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Comment by gtsop | Hacker News Reader

Only pattern #5 had some merrit. There is no excuse for invading anywhere, period. Other than that, this article is an elegant, technically more detailed version of the US based propaganda around the war.

US/NATO/EU and Russia are just doing business uppon the deaths of ukrainians. Russia is clearly the most responsible for this, however, please, don't insult our intelligence by speaking of "democartic values" of the "free west". The west camp is equally rotten, it just has some nice make up on it's face and the only reason they are supporting ukraine is to make money, pretending they care for the devastated ukrainian people. They did not start the fire, but they are dumping tons of gas on it, because they benefit.

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"The west camp is equally rotten"

I don't think you realize the depth of the cleptocracy that is Russia. There is a reason why all the nations from behind the former Iron Curtain would rather fight to the death than end up under their control again.

Of all the bloody, miserable empires of the world, the Russian one is the most dysfunctional and has been so for centuries. It is a historical outlier, a poor and underdeveloped nation conquering its richer and more developed neighbors to the west by sheer brute force. Hopefully it seems that the recipe no longer works.

Let's agree your description of Russia is right. Does that mean we have to lower the barrier of what "rotten" means to us?

Is Russia more rotten than the major western players? Ok let's agree on that too. So i should change the wording "equally rotten" to "also rotten". Still rotten as to my standards and still hypocrites.

Ridiculously schematic thinking. Have you considered that "the west" might be composed of more than one train of thought and motive? Who is this "they" doing the pretending here?

Very black & white, binary thinking.

How does the West make money? We’re giving away billions worth of military equipment and ammunition. While also implementing oil and gas bans that will hurt Western (the EU mostly) economies really bad.

Good question:

1. Many countries are dumping old military equipment on ukraine and re-stocking with new. (Profit for the military equipment providers)

2. The gas bans mean US based LNG is going to be transported to Europe as alternate gas source (profits for providers and transporters)

The exonomy will be hurt in some ways (mostly impacting regular people) but it will benefit quite a few buisness sectora (on the expense of others)

True, some sectors are profiting but overal the economy will suffer greatly. Electricity prices are already insane in Europe (the bill this month was higher than my parent’s pension) and it will only get worse by winter. Factories will have to shut down and people won’t be able to heat their homes. Already happened last winter but this year it will be on a much larger scale. And let’s not forget about the skyrocketing food prices. This war is pushing millions of middle class Europeans into poverty. The best thing for the economy would be to just give Russia what they want.

So I don’t think the West is in it to make money. Not at all. If it was up to the Eastern EU countries they would send their armies to fight in Ukraine. They are scared of Russia. That’s their primary motivation, not profit. Other EU countries are alarmed but they lack the traumatic experience of Soviet occupation so they are less eager to fight. Still they are smart enough to realize if Russia succeeds the Baltics or Poland could be next. So the EU helps out of self preservation.

The US just sees this as an opportunity to damage Russia, they prefer to stretch this war out. The EU wants it to end as fast as possible.

I don’t see a profit motive.

I don't agree with the parent poster at all (see other comments) but it's fair to point out that certain sectors of the "western" economies are doing quite well out of this. In particular petrochemical companies and arms manufacturers.

A Marxist analysis would see the whole thing as a conflict between competing spheres and sectors of the international capitalist class that has broken out into open violent conflict. Contradictions in interests that were not resolvable by statecraft or other means are now being "resolved" through wholesale destruction.

Which is disturbingly similar to WWI.

I'm curious as to how you dismiss the first pattern, specifically, Russia's treatment of indigenous Crimean Tatars as well as the laughable 2014 "referendum"

I don't dismiss it by saying chomsky is right, i dismiss it by saying both sides are wrong. It is a very well known fact up to this point on history that all these referendums are processes to put legitimate stamps on big decisions the actuall people in power want to take.

The formula is simple, you make a narrative that devides to right and wrong. Then you spam people of the hell that will break loose if they do not vote for what you want. People vote it and then you say "hey! The people wanted it, not me!" If they don't vote it you just hold a second referendum.

I am not saying this is what happened there exactly, but referendums have become a joke in the 21st century.

Okay, and the Tatars?

There is some discussion that you might find interesting, concerning the Tatars, in the thread for this article in the Chomsky subreddit.

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