I wish more linux laptops had the build quality and support of macbooks. This isn't a rant from an Apple fan, this is a rant from a laptop fan. ThinkPad's aren't good laptops despite what the guy with the pocket protector says. They are flimsy and feel cheap. They still have 20th century tech (eraser mouse, c'mon!). They are my grandfather's laptop.
We don't think an aluminium bike is better than a carbon fibre bike, so why is an aluminium laptop better than a carbon fibre laptop? I mean aluminium has some nice advantages like heat dissipation but CFRP allows for much lighter laptops. If anything I prefer CRFP because of the weight advantages and because it's more of a "sleeper" material when laptops are VERY tempting for thieves.
I have only used them when clients specifically request it, but otherwise connect them to a workstation of my choice.
Feels like a static electrical layer. But after some time it’s gone
Unfortunately it seems to be quite difficult to buy grounded usb-c chargers. Most of them seem to come with C7 cables with no ground.
I get your point about "pass-through grounding" to the laptop, but then again, a lot of time the laptop is not connecting to a charging wire anyway.
Also, I'm in the UK with its crap ring circuits packed with 240v/13amps. I'd rather have a ground when I'm one fault away from 3000 watts momentarily being delivered to my lap. Especially with these exciting new GaN chargers and their open circuit failure modes..
It looks nice.
Which is completely subjective, of course, and purely about aesthetics. But for a personal item like a laptop, I think aesthetics are much more important than HN comments would let you believe.
Depends on how you define better. Carbon bikes are prone to catastrophic failure, and if you fall often are a bad idea. Of course, you might just say "just don't fall".
It is so much easier to wreck a carbon fiber frame than an alu frame. It just takes one pointy rock or one bad slide. Whereas an alu frame will only receive cosmetic damage
I can patch my fiber frame though, it's getting harder to "total" them nowadays imo. I've tried!
> Reed and other experts in carbon fiber agree that any material can fail. Wrecks happen from faulty aluminum, steel, and even rock-hard titanium. The difference with carbon fiber is that it can be difficult to detect signs of damage that might signal imminent failure. Cracks and dents in other materials are typically easy to see, but fissures in carbon fiber often hide beneath the paint. What’s worse is that when carbon fiber fails, it fails spectacularly. While other materials might simply buckle or bend, carbon fiber can shatter into pieces, sending riders flying into the road or trail. And this kind of catastrophic destruction can happen to any part of a bike made with the material.
> “It’s completely reasonable for someone who wants a lightweight bike to look at carbon fiber, but they need to understand the risks,” Elrath says. “Absolutely this is getting ignored.”
https://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor-gear/bikes-and-biking/...
There are plenty of videos from competitions where the carbon suddenly fails. I've never seen that with aluminum bikes. Last three accidents from 4:15:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kpeTiF_Tm04
But going back, if one is not racing, is it really worth the extra risk for minor performance improvements? Some say that after any serious fall/crash a carbon frame/component should be replaced because it's difficult to assess if it was damaged or not. How many can afford that?
As a counterpoint to the video you linked, I'm reminded of this video of Danny Macaskill having to work pretty hard to break a carbon rim: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VfjjiHGuHoc
> ... if one is not racing, is it really worth the extra risk for minor performance improvements?
It really depends on how much extra risk there is and how much the rider values the performance improvements. Without actual data about the (relative) risk of carbon fiber failure in bike components, we have to guess based on the information we have avaliable. Most of this seems to either be anecdotal, or coming from from interested parties, e.g. bike manufacturers, lawyers who make their living suing bike manufacturers, and journalists who are probably more interested in writing about something exciting happening than something exciting not happening. My impression is that the relative risk of of using carbon fiber in some (but perhaps not all) bike components is pretty small compared to the other risks involved in biking, and the performance improvements are big enough to be worth it for me, even though I don't race.
True of carbon as well, but they can be repaired in some cases; aluminum frames almost always need to be scrapped.
Regardless I find it very strange to compare a laptop with a bicycle. You would pick the materials when constructing either one for very different reasons.
It's the same reason why phones turned in to "premium" glass and metal sandwiches that people immediately slap in to a cheap plastic case because the "premium" design is simply too thin and slippery to use.
Samsung was rightly nailed in the 2010s for producing horrible plastic phones, but Nokia's use of quality polycarbonate in their Lumias were ignored.
