Abletone Learning Synth | Hacker News Reader

Abletone Learning Synth

learningsynths.ableton.com

241 pointsevo_963 comments

Pretty cool demo, if you want to make your own electronic music you should check out LMMS, it's free & fairly easy to learn the basics: https://lmms.io

I've been messing with LMMS for the past couple of years, zero musical training, following YouTube tutorials at first and came up with a bunch of stuff that sounds half decent in my opinion: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tsjzt5QLGOg&list=PL54E2psbCL...

Wow - that's really good stuff. I feel like it would be really good background music for coding / grading / etc.

It's really cool that you did that on your own! Being able to do stuff like that is a pipe dream of mine and I'm super impressed :)

Two thumbs and would highly recommend!

Thanks, just try it out it's surprisingly easy I'm using default sounds 90% of the time. Just putting stuff on the piano roll and clicking some buttons for the drums.

Should be "Ableton" in the title

Abletone is kind of cool though

I agree. Sounds like a 1960s surf rock band to me, who would have had one hit that everyone knew, but no one knew who the band were.

Seeing it I was like “wait is it actually called that”? And couldn’t tell on mobile but if they’re not using that branding they absolutely should look into it.

If they end up doing a drum machine, they can just call it "AbleTakt".

And then have Elektron knocking on their door.

KickAble

Somehow I interpreted the combination of a new name ("Abletone") along with the phrase "Learning Synth" to mean they'd developed an AI-driven synth engine that used neural nets and genetic algorithms to explore new timbres. Ah well. Still a cool project, I think learning and experimenting with synthesis is a lot of fun.

Yeah, my first thought was they have a new ML-based product from seeing that name.

Equally excellent is their "Learning Music" series along the same lines as this one: https://learningmusic.ableton.com/

This is truly a wonderful project. I am expecting more and more apps like this using web audio.

It's also great to see a lot of interest on music making!

BTW, here is a collaborative live coding language/environment I am developing:

https://glicol.org

You can learn synth and sequencer with examples, similar to this project, yet in a code-based/non-GUI manner.

Been wanting to do live coding for ages now, but the problem I always run into is that the languages/environments are either really verbose (you know the one I mean), or don't offer much in the way of sound design (they often sound great, but they're not my sounds), and I'd rather avoid samples. Glicol though looks like it could be really interesting, maybe even "the one"!

Currently I use Renoise, but mostly just use single cycle waveforms to try to force some synthesis capabilities into the sampler (I'm alright with "generic" samples for percussion providing theres a decent variety). Its really nice, but it often feels like I'm using the wrong tool for what I want, so Im hoping live coding could be the answer.

Wondering whether you have tried TidalCycles? I am also experimenting with the concept to use `pattern' as audio signal: https://glicol-tidal.netlify.app

In this process, I do feel a difference between using samples and pure synthesis. I think one reason that samples are widely used in live coding is because we need to balance between the prototyping time and the music complexity. But I do agree with you that live coding should think more for the audio synthesis part rather than simply mapping a language to an existing audio engine.

I think your interest on wavetable synthesis is really interesting to me. That's somewhere I should explore more in developing Glicol.

I have looked into Tidal a few times, but each time something has put me off. I can't remember what it was exactly (probably a good reason to try again). Maybe its because it uses Supercollider as a backend. Nothing wrong with supercollider, but its the verbose one I was referring to, but also because if I'm having to use something external with supercollider anyway I'd probably go with Foxdot instead.

I can totally understand the practicalities of samples, afterall a sample can reproduce any sound of any synthesizer ever, but for me it just makes things less fun and more of a chore (eg file management). Add to that the comparitive lack of modulation capabilities and the difficulties you can have with long sustain notes, I'd just have something more limited but "all in one" if you know what I mean.

Wavetable synthesis is really interesting, but I think you're overestimating my abilities lol. I don't actually do wavetable synthesis (to my knowledge its not possible to in renoise, or at least its not a native function). Its more like building a fake subtractive synth using a single cycle waveform as the oscillator. It works alright for what I need to do with it, but it does mean Im somewhat lacking on modulation.

Yes, you can try Tidal in browsers as TidalStrudel now:

https://strudel.tidalcycles.org

What hardware synth should I buy as a newbie to the hobby?

Budget: $100 used

The Korg Volcas are all great fun. I'd probably go for a Volca Modular. Keys is fun, but can get boring pretty quick.

https://www.korg-volca.com

Yeah, Volcas are how I got started with music hardware, and they are a great introduction. I still use my Volca Bass from time to time, even though I have hardware that costs 10x as much now. Most of them sound really good, especially considering the price.

