Lenovo ThinkPad P1 Gen3 Review – with Linux
ernestas.me
ernestas.me
It's the most fun I have had using a laptop since my first MacBook. Moving from the MBP to the ThinkBook has made me realize how... boring MacBooks are - not saying that's a bad thing. MacBooks do 'just work'.
But the ThinkBook? The machine is fantastic. Sure, it has some soldered on RAM, but half of it is upgrade-able. The disk is a standard M.2 drive - easily replaced. It blows the M1 MacBook I use for work out of the water in almost every single number, except battery life. It was $100 more than a MacBook.
It's got double the RAM (16GB vs 8GB on the Mac), double the storage (1TB vs. 512GB), the NVidia 3060 seems to work a little better with OpenGL apps then the M1's GPU. More importantly, you can use two 4k monitors at the same time -which is impossible with the M1 MacBook Pro.
The Windows install was vanilla - not really anything additional installed. Maybe a Lenovo support app? Easy to remove from the control panel. Pretty much everything with the Lenovo machine was supported without too much fiddling around after installing Arch Linux.
Which kernel version are you running?
I don't usually push this machine too hard - maybe the most that I do is recompiling ffmpeg a few times a day, so it might just be a result of my usage patterns? I'll get back to you with more solid figures later tonight.
EDIT: Just had a play around with sysbench running a few prime number tests while compiling a kernel or two. The k10temp-pci-00c3 (CPU temperature under lm_sensors) seems to stick around at a crispy +64.1°C for a good few minutes, before rising to +65.6°C. It seems to drop back down to +64.2°C. The fan is pretty noisy. The CPU drops down to +50.0°C within 60 seconds of the sysbench benchmark stopping, and the fan noise is completely gone after 90 seconds. Temp is +36.9°C. Idle temp looks like it's around +34.4°C. Not sure how I can measure the db level of the fans? I do have a recorder, so I might be able to do it that way.
Not sure what a good way to actually benchmark the machine would be - it hasn't really come up as a necessity. Maybe I can use the Phoronix Test Suite?
EDIT 2: Doing some searching, maybe I got the machine just in time? 5.17 looks like it added some code specifically around P-states for Linux. https://kernelnewbies.org/Linux_5.17#New_P-State_driver_for_... ... Someone else with my exact same kernel version reports AMD issues being fixed in Arch that they previously had. https://www.reddit.com/r/archlinux/comments/u7kwza/recent_ar...
Tried Arch (with the 5.17 kernel, from Ubuntu LTS's 5.4 kernel) and the thermals were more or less identical to Windows, including the fan behavior.
It's a really nice little machine! :D
Maybe. If you compile in short bursts it's probably not going to affect you as much. With 4K screens and compiling a tiny bit of Rust, it starts being noticeable rather quick.
I did notice that newer kernel versions do behave a bit better, but still require a bit of help to keep consistent performance plugged in.
It was the smoothest Laptop I've ever used with Linux, which I've been doing since 2008. Everything worked out of the box, including external displays, wifi, printing. I'm sure that a major portion of that experience was using a Kubuntu LTS release.
Sounds like you had one of the cheaper T14's, it's likely you didn't run into any power limits due to that. 1080p screen as well, I presume?
Kubuntu 20.04 and its kernel version certainly throttle power on the higher-end T14's I've seen. If that's lifted then they throttle thermally, unless you manually force both cooling and power limits higher. Windows handles it all tad better, but the battery life is nothing to be amazed of.
I love the M1, it's a great work machine, I have very few complaints about it. I hardly ever hit 100% memory usage, and if I do - it's thanks to either Chrome/Spotify/Teams/Slack/Discord.
I think - and this might be a bit controversial - the ThinkBook is better... because it is. The M1 is a great chip, awesome thermals (no fan!), but the laptop booted into Windows is faster.
Hey, maybe it's the memory, who knows! It doesn't swap, so I don't think it is.
You can read my parent post for my reasons. You can't quite run Windows or a stable Linux on a MacBook now, can you? Can't quite remove a 4GB stick and replace it with a 32GB stick, right?
M1 MacBooks are legit, the Pro is the best machine I have ever owned by a long shot (several X1's, T Series etc) the screens are beautiful and I can get on and do whatever I need without worrying about glitches. I run commodity cloud linux VM's on things I need to deploy/monitor, its FAR easier (imo) to write the software on my Mac and then move it out.
The newer 14" and 16" models would drive them natively (or 2x 6K + 1x 4K with the higher end SoC) but then it's not much of a fair comparison by price. The single external display limit is only on the basic "M1" processor and not any of the Pro/Max/Ultra followups.
https://danielcompton.net/apple-m1-displaylink-multiple-disp...
I used one with a white plastic MacBook to get 2 displays. I have a new on for my Linux notebook. It works well, but there is a little latency. For writing code/ web browsing it’s fine for me.
I have two 4K monitors hooked up to a 14" macbook pro currently. I believe it's the air that only connects to one external display.
> If you're using a Mac with the M1 chip:
>
> On iMac, Mac mini, MacBook Air, and 13-inch MacBook Pro, you can connect one external display using either of the Thunderbolt / USB 4 ports.
Really strange limitation, as it never scaled with bandwidth - so 4k 90+Hz was doable, but 2x 1080p60hz wasn't.
Thing is, Display Port has much more different physical layer derived from PCIE, and so connecting two displays by DP and running internal screen with LVDS worked just fine.