People slap phones in to cheap plastic case to prevent scratches, or to make phones balanced in case of a camera sticking out of the back.
plastic can be (almost) infinitely recycled for industrial use, it's food use that has limited recyclability.
also: Macs are very hard to upgrade (sometimes it's impossible to) and become e-trash in a couple of years, while these "plastic" laptops can last a decade before being discarded as junk.
My experiences different, I'd still be rocking a 2014 MBP had it not suffered massive liquid damage. All Macs and MacBooks I or relatives have crossed or are going to cross the decade threshold with aplomb.
I too own a couple of 10+ years old Mac laptops.
They are perfect as doorstop.
Once the RAM is soldiered or one of the main components gets out of production it's all about luck
while it is simply a matter of repairing it or upgrading it in the case of an actually repairable "plastic" one.
8GB of RAM is plenty fine for me. I just don't have a thousand tabs opened (I never do anyway, whatever the RAM amount), which is mostly the usual problem but the state of the web platform and its runaway resource usage is another debate entirely.
> one of the main components gets out of production it's all about luck
You make it sound like it never happens with non-Apple hardware. With the flurry of devices that are put out every other month by a lot of hardware vendors, "out of production" often means a couple years, barely enough to cover warranty claims, and then they coast on stocked spare parts.
I am in the habit of trying to revive legacy hardware when people throw it away, and have a closet full of hardware barely older than 2-3 years that could not be repaired because of a broken part that should have been perfectly repairable were the part be available. Usually these get fixed by having two broken machines and doing a transplant, not by sourcing original parts from manufacturers. Batteries are loads of fun, even just one year after a product release it might be impossible to source an original one, either because they have additional import legislation so they're outright not distributed overseas, or because they're deemed consumables when they're field-swappable, and thus often not covered by warranties (and thus vendors don't make any effort stocking them), so you're left with buying third-party ones of obscure origins which can be either duds or fire hazards waiting to happen with a non-negligible probability. At least Apple puts forward some hard numbers so I know what I can rely on†.
Hell, just last year I restored a PoS system that had 1GB of RAM and a 8GB SSD, put some lightweight Linux on it, recovered a couple of ESC/POS thermal printers, hacked some bridge in Ruby between the PoS software and the printers, and the device chugged along for a solid year before finally giving up for good, which saved the store owner from shelling out stupid amounts of money and helped them bootstrap their business.
With hundreds of machines from various vendors that went through my hands I feel I have enough statistically significant data to extract trends and draw my own conclusions. These don't support that Apple devices become e-waste in short order, but I respect that your experience and opinion might be different, even though I don't adhere to it.
Great example. macOS Monterey minimum requirements: "MacBook Pro: Early 2015 and newer"
So Apple forces that device to be e-trash, regardless of your desires.
Uhh, nope. NVidia and Broadcom all over.
00:00.0 Host bridge: NVIDIA Corporation MCP79 Host Bridge (rev b1)
00:00.1 RAM memory: NVIDIA Corporation MCP79 Memory Controller (rev b1)
00:03.0 ISA bridge: NVIDIA Corporation MCP79 LPC Bridge (rev b3)
00:03.1 RAM memory: NVIDIA Corporation MCP79 Memory Controller (rev b1)
00:03.2 SMBus: NVIDIA Corporation MCP79 SMBus (rev b1)
00:03.3 RAM memory: NVIDIA Corporation MCP79 Memory Controller (rev b1)
00:03.4 RAM memory: NVIDIA Corporation MCP79 Memory Controller (rev b1)
00:03.5 Co-processor: NVIDIA Corporation MCP79 Co-processor (rev b1)
00:04.0 USB controller: NVIDIA Corporation MCP79 OHCI USB 1.1 Controller (rev b1)
00:04.1 USB controller: NVIDIA Corporation MCP79 EHCI USB 2.0 Controller (rev b1)
00:06.0 USB controller: NVIDIA Corporation MCP79 OHCI USB 1.1 Controller (rev b1)
00:06.1 USB controller: NVIDIA Corporation MCP79 EHCI USB 2.0 Controller (rev b1)
00:08.0 Audio device: NVIDIA Corporation MCP79 High Definition Audio (rev b1)
00:09.0 PCI bridge: NVIDIA Corporation MCP79 PCI Bridge (rev b1)