$100 isn't going to get you much, unfortunately. Someone else has already suggested volcas, and they're probably your best bet for that price point - the only other things you might check out are the Teenage Engineering Pocket Operators, or one of the cheaper behringer things like Crave. That said, another direction you could head is to pick up a midi keyboard, and start playing with soft-synths to get a feel for the kinds of things you want to do. If you make sure to get one with midi output (not just USB midi) it'll stay useful when you eventually buy other gear.

I know you said hardware, but you also said $100. Some soft synths are worth the money, like the Korg DS-10 which can run on Nintendo DS or iOS. Check out what Anthony Seeha does with them. EG: https://youtu.be/TXTyMxM5vuY

If you want a keyboard, you can pick up an old 90s rompler for around that price. Love the keybed and build quality on my alesis qs6, but I just use it as a midi controller.

If you just want knobs and sliders, look at something like a used notation launch control xl.

If you want a full midi controller with keys, knobs, sliders, pads, maybe mpk mini? Nothing modern will have nice keys in that price range, though.

Plug in to your phone/iPad/laptop, download synth one or surge xl, spend some time mapping and away you go.

$100 is not a reasonable price point for good hardware that actually makes its own sounds, but who needs it when you have a super computer in your pocket.

I second everything parent said ^

You'll get a lot more utility and value out of software these days, but if you really want a hardware synth, the non-trendy 90s romplers can carry you far.

If you want something with knobs and analogue circuitry look out for some of Behringer's recent offerings on the used market. TD-3 is a reliable clone of the absolutely classic TB-303 and can be scored for under $100.

I asked HN a related question.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27822489

I started with SynthOne on my iPhone.

Recently bought an Arturia MiniLab Mk II and am running Ableton live-lite it was bundled with on my laptops. <$100.

More recently I bought a used Mbox II audio interface. An eBay bargain.

Still more recently a Moog Werkstatt, Adorama had/has them for $149 because they’re closeout. And because it is a fn Moog.

And of course more cables came in today’s mail because…well because it is probably a hobby…if it isn’t a hobby it will do until a hobby shows up.

You probably won't get something worthwhile for that money, alas. If you can get a secondhand behringer recreation of a classic synth at the right money, you might be close.

I've taught music technology for over 20 years, and getting a simple subtractive synth and playing with it is the best way to learn this kind of thing. The temptation is always to get something vast and massively complex (as the presets will sound amazing), but in terms of learning how to actually program a synth, a basic one is way better. Something like the Roland SH-101 (which behringer have made a copy of) will let you understand all the elements of it that you can then translate to the complex structures of larger synths.

I find cherry audio's voltage modular a great learning tool, if you take the right (basics first) approach - as it can get very complex very quickly otherwise!

If you're going with software eurorack emulations as a didactic tool, VCV rack should be pointed out, too. The standalone version is open source: https://vcvrack.com

The basic modules that are included let you form the core of subtractive synthesis. Having them available as isolated, wired up building blocks is a very visual help in understanding how they relate.

Korg nts-1. Same audio processing of a minilogue in a raw pcb factor. you might need an external midi controller to fully unleash it's power but those are cheap, used.

Related question: Any synths/MIDI controllers that show musical scales? Maybe with LEDs or something?

I was dabbling in LMMS some time ago and it has an option to show scales but it's slow to enter and experiment with notes with the mouse.

No, I can't be bothered to learn piano scales. I expended my mental capacity for it on guitar already.

> No, I can't be bothered to learn piano scales. I expended my mental capacity for it on guitar already.

It’s a lot easier on the piano. The keys are laid out as sheet music, very convenient if you know a bit of music theory.

I have a couple of groovebox-style machines (Korg Electrobe 2, Novation circuit) and they will let you select a scale and then the pads are locked to that scale. And then the internal synth and the MIDI out will just be in that scale/key.

I don't find it super useful-- I'm not bad at pianos/keys, but it does simplify note input quite a bit if that's what you're looking for.

Well if you just keep to the key of C you can just play white keys. Some controllers have transposition settings on them! If not you can use a midi effect in your daw to transpose to another key, too. But really if you can already do things on guitar then piano will beat lot easier and probably even help your guitar technique as well.

Try a Launchpad X. It lights up all the pads that are part of a scale.

The Korg Minilogue is a really good beginner synth. It has a what you see is what you get interface, and even has an an oscilliscope which relly helps starting out. Here's a video plugging this as a great beginner's synth: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EE7EvKYTs4I

if you look at the recently sold on reverb, you see you can get one for ~$300 or ~$350. https://reverb.com/marketplace?query=Korg%20Minilogue&show_o...

What do you use the oscilloscope for? I saw a video yesterday from the 60s where someone was using one and it occurred me that in 20 years of music production I've never used one myself. What am I missing?

Visual validation that your filters/effects are having the intended effect?