With 1080p and Intel GPU it is a good, even great laptop with ok battery life (if you can look over the touchpad). Wonderful keyboard, good Linux support (even fingerprint reader works). But just as with the last Intel macbook, the GPU, 10th gen CPU on 14nm and thermally constrained chassis will make this a hot mess with 2 hours battery life , fans always spinning and poor framerates on desktop. That being said, Ubuntu has come a long way and in general. Not sure if I would go for a M1 mbp, or another Thinkpad today.
I am on a T490s with Fedora now (this machine). Any tips on how you got the fingerprint sensor to work?
$ cat /etc/os-release
NAME="Fedora Linux"
VERSION="35 (Workstation Edition)"
ID=fedora
VERSION_ID=35
VERSION_CODENAME=""
PLATFORM_ID="platform:f35"
PRETTY_NAME="Fedora Linux 35 (Workstation Edition)"
ANSI_COLOR="0;38;2;60;110;180"
LOGO=fedora-logo-icon
CPE_NAME="cpe:/o:fedoraproject:fedora:35"
HOME_URL="https://fedoraproject.org/"
DOCUMENTATION_URL="https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/fedora/f35/system-administrators-guide/"
SUPPORT_URL="https://ask.fedoraproject.org/"
BUG_REPORT_URL="https://bugzilla.redhat.com/"
REDHAT_BUGZILLA_PRODUCT="Fedora"
REDHAT_BUGZILLA_PRODUCT_VERSION=35
REDHAT_SUPPORT_PRODUCT="Fedora"
REDHAT_SUPPORT_PRODUCT_VERSION=35
PRIVACY_POLICY_URL="https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Legal:PrivacyPolicy"
VARIANT="Workstation Edition"
VARIANT_ID=workstationI'm using Pop_OS (Ubuntu-based), but they also have instructions for Fedora.
One thing I found on Pop_OS is that I didn't need to use `fprintd-enroll` because after installing the package I was able to use the GUI in my user account settings to enrol my fingerprints.
Hope that helps.
It seems the T490 can have different models of fingerprint reader and maybe not all are supported.
You should start by identifying your model with something like this
sudo lsusb or # lsusb
then look for the details of the line corresponding to the fingerprint reader model.
$ sudo lsusb -s 004 --verbose
Bus 001 Device 004: ID 06cb:00bd Synaptics, Inc. Prometheus MIS Touch Fingerprint Reader
Device Descriptor:
bLength 18
bDescriptorType 1
bcdUSB 2.00
bDeviceClass 255 Vendor Specific Class
bDeviceSubClass 16
bDeviceProtocol 255
bMaxPacketSize0 8
idVendor 0x06cb Synaptics, Inc.
idProduct 0x00bd Prometheus MIS Touch Fingerprint Reader
bcdDevice 0.00
iManufacturer 0
iProduct 0
iSerial 1 [redacted]
bNumConfigurations 1
Configuration Descriptor:
bLength 9
bDescriptorType 2
wTotalLength 0x0027
bNumInterfaces 1
bConfigurationValue 1
iConfiguration 0
bmAttributes 0xa0
(Bus Powered)
Remote Wakeup
MaxPower 100mA
Interface Descriptor:
bLength 9
bDescriptorType 4
bInterfaceNumber 0
bAlternateSetting 0
bNumEndpoints 3
bInterfaceClass 255 Vendor Specific Class
bInterfaceSubClass 0
bInterfaceProtocol 0
iInterface 0
Endpoint Descriptor:
bLength 7
bDescriptorType 5
bEndpointAddress 0x01 EP 1 OUT
bmAttributes 2
Transfer Type Bulk
Synch Type None
Usage Type Data
wMaxPacketSize 0x0040 1x 64 bytes
bInterval 0
Endpoint Descriptor:
bLength 7
bDescriptorType 5
bEndpointAddress 0x81 EP 1 IN
bmAttributes 2
Transfer Type Bulk
Synch Type None
Usage Type Data
wMaxPacketSize 0x0040 1x 64 bytes
bInterval 0
Endpoint Descriptor:
bLength 7
bDescriptorType 5
bEndpointAddress 0x83 EP 3 IN
bmAttributes 3
Transfer Type Interrupt
Synch Type None
Usage Type Data
wMaxPacketSize 0x0008 1x 8 bytes
bInterval 4
Device Status: 0x0000
(Bus Powered)Looking at your idVendor and idProduct it does look like it's supported: https://fprint.freedesktop.org/supported-devices.html
Also looking a little bit on what others tried.
First page: http://linux-hardware.org/?id=usb:06cb-00bd&page=1#status
Last page: http://linux-hardware.org/?id=usb:06cb-00bd&page=25#status
I see it working with T490 and Fedora 34: http://linux-hardware.org/?id=usb:06cb-00bd&hwid=b31796679ad...
I see it working with T490 and Ubuntu 20.04: http://linux-hardware.org/?id=usb:06cb-00bd&hwid=fdd063171e2...
For Fedora 35 but a X1: http://linux-hardware.org/?id=usb:06cb-00bd&hwid=c740d7ae4be...
So the recommendation here would be to make sure you have the drivers ( although this would not normally be required post install)
https://github.com/freedesktop/libfprint meaning https://fprint.freedesktop.org/ ( page I also linked above)
Also make sure you have all the latest bios updates for the Thinkpad.
If this would be a fresh install, even when wanting to use Fedora 35 :-) I normally try with previous versions of Fedora or another Linux, like Ubuntu just to confirm it's not a hardware issue before anything else. :-)
While still on Fedora 35 you should also check, and taking on the suggestion from @JustFinishedBSG
fwupdmgr refresh
followed by
fwupdmgr update
and check if succeeds.
Ubuntu is working right out of the box, I didn't try the finger print reader so. I prefer something I know to unlock over something I have.