00:0a.0 Ethernet controller: NVIDIA Corporation MCP79 Ethernet (rev b1)
00:0b.0 SATA controller: NVIDIA Corporation MCP79 AHCI Controller (rev b1)
00:0c.0 PCI bridge: NVIDIA Corporation MCP79 PCI Express Bridge (rev b1)
00:15.0 PCI bridge: NVIDIA Corporation MCP79 PCI Express Bridge (rev b1)
00:16.0 PCI bridge: NVIDIA Corporation MCP79 PCI Express Bridge (rev b1)
02:00.0 VGA compatible controller: Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD/ATI] RV730/M96-XT [Mobility Radeon HD 4670]
02:00.1 Audio device: Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD/ATI] RV710/730 HDMI Audio [Radeon HD 4000 series]
03:00.0 Network controller: Qualcomm Atheros AR928X Wireless Network Adapter (PCI-Express) (rev 01)
04:00.0 PCI bridge: Texas Instruments XIO2213A/B/XIO2221 PCI Express to PCI Bridge [Cheetah Express] (rev 01)
05:00.0 FireWire (IEEE 1394): Texas Instruments XIO2213A/B/XIO2221 IEEE-1394b OHCI Controller [Cheetah Express] (rev 01)
This is a 'Late 2009 27" iMac', running the internal display as well as an external 1920*1200 24" monitor through a DP->HDMI cable. Everything works, including the silly IR remote control thingy (tested using the IR blaster on my phone).
When they go out of security support these machines work quite well under Linux (as I could test myself, I recycled a bunch already).
Plastic doesn't grow on trees either. Its production has huge impacts on the environment.
Aluminum is highly and easily recyclable. In fact Apple makes their MacBook enclosures from 100% recycled aluminum. No other computer manufacturer can make the same claim regarding the production of their plastic body notebooks.
The idea that plastic can be infinitely recycled is just that: an idea. The infrastructure for recycling plastic is far more complex than recycling aluminum, as well as essentially non-existent.
Apple computers have a history of having high resell values and long lifespans. You can see the evidence of that just by looking at eBay. And when they do eventually get tossed out that aluminum body can actually be recycled, where the same claim for plastic bodied notebooks cannot be factually made.
I seriously believe it's time we start considering Apple a religion.
Technology company HP Inc., Palo Alto, California, has a product and service portfolio that includes personal computer systems, printers and 3D printing solutions. Increasingly, the company’s products are manufactured using recycled-content plastics
All the ocean-bound plastic that HP incorporates into its products is PET. The company says its HP Elite c1030 Chromebook Enterprise laptop is the world’s first Chromebook made with ocean-bound plastic. The device also is made from 75 percent recycled aluminum and features a keyboard made from 50 percent recycled plastics
HP is using ocean-bound plastics in its products, with the Dragonfly is made of 80% recycled materials
HP has just launched new ENVY notebooks that offer creators the freedom. The ENVY laptops are also made from recycled aluminum
In 2018, we began implementing the use of an innovative bio-based packaging made from bamboo and sugar cane fiber. The material is not only 100 percent biodegradable, it is lighter than previous packaging and its strength characteristics enable design improvements that reduce overall package size.
This new packaging was used to to ship memory cards and one of our ThinkPad models. With lighter packaging materials and package weight, the result was 6.7 percent less transportation CO2 emissions. We are therefore looking to expand the use of this bamboo and sugar cane fiber packaging innovation.
Over a decade ago, Lenovo began using 100% recycled and recyclable packaging material. Instead of using polystyrene packaging, we now encourage the use of molded pulp, fiber and low-density polyethylene (LDPE).
Lenovo unveiled their latest range of gizmos at CES 2022 a short while back, including the new ThinkPad Z Series of laptops featuring eco-friendly designs. The ThinkPad series is made from 75% recycled materials, the Z13 and Z16 are made from 100% recycled aluminium
just to name a couple of them.
Every brand out there is greenwashing its name...
Anyway
Apple has committed to be 100% carbon neutral in terms of its supply chain and products *by 2030*
Apple's entire macbook line, both Air and Pro, have bodies made from 100% recycled aluminum.
The examples you provided, it's 50% recycled plastics or 75% recycled aluminum or 80% over-all or if 100% recycled aluminum is used it's only for some of their product lines.
