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Comment by gernb | Hacker News Reader

I''m not defending Pedal Me but you could try to design the city so biking is safer

https://www.treehugger.com/why-dutch-dont-wear-helmets-48581...

Sure you can still get in an accident. That's true of everything though. I don't go for a walk in a plastic bubble just in case a car hits me

https://www.google.com/search?q=cars+hitting+pedestrians&tbm...

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You could have the best designed city in the world and you will still be at a high risk of your fragile brain case impacting the ground or something worse at speed. Whether you're pedaling down a country road or the busiest NYC intersection not wearing a helmet on a bike is stupid, full stop.

In the Netherlands we're doing fine without them though. Nobody wears one on a regular bike.

I've had a few times where I slipped so fast I didn't even remember what happened but every time my arm was there protecting my head. Reflexes are awesome.

Accidents can happen sure but the added hassle doesn't seem worth it. Of course things are different when you do high speed cycling or mountain biking.

"In absolute terms, more people were killed in a car accident (237) than in a bicycle accident (203) last year, but this is different per kilometre travelled. Traffic mortality per billion vehicle-km was much higher among cyclists than among passenger car occupants (11 versus 1.6 deaths)." (https://www.cbs.nl/en-gb/news/2020/31/decline-in-road-fatali...)

Is it as much about vehicle-km or per vehicle-km? At the end of the day people generally will avoid super long trips on a bicycle because it’s slow and strenuous.

There are a lot of ways to slice those numbers; I like deaths / km as it describes the risks of traveling from point A to point B by various methods. On the other hand, it's likely skewed somehow by the fact that you rarely have more than one fatal accident per trip.

Another way of looking at it is deaths / trip; a quick search shows 4,800,000,000 bicycle trips in 2019 for a rate of 48 deaths / billion trips and 229 deaths versus 3,600,000,000 car trips and 610 deaths or 169 deaths per billion trips.

The average trip length in the US is apparently something like 10-15m which might make the number of automotive deaths per billion trips something like 130-200. Maybe. (I can't find an actual estimate of the number of trips.)

Another way is deaths per population, see one of my other comments.

Thing is, cyclists don't need to rack up as many kilometers as drivists. If you're riding a bike, you probably live in an urban place and you need only bike short distances.

Well, obviously cyclists are more vulnerable. Considering that the numbers are pretty low IMO. The Netherlands have 16 million people, most of which use bicycles for daily travel. 200 died in a year, especially elderly who are exceptionally vulnerable. It's not something that warrants extreme worry. There's always risk in a life.

Also, it's something that is only a risk to the rider themselves so leaving it to their discretion is warranted IMO.

Dividing fatalities by population might be reasonable to look at acceptable death levels; in NL in 2020, that's 229 / 17,440,000 or 1.3 per 100,000. Automotive numbers would be pretty similar.

(Correction: They would not. There were ~610 auto deaths in NL in 2020. That gives 3.5 per 100,000.)

In the US, 2020 had 11.7 automotive deaths per 100,000 people and 0.38 bicycle deaths per 100,000.

In the Netherlands normal cycle commuters almost never exceed 15 km/h. But I keep watching some Dutch road cycling youtube channel and they all wear helmets.

Do you mean to write "they all do not wear helmets"? or does "road cycling" mean something other than just using a bicycle on the road?

I see few if any helmets

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HbsMKxNORgQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZfDVmUD_2eI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJypp7igJho

No, I mean they all wear helmets. Cycling as in road cycling, group rides, as a sport, not for transportation. They're not professional cyclists, they all have other jobs.

https://youtu.be/_QUPWs07mKU

I think they use those for aerodynamics also. But yeah they turn up in spring and summer. Not much outside those seasons.

I find them very annoying, they tend to be very inconsiderate. Cycling on the road where bike lanes are available, and when they are on the bike lane they tend to be agressive to normal cyclists if they don't move along as fast as they want.

They're not all like that but many of them are, which leaves a bad taste as soon as you spot these groups of wannabe lance armstrongs :P

I don't think helmets are worn for aerodynamics. IIRC professional race cyclists only started wearing helmets after in 2003 when they became mandatory. If there had been any advantage in aerodynamics the athletes would have voluntarily picked up helmets before.

Also, anecdotally, I am occasionally road cycling for sports and do wear a helmet at all times. However, I am certainly not doing that because of aerodynamics.

Edit for clarity.

And cycle commuting is part of the culture which probably makes it safer as well. Would wearing helmets make it even safer? Possibly. But one can always argue for incremental safety gear and processes.

Making helmets mandatory would probably discourage cycling. That happened in Australia at some point, and nobody wants that to happen here.

That said, some cyclists here seem to be downright suicidal. Helmet or not, if you run a red light against traffic while watching your phone, you don't seem to be very attached to living. I've even seen parents direct their kids into ridiculously dangerous situations. Fortunately car drivers pay attention even to stupid cyclists here.

Isn’t the Netherlands very flat? I would probably feel safe without a helmet if it weren’t for the hills. My usual ten minute ride has an elevation difference of 35 m.

That's kinda the point. People can bike under very different circumstances. If you're going at breakneck speed down a mountain trail, you definitely should wear a helmet. But if you're going at a leisurely pace through well-designed traffic, it's not nearly as vital.

And it sounds to me like Pedal Me wants its riders to ride at a leisurely pace, rather than breakneck speeds.

Yes very flat.

35m isn't an awful lot though. You can pick up a lot of speed from a bridge in the Netherlands too.

>I've had a few times where I slipped so fast I didn't even remember what happened but every time my arm was there protecting my head. Reflexes are awesome.

isn't this a good example of confirmation bias? it worked for you, so it must work for everyone the same as it did for you each time they require it.

its your brain, I guess. and you do have that social health network to cover you when medical issues arise. guess it doesn't matter your quality of life post-brain injury :-)

It clearly works for millions of Dutch cyclists.

You can also trip on the stairs or a curb and smash your brain yet we don't wear helmets and armor to take a walk or climb some stairs. Apparently 30k-40k people a year die from stuff like that. (based on a quick google search so no idea if it's low or high)

https://www.lawfirms.com/resources/personal-injury/slip-and-...

What body/head armor are you wearing when you take a shower?

> A study conducted by the Consumer Affairs Agency based in part on these statistics estimates that around 19,000 people lose their lives every year in accidents while bathing

Your odds of dying as a pedestrian appear to be 7x more than cycling. Why are you not wearing armor while walking? Clearly it's irresponsible not to.

https://danger.mongabay.com/injury_death.htm

Are you ready to live in a society where it's expected you'll wear a helmet except when sleeping? You certainly don't want to be one of those people that slipped in your house and died. I don't. But, I'm also not willing to wear a helmet just to exist.

Am I stupid? In 2050 will everyone be wearing helmets for walking and people like me will be considered needlessly risking death for not wearing one?

Even well-maintained streets can get potholes, especially after huge weather swings. I once hit a pothole while biking and somersaulted over the handlebars. I landed on my back, but a slightly smaller rotation would have me in the hospital, or worse.

Design won't do anything for the millions of ignorati that are handed drivers licenses without demonstrating driving competence.

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