Linux, well Ubuntu, is refreshing to use. First time I tried Linux, and it feels a lot more like an OS should feel. Not crap or bloat ware, no calling home, no cloud account.
The machine does get hot sometimes, getting some more air under it mitigates this all the time, the X1 doesn't have a lot of space under it.
Good advice for any laptop purchase. You will burn through battery driving that and the pixel density is much higher than necessary. Yes, 1920x1080/1200 is slightly too low when it comes to pixel density at 15", but it's still very reasonable and with decent eyesight you won't have to worry about any of the mess of DPI scaling.
> Good advice for any laptop purchase. You will burn through battery driving that and the pixel density is much higher than necessary.
Hard disagree. I use my thinkpads on AC most of the time, at home.
The crisp fonts in a terminal is a game changer. That has spoiled me: the bare minimum I can work with now is 2k.
Likewise for OLED: except the X1 nano which I use in the daytime, I can't see myself ever using a non OLED screen, so much that I would be ready to pay a huge premium for OLED in a Thinkpad with the X1 nano form factor.
I find the sweet spot minimum for my 27" desktop monitors to be 1440P. Anything that and above looks great.
Given you said you use 1440p monitors yourself, I think there is a misunderstanding somewhere here, because 2K is just a less commonly used term for 1440p. And 1440p is definitely a bit more than just "a few more pixels" compared to 1080p (iirc around 78% more).
No idea, since I haven't seen the term 2K being used much at all in the wild. So I simply googled that term, and it seems to be overwhelmingly used to refer to 2560x1440.
Even after using a 27 inch 4K display with an abhorrent 163 PPI , I can't imagine using a display with lesser PPI. No matter what tricks (anti aliasing) you use, the fonts will look like shit compared to fonts on a retina display.
Even at 1440p 240hz, pushing 2x more pixels than 4k60, I still get 5-6 hours of battery life.
Yes, it sucks that you have to go through the weeds to get it to work, but once it works it works.
Can you please tell us a bit more?
I have a NVidia + Intel GPU. I was thinking about using the NVidia for KVM (the NVidia would be powered down when not using KVM), and the Intel for native linux display with Pop or Ubuntu 22 LTS as another attempt to use Wayland (since I read NVidia GPUs can cause many issues)
That way, the Intel (or AMD in my case) integrated GPU will be used normally, with the Nvidia GPU fully powered down (you need a new enough card for this). Then, when you need it, you can use a command or environment variable or graphical launcher to signal to use the dGPU for offloading.
The GPU will then power on and render to a virtual display, and the framebuffer will be copied to the framebuffer of the relevant application on-the-fly.
Once no more applications are using the NVidia GPU, it will power down.
This way, there is no need to use a KVM, or do PCI passthrough, or anything of the sort, it mostly "just works".
If the (very small) overhead of passing through the iGPU is too much and your laptop supports it, you can also using MUX graphics and restart the DM with a config that will allow the laptop to rewire the screen into the dGPU, but I have never found this necessary or helpful.
> I had to choose the 15.6” FHD (1920x1080) Dolby Vision HDR screen, because 4K options are not supported on the integrated GPU. It’s a HDR400 WVA IPS display panel with 16:9 aspect ratio, 800:1 contrast ratio and 72% NTSC color gamut.
Sigh. There's no way I would want an NVidia card in any laptop, especially not a linux one. Why must companies do stupid configuration tie ins like this? At least there's a workaround.
Related: If you want a Dell laptop with Linux preinstalled, they probably won't let you max out the RAM and/or CPU.
See also https://www.notebookcheck.net/Lenovo-ThinkPad-P1-G4-laptop-r...
ThinkFan works well to control the fans too.
Lastly I found that the SD card reader prevented the CPU package from entering C10.
With all that I find that in idle mode my laptop (X1E Gen2, almost identical to P1 Gen2) consumes 3.9w, which is pretty good. The fan only turns on when I compile something large or do something with the NVidia card.
Documentation for the nvidia module claims [0] runtime pm is supported even when the module _is_ loaded for GPUs since Turing, but I haven't been able to test that (mine is older than that).
[0] https://download.nvidia.com/XFree86/Linux-x86_64/435.17/READ...
That said, if I want to start a process with using the NVidia driver and card I use this script.
#!/bin/bash
__NV_PRIME_RENDER_OFFLOAD=1 \
__GLX_VENDOR_LIBRARY_NAME=nvidia \
__VK_LAYER_NV_optimus=NVIDIA_only \
exec "$@"is this figure taken from software (powertop) or from a wall power-meter (i.e. including the psu)?
I like the laptop sometimes, but I've actually had plenty of times where it's more of a pain. For example, I run multiple 4k displays on my desktop, and using the Lenovo thunderbolt docking station with multiple 4k displays does not work. two 1440p displays are fine, but not two 4k UHD displays. Another issue Iv'e seen is the laptop simply reboots mysteriously, presumably due to thermal panics. I have to run chonky k8s cluster on my laptop requiring at minimum 20 giB memory, and like ~ most of the available CPU... and it gets hot, and reboots.
Fedora support is fabulous, and well you might expect that when you have the single largest open source corporation, not to mention Fedora's benefactor, using the laptop at scale.
I've personally switched to using an Intel NUC for the daily grind, but still use the laptop for travels and what not.
sudo sh -c 'printf 1 > /sys/devices/system/cpu/intel_pstate/no_turbo'
Writing 0 re-enables turbo. Note it is not the same as the power-saving mode in Gnome settings under the Power section. This is more similar to Low-power mode in MacOS which also prevents Turbo boost.