Given all of that: I never said other companies aren't trying, and I'm not dismissing their efforts. I just said they can't make the same claim. Additionally, when it comes to recycling those plastic bodies the infrastructure just isn't there like it is for aluminum.
> Every brand out there is greenwashing its name...
I'm glad they're doing it, even if it's just to improve their brand image and not out of actual concern for the environment.
> I seriously believe it's time we start considering Apple a religion.
:roll_eyes:
Saying Macs become "e-trash in a couple years" is similarly way way off the mark. Expected life for many Macs is a decade or more. I have one that is from 1984 that still works perfectly. After that, much of the machine is fully recyclable, and the case is 100% recyclable.
I too own a Commodore 64 from 1983, an Atari ST, an Amiga 500 and a 286 Amstrad PC.
> Saying Macs become "e-trash in a couple years" is similarly way way off the mark
They are forced out of the market by the company upgrade policies.
What is the value of an Intel Mac now that Mx(s) are out?
And the animus against standard OS upgrades is not particularly convincing, to me at least.
The value of Intel Macs is holding up just fine. I can go sell my 2019 Intel MBP and still get a lot more out of it than a PC laptop of similar vintage. This has of course been historically true of Macs, as well, as even a cursory investigation will reveal.
The body is extremely sturdy along with the hinges.
It's not plastic - it's magnesium alloy. They are not flimsy or cheap.
Have you ever used a trackpoint? It's extremely ergonomic and much better than a trackpad. It requires a bit of time to get used to it - but it's totally worth the time investment.
And please don't make comments like 'Grandfather's laptop'. Just because something is old doesn't mean it's not good.
Look up Richard Sapper - the person who designed the IBM Thinkpad - a lot of brilliant design thinking went into this.
If something is highly functional, durable and can be easily repaired - that's beautiful. Aesthetically the Thinkpads are beautiful as well - an understated beauty vs the 'look at me, look at me - I'm shiny and thin'.
The casual dismissal of TrackPoints in the grandparent comment shows that the author has never tried one.
They're a great and innovative "backup" pointing device when one doesn't have access to a mouse or touchpad. They really don't compare to either of those more expressive and efficient options, though.
I've tried to use track points. A dozen or so times. Recently I got a new thinkpad from work and gave it another go, same result. I just don't like it.
Granted, the trackpad on my thinkpad is also garbage. I prefer my external trackball mouse.
Trackpoint fanatics don't seem to understand what works for them doesn't necessarily work for everyone. I find myself rolling my eyes a lot in threads like this.
I had the same experience initially - uh, this is awkward to use - but I stuck with it and now can't go back.
Why not use both?
For precision movements, I use the trackpoint with my index.
For large movements or scrolling, I use the touchpad with one or both or my thumbs.
Likewise with the physical mouse buttons on the trackpad. It’s 2022. We have touch screens with gestures and stuff. Why do I still have to use a physical button? Tap to click you say? Turning that on means being even in near-field proximity to the trackpad means it’s a click, whether you wanted it to or not.
Your fingers are not on the trackpoint when you type. The mouse pointer doesn't move when you use the keyboard.
Also, the three trackpoint buttons are right under your thumb - your hand literally doesn't have to move away from the keyboard. No touch screen necessary. That would be even worse having to move from keyboard to screen.
It really sounds like you've not used the trackpoint correctly.
But it's great that there are options and it seems you've found what works for you.
I recently bought my first thinkpad, a second hand Gen 5 X1 carbon, and I really like it.
I haven't yet invested the effort in learning to use the trackpoint.
I guess you use your index finger on the trackpoint, and thumb on the mouse buttons? For scrolling it seems you hold the middle button with the thumb and then scroll with the trackpoint?
Do you normally disable the trackpad?
- Use your index finger for the track point
- Thumb for the 3 buttons under the space bar
- Middle button is to enable scroll mode
You don't need to disable the track pad.
I did though and it can also help to force you to learn the track point.
------
The ThinkPad TrackPoint
I recently got an old refurbished Thinkpad T430 for casual use when I am not near my desktop and installed Debian + LXDE on it. T430s are models from 10 years ago and is more enjoyable to work on than the 2019 MacBook Pro provided by my employer that I have to use for work. The only way I can make the MacBook tolerable is by using it in clamshell mode connected to monitors + physical keyboard/mouse so I don't have to interact with the actual hardware. It takes off like a rocket engine and warms my side desk pretty well (not to mention physically hot to touch, can't even imagine using it on my "lap"), docker is crap on it, not to mention the cmd-ctrl nonsense in addition to the things mentioned earlier. I have already dropped my Thinkpad a couple of times in pretty bad falls as it has survived whereas I don't have the same level of confidence in the MacBook.