When you’re not used to processing sound and figuring out what is happening, translating that into the more familiar visual domain can be useful. You see the sharp points on a sawtooth wave, and realize that’s why it’s buzzy. Then you close the filter and watch the sharp points get rounded out and hear the buzzyness fade. In my experience, after I got better at mentally processing sound I started to want spectrum analysis more than a scope, because my brain was able to do a lot of what the scope was doing for me earlier - but I was still missing the birds-eye view of a spectrum analyzer.

PO-28 would be my go to. Its pretty limited in what it can do (though for the money that makes sense), but what it does it does fantastically, better than a lot of hard or soft synths I've seen for 10x that (imo, the pocket operator keypad is much more intuative than a standard keyboard).

Soft synths will of course be more affordable, you can get renoise for less than your budget which is a whole DAW. But I do recognise the appeal of hardware, no matter how many soft synths I buy it can't fill that hole for me either lol

Behringer typically has good value for the money. They have a couple of mini synths (e.g. behringer model D soul) which is exactly $100. The behringer neutron is around $300, so you may find it around $150 used, and it's incredible value for that money.

The soul line isn’t shipping yet, supposedly due to chip availability - but I suspect actually because they announce things before they’re done and ship based on enthusiasm/reaction.

I'd suggest to get a really great hardware synth to learn on - if you don't like it, the secondary market is usually active enough to sell it at minimal loss, and if you do like it, you immediately have a really nice instrument.

If you just want to learn monophonic synthesis with an amazing sounding synth, geta Moog Grandmother for around 1k. You can buy used and sell used, too.

Honestly on a budget your best bet is to get a midi controller and hook it up to your computer as a soft synth. You'll be able to do a lot more even though it might take a bit of setup. It's hard to get a good hardware synth at such a low price but you can get a relatively good controller -- some even come with Ableton Lite.

Yea a cheap controller like an Akai MPK Mini is a good place to start. There are great free DAWs like Studio One or GarageBand that you can use with soft synths. I highly recommend Serum as a soft synth to learn from because it’s extremely visual.

Don’t forget vital for a free and I think open source clone of serum

https://vital.audio/

check out the korg volca line. The volca fm 2 is about to be my first hardware synth. It’s $170 new, so you can probably find something close to your budget used.

Behringer TD-3-RD Analog Bass Line Synthesizer

Model 15 Modular Synthesizer App (not hardware but close to the experience and sounds great)

TD-3 is awesome but definitely a gateway drug purchase. I got one shortly after Roland's web-based synth recreations were posted on HN. Immediately wanted some sort of drum machine to go along with it. Now I also have an Elektron model:cycles, a mixer and an effects pedal, as well as a ton of cables slowly taking over my desk.

You could also look at the cheaper Arturia synth. I really like how they sound (though AFAIK a lot of people don't - maybe take a listen to some Demos on YouTube) and find them decently intuitive for a beginner. The microbrute for example comes with a small patchbay (be careful of the modular rabbit hole though). A cursory search suggests prices between 150 and 200€ (sorry, to lazy to do conversion since I'm on Mobile). I only played with the Behringer clones a little at a friend's place. They sound totally fine, I think Arturia's build quality is way better, though. They have the benefit of being clones of popular (some may say famous) synth like the Moog Model D or the Roland 303, so they have a familiar sound.

I love the LFO robot! https://learningsynths.ableton.com/en/lfos/modulating-pitch-...

This is fun to play with even for those familiar with synths! What a great page. I wish the source was open; I wonder what they are using to generate the sound. An existing library or their own?

I think the audio engine is here:

https://learningsynths.ableton.com/js/musiclab.js

AudioWorklet + WASM (compiled from C++ maybe)

FYI, I have an NPM open-source WIP audio lib here:

https://glicol.js.org/

AudioWorklet + WASM(compiled from Rust) + SharedArrayBuffer

Hey, I like what you're doing.

If you see this, send me an email (check profile).

Best!

Previous Thread:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20272346

Man, the way they choose the sounds for all the interactive parts is perfect, that was one of the most fun demos to use.

Awesome! Why does the box also move when you move the kaoss pad pointer thing around? It's a very small detail but makes 0 sense to me. It seems like they're potentially creating confusion by having the box which is your reference frame also move.

Maybe I'm old but the fact that this is running in the browser blows my mind. I'm really hoping effort keeps going towards the WebAudioApi!

The implementation is out of sight, just great.

I want to know more about the implementation.

Such a great site. I need to find out what they used to build it.

I know it uses React, the React Developer Tools icon lit up when I went to the site.

Not impressed. It doesn’t explain anything about how synths work. At least for quite a while so I closed it

Oh lol, the synth part started right after I quit

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