EDIT: I was wrong to call it power-saving mode in the grandparent comment. It should be called no-turbo mode there.
echo performance |tee /sys/devices/system/cpu/cpufreq/policy?/scaling_governor```
$ tuned-adm active ...
$ tuned-adm list ...
$ tuned-adm recommend ...
$ tuned-adm profile powersave
```
On the PC front, do you find that other workstations (Precision, Elitebooks) are better supported with regards to Linux and associated peripherals?
Seems unlikely as that'd imply running the OS they're making in a VM: the M1s only officially support macOS, and Asahi only just released their first alpha a pair of months back, with a lot of hardware not working yet. There's also a bunch of software which is not compatible with 16K pages, which asahi uses.
I used to want one so much, none of the laptops since have ever enticed me like that, the MacBooks I use since then are nothing compared to that. Computing was so much fun those days (rosy eyed fallacy likely).
Dell and HP also had great business machines. I'm particularly fond of the Elitebook 8530/8730 - built like tanks, easy to repair, good keyboards, and still so thin for the time (even today, they look and feel good).
Quality went downhill ever since - newer models are still pretty good, but not as good as older ones. More plastic, fewer screws, trash keyboards, just kind of average for the price.
This laptop trend could combine with phones starting to legitimize spare parts, DIY and iFixit style businesses, into something great.
> 3-4 hours of video/audio conferencing or other CPU intensive tasks.
This is one of the primary reasons I can't even consider moving away from an M1 Mac. I used to love ThinkPads but not being able to use the machine for 10+ hours without charger is a dealbreaker in 2022.
Aside from the screen, battery life and difficulties finding quality battery replacements are among the main reasons why switched to an M1 from an x220.
Likewise, with battery, you don't think it's an issue now because you know your laptop's limitations and therefore rarely unplug it. But when you get the ability to do so - you'll start to adapt to your new freedoms.
I have had one pair of these headphones for 16 years now. I wonder how airpods would compare in terms of pure surviveability.
This might also be the reason why they are quite popular with DJs
No I rarely unplug it because I need the screen real estate and the decent keyboard experience that I get at a workstation.
There is maybe 30% of my work where I can afford to work on a small screen and just work on it from the garden or a cafe.
Company issued laptops have become the norm but other than the occasional travelling scenarios most people still need workstations to get things done.
Funny, people accept limited (I don't use Bluetooth headsets, but I assume battery life isn't an issue in real life) battery life for fancy headsets but complain about it with laptops. I'm the opposite, I embrace the limited battery life of my laptop (running purely on the nVidia GPU and sporting a i9, on Linux, the most I get out of it are 6 hours, less when playing games), but use wired headphones. Not judging neither side, just a funny when you think about it.
My laptop lasts a good 6-7 hours doing normal tasks, but I hardly ever use more than an hour or two at most as that is as much time as I usually spend in meetings. Anything above that is wasted on me as I prefer my dual monitor and keyboard setup too much and subsequently can keep it connected pretty much 24/7.
It's much similar in the case of wired headphones. I bought a wireless headset many years ago. As the battery has deteriorated a bit since then I feel that I too often had to stop listening to music during work hours because they needed to charge. If I forgot to charge them when not at work, they would have to charge during work hours when I would much rather use them. I decided that this annoyance was greater than having a cable that I didn't notice was there. The sound is better too so yay
But like other commenter says I need nevertheless an space for a 27" monitor, keyboard/mouse and a comfortable office chair. I don't think I have a "mindset", I'm all about improving my day to day, I spend an insane amount of hours in front of my computer. I have been told that my next work computer is going to be a MacBook Pro so I will get a taste of the Apple experience.
I use laptop only when I don't have any other option (traveling, meetings) and there is no way in hell that I'm going to work on a unplugged laptop for more that few hours simply because I don't like the ergonomics, performance and lack of "monitor space". This means that "battery life" after certain treshold (few hours) is useless for me and not something I would consider while buying one.
I understand that different people have different workflows and battery life is crucial for some of them, but it's not something everybody needs.
What is abnormal is that in 2022 people think it is acceptable to be forced to use wireless headphones and have to constantly have to think and worry about keeping them charged, esp when they are used in a context where you quite possibly have them plugged in your ear all day.
Wireless headphones have their place (primarily in outdoor active settings in audio only contexts for small periods of time). But if you are sitting in front of your computer all day, there are these magical devices called wired headphones with infinite "battery life" and world class sound quality that you don't have to worry about being out of charge in the middle of an important meeting. Unlike wireless ones they also guarantee audio always being insync with video if you are watching a video regardless of the type of device/machine/operating system you are using them on, something I have never been able to get consistently working to my satisfaction with bluetooth headphones.
I really don't like having a wire constantly tethering me to my desk. With my wireless headset, i can get up, walk around my office, throw something away, or walk out to the other room and grab a coke from the refrigerator; all without pausing my music or taking my headset off.
I charge it at night and it is good all day. no worries here.
The battery lasts for a couple days of fairly heavy use, and they degrade to... wired headphones, essentially, since I can use them while they're charging. Also they have a 3.5mm jack if I want to use that. And they've got a microphone, so I can walk around while on calls.
Best of both worlds.
Then again the battery has just died in one of my wireless headphones (luckily not the primary) which means I can now only exercise with one side. Not a crappy brand either. I have wired headphones going on 10+ years that work flawlessly.
i switch between two computers, a phone and a tablet quite a bit during the day, so having to fiddle with bluetooth settings every time i switch is more of a deal-breaker for me than some microphonic noises from the cable
When I got laptops with more battery life, the charger is now used to charge the laptop overnight so I can use it throughout the next day.