This is false.
This monstrosity first appeared on the X1 Carbon 2nd gen (along with the loss of our beloved dedicated trackpoint buttons), and the backlash was so big that they reinstated all the buttons for the next generation.
Also, outside of SDD or RAM, what else are you upgrading? Does it even need to have that capability considering how often you do? Would you rather have better parts that won’t fail so easily in a slimmer, sleeker, design than one that sacrifices weight and size to allow you to maybe have the choice?
I like right to repair. I like being able to upgrade something. The frequency of which I upgrade my ram and sdd is about as frequently as I’ll need a new motherboard anyway as my board is outdated 4x cycles.
I've used a plethora of modern latoptops, and to this day my favorite laptop is an ancient x200. It has not trackpad, only a track point. I upgraded it to heck, with a new ips screen, ram, new wireless card, storage, etc. The keyboard is wonderful, the screen looks great, The foot print of the laptop is quite small. I only wish I could have that laptop with a modern processor, as that's where it's fallen behind.
I've never enjoyed MacBook as much as that thing. I'm definitely not a granpa either.
https://liliputing.com/2018/03/x210-mod-turns-classic-lenovo...
(It was updated to use 10th gen Intel in 2019, I don't know if it runs the newest ones now though. Would really love if someone make a Ryzen part for it)
But it's, of course, a mod rather than a finished product, so...
I've owned alu-slab macbooks (personal) and company-owned thinkpads for a long time.
If you bump the macbook, you get a permanent ding. Nothing happens on the fiber for comparable force (unless you literally crack it).
If you flex the notebook, the alu can be permanently deformed. The "cheapo plastic" will easily take a ton of torsional deformation without complaining.
It's a very functional chassis in my eyes.
And I love the boring look honestly. I'm kind of disappointed that recent models switched to a more grey-bluish look.
Despide some Lenovo BS plays on firmware etc a thinkpad is still, in the age of making everything fancy looks over functionality, a thinkpad. A reliable product.
I've been trying to find a substitute for years. I can't find one. Macbooks are (generally) good products, but they don't have trackpoints, I don't like their keyboards, linux compatibility is not where I like it to be, and definitely not upgradeable.
You should try and compare a M1 Mac with your Carbon X1. Most likely yours runs much hotter.
Unless I'm mistaken, the material of the M1 Macs seems to be the same as before? If the machine runs at 100% resource usage, does the underside of the body no longer get so hot you can't have it in your lap?
Nope, never. That's not to say that if you run a Wii emulator for hours it doesn't get very warm, it's simply not intolerably hot. That's without fans. I'd expect a fan-equipped model to at most remain warm.
I've never run any emulators, I'm guessing they are about as resource-hungry as compiling things? Since laptops usually compile much slower than desktop computers, lots of time is spent compiling something when I use my laptops.
> it's simply not intolerably hot
I guess everyone's tolerance is different, but would you, while you run your Wii emulator, be able to have the laptop in your lap with just a thin garment between the laptop and your skin?
Pretty much, plus the GPU is in use.
> Would you be able to have the laptop in your lap with just a thin garment between the laptop and your skin?
Yes, that's what I originally meant as well. I'd prefer an actively cooled machine in such cases, obviously, but yes.
You had to be REALLY attached to MacOS or the Apple ecosystem to seriously consider a MBA. When Apple m1 was released, the battery life and performance situation VERY much changed making Apples product very very competitive as a standalone product. You absolutely made the right choice in 2018, but the game has changed and Apple is back.
Have you considered Dell's XPS line[0] (or their business equivalent, the Precision 55XX/57XX line)?
For a well-built notebook rivalling/exceeding the MacBook Pros, there's always the Precision 75XX/77XX line[1].
The new Precisions announced just a week ago with Intel Alder Lake CPUs[2] now have 16:10 displays, OLED, but still retain 'modern' features (some I consider regressions, like moving from dedicated trackpad buttons to a 'clickpad'). These are the notebooks with the new 'CAMM' memory modules.
