nokia, Blackberry, etc...

Thanks for your answer

This actually gives me a lot of confidence in Lucid!

They estimate that only 1% of vehicles are affected and they initiated the recall before anyone got hurt. Other Auto OEMs would have likely ignored the issue and moved on.

"No one gets it on the first try" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WW5cB2UWTX0

For those who haven't heard of the Lucid AIR EV

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JxuB4H6uCq8

Hard to tell if this is a more significant recall than other cars. How comparable is it to normal ICE recalls?

Not surprising, wiring harnesses are incredibly difficult. The big OEM's still have issues with them.

Also title is wrong, there is an update at the bottom of the article : > The recall applies to 1,117 vehicles that have been delivered to customers, and it is estimated that the defect is present on 1% of cars

The title is accurate: they’re all being recalled, but they estimate only 1% have the defect.

Oh whoops, should have realized that they have only shipped ~1k cars

The fact they don't know which ones have the defect suggests their configuration management isn't great yet. If it was they should be able to recall just the affected cars. That will help not pay the cost of recalling 100000s of cars when they get to mass production.

I wonder why the statement from Lucid conflicts with the math in the third paragraph.

Move fast and break things?

I don't think it's feasible to build something as large as a new car manufacturer and not have issues. They're too huge. It's like trying to recreate a search engine from scratch and not have bugs while also having a limited runway to hit critical mass and not go bankrupt.

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