If you never use your battery, why own a laptop at all? Why not buy a Mac mini or an iMac?
Sometimes I need to move, for example while travelling, otherwise I would use a desktop computer.
> Sometimes I need to move, for example while travelling, otherwise I would use a desktop computer.
People travels often. I do everyday.
I have one corp laptop and I don't have charger in my home. I don't want to have one more power brick for my 16 inch M1 macbook so I usually borrow a line from my wife's M1 Macbook Air but that rarely happens like only during weekend.
After switching to M1, I feel very safe to be unplugged. Even if I need to charge it, some 20W level of phone chargers can charge my mac while I'm using it. This guy only uses around 15~20W even with tons of chrome tabs + zoom meeting. It is using 9W ATM.
This is really a game changer for me.
About Macs, in my case I never liked their GUI since the very first Mac (the top bar, the menu, etc) and that's an instantaneous show stopper.
I'm a huge fan of the modern UI seen in Windows and Gnome where the "wasted" space of the title bar can show open tabs in Windows Terminal or Edge: with a minimized taskbar, the browser and the terminal can be used in fullscreen with 0 vertical space lost.
As an industrial controls engineer, I'm constantly bouncing from my desk to my rolling cart in the shop, to putting it in my toolbag and driving to a local customer's site, to putting it in my carryon and flying to a remote customer's site, to my home office. At each location, I have power available. At some locations, I have external monitors and a keyboard/mouse, so I could easily plug in a Mac Mini or luggable mATX desktop, at others the laptop is often perched on some convenient stack of pallets and peripherals like monitor stands would be highly inconvenient. A 10x15x1.5" slab with a power brick (and a spare power brick can be left at frequently used locations) is just a really nice form factor to carry around, it's superior to separate parts like even a small Mac Mini, SFF, or mATX desktop, an external monitor that probably needs a box of some sort to keep it from being damaged, and a keyboard and mouse.
I use too much Windows-only proprietary software to make the iMac sensible, but I like the idea of the power and legibility of a large display, desktop-grade CPUs, and the larger thermal envelope available by ditching the battery and requiring wall power. Does anyone make an all-in-one or a carrying case for all-in-ones (with probably a Bluetooth keyboard and mouse) that would make jumping between different work locations make sense?
I'm aware that's sort of what a gaming laptop is, and it's pretty similar to the Lenovo Thinkpad, Dell Precision, and HP Elitebooks that I've used in the past...Especially after a couple years of 24/7 charger connections while baking the battery with a Quadro GPU running Solidworks, you barely have enough battery capacity to carry the laptop from one desk to another. Unfortunately, all those workstation laptops make concessions to try to pretend they're a Macbook Air where you can do...something? apparently some people do some kind of work with the laptop running on a battery and balanced on their knees. It's just a foreign concept to me. I'd rather they were 2" thick with a 120V socket, no battery, and 400W of CPU+GPU.
... plus, crazy, excessive-seeming battery life at purchase means you still have "all-day" battery when the device is 5 years old and the battery has significantly degraded.
When the battery has significantly degraded, I usually buy a new one. Changing the battery in a Thinkpad is not very hard.
https://www.notebookcheck.net/Dell-XPS-13-Plus-with-i7-1280P...
Note that that is a 12th gen P. I suspect the U CPUs won't perform quite as well but will offer much better battery life than the MBP.
A newer AMD would be more comparable.
AMD are also doing a good job. The 7000s look very good. Crazy that this is still on a larger process node than Apple.
The Intel is fast only with a ridiculous power usage, thus low runtime. It comes nowhere close to the M1's runtime when forced to the same high load.
I think things will get a lot more interesting in 2024, when Intel and Apple are on similar nodes. Right now Apple is making chips with transistors that are 2-3 times as dense, but they're consistently losing the performance crown to x86 machines on dinosaur silicon. The performance-per-watt gap is bound to start closing, and when it does there won't be much of a benefit left to using ARM, especially if your casual users can get Macbook-beating battery life with it.
Plus, it's not like you need to use ARM to compete with that efficiency. Just 2 years ago AMD was shipping Ryzen laptop chips (like the 4800u) with similar x86 performance at a similar price point in a similar power envelope. How'd they do it? They designed it with 7nm lithography. It's not magic, just the obvious benefits of using the latest technology.
Intel might beat the previous generation of their competitors, but at what cost, absolutely impractical in reality. Scorchingly hot or noisy as hell, with poor battery life.
It's not magic and Intel is losing in a lot of aspects.
say the only laptop that is viable in your opinion is the M1 mac without saying the only laptop that is viable in your opinion is the M1 mac.
seriously though, by those standards, there aren't many laptops that aren't 'dealbreakers'.
7-9 hours of use is actually pretty goog, judging by the broader market.
3-4 hours of intensive use is...arguably on the low end of battery life.
4 hours intensive use would be a more of a deal breaker for me than the combined flaws of the pinebook pro, so I'd pay up to $200 for a laptop that only got 4 hours.
The problem is they don't make the larger workstation laptops with Intel only.
AFAIK there are no AMD laptops with 128 GB RAM. Quickly looking at Lenovo site, I couldn't even find one with 64, only 48.
Seems a right shame it lock you out of the 4K display though.
If you are not into gaming you can save big bucks and weight buying a laptop with integrated graphics. If you need a GPU for work you most probably need one with >8GB anyway.
PD: Why do so many laptops come with crapware instead of vanilla Windows? Why??? Why do laptop manufacturers tarnish their product so much? It remembers me so much of Android phones.