Dell always has options for RHEL/Ubuntu from the factory, and these notebooks also run other distributions (I have a Precision 7560 running Windows 10/Arch) very well.
[0]: https://www.dell.com/en-us/work/shop/dell-laptops-and-notebo...
[1]: https://www.dell.com/en-us/work/shop/dell-laptops-and-notebo...
[2]: https://www.windowscentral.com/dell-precision-7770-7670-anno...
I'm glad my "Linux laptops" are very much not like those macbooks with their glue and solder and "no user-serviceable parts inside (and we really mean it)"
> This isn't a rant from an Apple fan, this is a rant from a laptop fan. ThinkPad's aren't good laptops despite what the guy with the pocket protector says. They are flimsy and feel cheap. They still have 20th century tech (eraser mouse, c'mon!). They are my grandfather's laptop.
The good thing with those machines is that you'll be able to keep on using your grandfather's laptop while those whose grandfathers opted for macbooks are left wanting. I'm using a T42p from 2005, apart from putting in an SSD I have not changed the thing. It was, and still is, a perfectly useable tool.
Support even better in a way, since they'll just ship you a replacement part rather than charge you through the nose for 'Framework Care' only to tell you it's old and needs replacing, can trade in if you want or send it off for weeks to have a 'refurbished' (not new) part fitted.
- cheap: plastic
- decent: aluminium
- better: magnesium, carbon,...
> they feel cheap
You mean they don't feel heavy. Some people confuse that for cheap. Similarly macs look like good engineering, but ...
No. The 2011 MacBook Air was light but rigid. It is still used by my parents 11 years later.
The hinge is still perfect.
Again feels rigid, but .... You can actually step on a thinkpad, but just google "macbook air bend". The MacBook Air is still a great laptop, but if you think it is more rigid than the competition, no it just might feel that way.
- It's light
- It's a bit more durable (or perhaps forgiving) when it comes to drops and dents
- It's less expensive
- If the laptop is built properly (not always a guarantee) it's just a sturdy
Forgiving for drops and dents? Yeah, I’ll give you that. Carbon fiber is durable, not scratch proof though.
Less expensive, yes, and you get those discounts bleeding into the components they use and the specs. Spec a high end Dev machine and compare with MacBook offering and it’s not even close. System76 is getting there, but they still use plastics too.
Build quality, I completely agree with this. The problem is production quality isn’t guaranteed and I had more issues with PC laptops (Dell, HP, Lenovo) than I have with my MacBooks (2008, 2012, 2014, 2020 M1).
No?
X1 Nano: 907g
Macbook Air 13: 1290g
So just 70% percent of the weight.
X1 Carbon: 1120g
Macbook Pro 14: 1600g
Again 70%.
So they are much lighter, not just a little.
I can't tell you how many times in my life I've seen a laptop come crashing to the ground. For somebody like me MagSafe is an actual competitive advantage because of the multiple laptop charging ports I've destroyed by tripping over the cord accidentally. I am not alone.
And I also like the right angle nature of the thing because of my my desk works.
Yes.
> Do you keep dropping your laptop?
Yes.
> My question is what is the use of such a build quality
Travel. As a former on-the-road consultant my laptops have taken all kinds of beatings - spills, inconsiderate recliners, drops etc. A (small) part of my preference for Apple machines is that they can be replaced with something basically identical almost anywhere in the world almost immediately by visiting either a first or third party store when something bad happens. Even commercial warranties with on-site support don’t get that good.
When I had to use a Macbook for work a few years back, I was unable to use the keyboard for more than 15-20 minutes without it flaring my RSI. That's compared to about an hour or so I can get on my Thinkpad.
im not sure i would like carrying all that extra weight around either. its not like i an going out on an expedition everyday where i need my laptop to hold up in all sorts of extreme situations. ive never even dropped or broken any of my "plastic" laptops and I've been using them for a few decades now
They are in no way flimsy, you will much easier damage internal components of nany Mac over Thinkpad T series.
but yes, they won't win any beauty contest - if you want reliable workhorse which is relatively ugly go for Thinkpad T series, if you want laptop for showing off go for Mac and other "brands"
I still love the old style keyboards - have they ever made a modern one with it? Last one (which I own and use still) that I know of is the T420
If you bought a T470 + T25 parts, you could FrankenPad it: https://www.xyte.ch/mods/t25-frankenpad/