This might be a Lenovo-only problem. With Dell, you can customise-to-order a Precision 7760 with an 8-core Xeon, 128 GB unbuffered ECC memory, a lot of storage, and no discrete graphics card, if you so desire.
Many of these options aren't available on the site, but you can always call/chat in and from my experience, Dell will be happy to customise a machine to your requirements.
Fortunately I was able to find a local Lenovo partner, who has some internal access. But I don't understand why they don't have it public for whole EU.
Absolutely not. Even the latest gen Intel ThinkPads are power-hungry and wasteful. They either throttle to shit, run way too hot or run way too loud and you have increasingly terrible battery life in all three cases.
AMD resolves a few of those problems, you get more with the same power consumption, but still a good few steps behind a M1 Mac things combined.
There are other ARM machines as well, that run Linux more easily, but those aren't as high-performance yet.
Actually, one is an X1 Extreme Gen 3, and the other is a P1 Gen 3. Same machine with different GPUs.
My work provided me with the X1E with Ubuntu preinstalled (that is our standard dev environment). But I found the hardware support very unsatisfactory.
I use a specific display configuration. Three monitors in total: the ThinkPad's 4K display, with a 24" 4K display above it, and a second 24" 4K display to the left in portrait mode.
With Linux on the ThinkPad, I never got that to work. The best I could do was a single external monitor, not both of my external monitors plus the internal.
And I never got any of my Bluetooth headsets to work at all: Apple AirPods, Plantronics, and a couple of no-name brands. They all paired fine as headphones, but the microphones never worked.
I noticed that this work ThinkPad had a Windows license sticker on the bottom, so I figured what the heck, let's see what happens if I reinstall Windows.
The triple monitor config worked with no hitches. The AirPods worked fine.
So I set up a VMware virtual machine and run our dev environment inside that. Now everything works great! (I also tried VirtualBox but found the display responsiveness much better in VMware.)
Once this was sorted out, I was so happy with the machine that I bought a matching P1 for my new personal machine. (Regarding P1 vs. X1 Extreme, I just went with availability: Lenovo was out of stock on the X1E's but had a nicely configured P1 ready to ship.)
Most of the times if the port is directly connected to the dgpu it doesn't work under linux (this is, for what I understand, a problem with nvidia and their closed source optimus technology driver that is very hard to solve)
That's why I always made sure to buy Linux laptops with only the intel or amd igpu, and without any dgpu. Yeah, it sucks
The main issue with this setup is that both my USB-C ports are taken up but since most of my peripherals are wireless, it is not a problem for me. Another issue is that if I try to use the Intel graphics to drive this setup, everything basically crawls and is unusable so I can only use NVIDIA graphics with this (switching to Intel graphics is fine when I'm away from my desk).
[0]: https://www.amazon.sg/dp/B083RQHF3Y/ref=pe_12283492_38132264...
To me that doesn't sound like a hardware problem. I need to switch the codec & profile[0] in pavucontrol to use the microphones, which is not done automatically. That might be the issue here.
[0]: Damm you, bluetooth SIG
I wish more linux laptops had the build quality and support of macbooks. This isn't a rant from an Apple fan, this is a rant from a laptop fan. ThinkPad's aren't good laptops despite what the guy with the pocket protector says. They are flimsy and feel cheap. They still have 20th century tech (eraser mouse, c'mon!). They are my grandfather's laptop.
They are in no way flimsy, you will much easier damage internal components of nany Mac over Thinkpad T series.
but yes, they won't win any beauty contest - if you want reliable workhorse which is relatively ugly go for Thinkpad T series, if you want laptop for showing off go for Mac and other "brands"
I still love the old style keyboards - have they ever made a modern one with it? Last one (which I own and use still) that I know of is the T420
If you bought a T470 + T25 parts, you could FrankenPad it: https://www.xyte.ch/mods/t25-frankenpad/
Have you considered Dell's XPS line[0] (or their business equivalent, the Precision 55XX/57XX line)?
For a well-built notebook rivalling/exceeding the MacBook Pros, there's always the Precision 75XX/77XX line[1].
The new Precisions announced just a week ago with Intel Alder Lake CPUs[2] now have 16:10 displays, OLED, but still retain 'modern' features (some I consider regressions, like moving from dedicated trackpad buttons to a 'clickpad'). These are the notebooks with the new 'CAMM' memory modules.
Dell always has options for RHEL/Ubuntu from the factory, and these notebooks also run other distributions (I have a Precision 7560 running Windows 10/Arch) very well.
[0]: https://www.dell.com/en-us/work/shop/dell-laptops-and-notebo...
[1]: https://www.dell.com/en-us/work/shop/dell-laptops-and-notebo...
[2]: https://www.windowscentral.com/dell-precision-7770-7670-anno...
We don't think an aluminium bike is better than a carbon fibre bike, so why is an aluminium laptop better than a carbon fibre laptop? I mean aluminium has some nice advantages like heat dissipation but CFRP allows for much lighter laptops. If anything I prefer CRFP because of the weight advantages and because it's more of a "sleeper" material when laptops are VERY tempting for thieves.
I have only used them when clients specifically request it, but otherwise connect them to a workstation of my choice.
Feels like a static electrical layer. But after some time it’s gone
Unfortunately it seems to be quite difficult to buy grounded usb-c chargers. Most of them seem to come with C7 cables with no ground.
I get your point about "pass-through grounding" to the laptop, but then again, a lot of time the laptop is not connecting to a charging wire anyway.
Also, I'm in the UK with its crap ring circuits packed with 240v/13amps. I'd rather have a ground when I'm one fault away from 3000 watts momentarily being delivered to my lap. Especially with these exciting new GaN chargers and their open circuit failure modes..
It looks nice.
Which is completely subjective, of course, and purely about aesthetics. But for a personal item like a laptop, I think aesthetics are much more important than HN comments would let you believe.
Depends on how you define better. Carbon bikes are prone to catastrophic failure, and if you fall often are a bad idea. Of course, you might just say "just don't fall".
It is so much easier to wreck a carbon fiber frame than an alu frame. It just takes one pointy rock or one bad slide. Whereas an alu frame will only receive cosmetic damage
I can patch my fiber frame though, it's getting harder to "total" them nowadays imo. I've tried!
> Reed and other experts in carbon fiber agree that any material can fail. Wrecks happen from faulty aluminum, steel, and even rock-hard titanium. The difference with carbon fiber is that it can be difficult to detect signs of damage that might signal imminent failure. Cracks and dents in other materials are typically easy to see, but fissures in carbon fiber often hide beneath the paint. What’s worse is that when carbon fiber fails, it fails spectacularly. While other materials might simply buckle or bend, carbon fiber can shatter into pieces, sending riders flying into the road or trail. And this kind of catastrophic destruction can happen to any part of a bike made with the material.
> “It’s completely reasonable for someone who wants a lightweight bike to look at carbon fiber, but they need to understand the risks,” Elrath says. “Absolutely this is getting ignored.”
https://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor-gear/bikes-and-biking/...
There are plenty of videos from competitions where the carbon suddenly fails. I've never seen that with aluminum bikes. Last three accidents from 4:15:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kpeTiF_Tm04
But going back, if one is not racing, is it really worth the extra risk for minor performance improvements? Some say that after any serious fall/crash a carbon frame/component should be replaced because it's difficult to assess if it was damaged or not. How many can afford that?
As a counterpoint to the video you linked, I'm reminded of this video of Danny Macaskill having to work pretty hard to break a carbon rim: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VfjjiHGuHoc
> ... if one is not racing, is it really worth the extra risk for minor performance improvements?
It really depends on how much extra risk there is and how much the rider values the performance improvements. Without actual data about the (relative) risk of carbon fiber failure in bike components, we have to guess based on the information we have avaliable. Most of this seems to either be anecdotal, or coming from from interested parties, e.g. bike manufacturers, lawyers who make their living suing bike manufacturers, and journalists who are probably more interested in writing about something exciting happening than something exciting not happening. My impression is that the relative risk of of using carbon fiber in some (but perhaps not all) bike components is pretty small compared to the other risks involved in biking, and the performance improvements are big enough to be worth it for me, even though I don't race.
True of carbon as well, but they can be repaired in some cases; aluminum frames almost always need to be scrapped.
Regardless I find it very strange to compare a laptop with a bicycle. You would pick the materials when constructing either one for very different reasons.
You should try and compare a M1 Mac with your Carbon X1. Most likely yours runs much hotter.
Unless I'm mistaken, the material of the M1 Macs seems to be the same as before? If the machine runs at 100% resource usage, does the underside of the body no longer get so hot you can't have it in your lap?
Nope, never. That's not to say that if you run a Wii emulator for hours it doesn't get very warm, it's simply not intolerably hot. That's without fans. I'd expect a fan-equipped model to at most remain warm.
I've never run any emulators, I'm guessing they are about as resource-hungry as compiling things? Since laptops usually compile much slower than desktop computers, lots of time is spent compiling something when I use my laptops.
> it's simply not intolerably hot
I guess everyone's tolerance is different, but would you, while you run your Wii emulator, be able to have the laptop in your lap with just a thin garment between the laptop and your skin?
Pretty much, plus the GPU is in use.
> Would you be able to have the laptop in your lap with just a thin garment between the laptop and your skin?
Yes, that's what I originally meant as well. I'd prefer an actively cooled machine in such cases, obviously, but yes.
You had to be REALLY attached to MacOS or the Apple ecosystem to seriously consider a MBA. When Apple m1 was released, the battery life and performance situation VERY much changed making Apples product very very competitive as a standalone product. You absolutely made the right choice in 2018, but the game has changed and Apple is back.
I've used a plethora of modern latoptops, and to this day my favorite laptop is an ancient x200. It has not trackpad, only a track point. I upgraded it to heck, with a new ips screen, ram, new wireless card, storage, etc. The keyboard is wonderful, the screen looks great, The foot print of the laptop is quite small. I only wish I could have that laptop with a modern processor, as that's where it's fallen behind.
I've never enjoyed MacBook as much as that thing. I'm definitely not a granpa either.
https://liliputing.com/2018/03/x210-mod-turns-classic-lenovo...
(It was updated to use 10th gen Intel in 2019, I don't know if it runs the newest ones now though. Would really love if someone make a Ryzen part for it)
But it's, of course, a mod rather than a finished product, so...
It's the same reason why phones turned in to "premium" glass and metal sandwiches that people immediately slap in to a cheap plastic case because the "premium" design is simply too thin and slippery to use.
Samsung was rightly nailed in the 2010s for producing horrible plastic phones, but Nokia's use of quality polycarbonate in their Lumias were ignored.
People slap phones in to cheap plastic case to prevent scratches, or to make phones balanced in case of a camera sticking out of the back.
plastic can be (almost) infinitely recycled for industrial use, it's food use that has limited recyclability.
also: Macs are very hard to upgrade (sometimes it's impossible to) and become e-trash in a couple of years, while these "plastic" laptops can last a decade before being discarded as junk.
My experiences different, I'd still be rocking a 2014 MBP had it not suffered massive liquid damage. All Macs and MacBooks I or relatives have crossed or are going to cross the decade threshold with aplomb.
I too own a couple of 10+ years old Mac laptops.
They are perfect as doorstop.
Once the RAM is soldiered or one of the main components gets out of production it's all about luck
while it is simply a matter of repairing it or upgrading it in the case of an actually repairable "plastic" one.
8GB of RAM is plenty fine for me. I just don't have a thousand tabs opened (I never do anyway, whatever the RAM amount), which is mostly the usual problem but the state of the web platform and its runaway resource usage is another debate entirely.
> one of the main components gets out of production it's all about luck
You make it sound like it never happens with non-Apple hardware. With the flurry of devices that are put out every other month by a lot of hardware vendors, "out of production" often means a couple years, barely enough to cover warranty claims, and then they coast on stocked spare parts.
I am in the habit of trying to revive legacy hardware when people throw it away, and have a closet full of hardware barely older than 2-3 years that could not be repaired because of a broken part that should have been perfectly repairable were the part be available. Usually these get fixed by having two broken machines and doing a transplant, not by sourcing original parts from manufacturers. Batteries are loads of fun, even just one year after a product release it might be impossible to source an original one, either because they have additional import legislation so they're outright not distributed overseas, or because they're deemed consumables when they're field-swappable, and thus often not covered by warranties (and thus vendors don't make any effort stocking them), so you're left with buying third-party ones of obscure origins which can be either duds or fire hazards waiting to happen with a non-negligible probability. At least Apple puts forward some hard numbers so I know what I can rely on†.
Hell, just last year I restored a PoS system that had 1GB of RAM and a 8GB SSD, put some lightweight Linux on it, recovered a couple of ESC/POS thermal printers, hacked some bridge in Ruby between the PoS software and the printers, and the device chugged along for a solid year before finally giving up for good, which saved the store owner from shelling out stupid amounts of money and helped them bootstrap their business.
With hundreds of machines from various vendors that went through my hands I feel I have enough statistically significant data to extract trends and draw my own conclusions. These don't support that Apple devices become e-waste in short order, but I respect that your experience and opinion might be different, even though I don't adhere to it.
Great example. macOS Monterey minimum requirements: "MacBook Pro: Early 2015 and newer"
So Apple forces that device to be e-trash, regardless of your desires.
Uhh, nope. NVidia and Broadcom all over.
00:00.0 Host bridge: NVIDIA Corporation MCP79 Host Bridge (rev b1)
00:00.1 RAM memory: NVIDIA Corporation MCP79 Memory Controller (rev b1)
00:03.0 ISA bridge: NVIDIA Corporation MCP79 LPC Bridge (rev b3)
00:03.1 RAM memory: NVIDIA Corporation MCP79 Memory Controller (rev b1)
00:03.2 SMBus: NVIDIA Corporation MCP79 SMBus (rev b1)
00:03.3 RAM memory: NVIDIA Corporation MCP79 Memory Controller (rev b1)
00:03.4 RAM memory: NVIDIA Corporation MCP79 Memory Controller (rev b1)
00:03.5 Co-processor: NVIDIA Corporation MCP79 Co-processor (rev b1)
00:04.0 USB controller: NVIDIA Corporation MCP79 OHCI USB 1.1 Controller (rev b1)
00:04.1 USB controller: NVIDIA Corporation MCP79 EHCI USB 2.0 Controller (rev b1)
00:06.0 USB controller: NVIDIA Corporation MCP79 OHCI USB 1.1 Controller (rev b1)
00:06.1 USB controller: NVIDIA Corporation MCP79 EHCI USB 2.0 Controller (rev b1)
00:08.0 Audio device: NVIDIA Corporation MCP79 High Definition Audio (rev b1)
00:09.0 PCI bridge: NVIDIA Corporation MCP79 PCI Bridge (rev b1)
00:0a.0 Ethernet controller: NVIDIA Corporation MCP79 Ethernet (rev b1)
00:0b.0 SATA controller: NVIDIA Corporation MCP79 AHCI Controller (rev b1)
00:0c.0 PCI bridge: NVIDIA Corporation MCP79 PCI Express Bridge (rev b1)
00:15.0 PCI bridge: NVIDIA Corporation MCP79 PCI Express Bridge (rev b1)
00:16.0 PCI bridge: NVIDIA Corporation MCP79 PCI Express Bridge (rev b1)
02:00.0 VGA compatible controller: Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD/ATI] RV730/M96-XT [Mobility Radeon HD 4670]
02:00.1 Audio device: Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD/ATI] RV710/730 HDMI Audio [Radeon HD 4000 series]
03:00.0 Network controller: Qualcomm Atheros AR928X Wireless Network Adapter (PCI-Express) (rev 01)
04:00.0 PCI bridge: Texas Instruments XIO2213A/B/XIO2221 PCI Express to PCI Bridge [Cheetah Express] (rev 01)
05:00.0 FireWire (IEEE 1394): Texas Instruments XIO2213A/B/XIO2221 IEEE-1394b OHCI Controller [Cheetah Express] (rev 01)
This is a 'Late 2009 27" iMac', running the internal display as well as an external 1920*1200 24" monitor through a DP->HDMI cable. Everything works, including the silly IR remote control thingy (tested using the IR blaster on my phone).
When they go out of security support these machines work quite well under Linux (as I could test myself, I recycled a bunch already).
Plastic doesn't grow on trees either. Its production has huge impacts on the environment.
Aluminum is highly and easily recyclable. In fact Apple makes their MacBook enclosures from 100% recycled aluminum. No other computer manufacturer can make the same claim regarding the production of their plastic body notebooks.
The idea that plastic can be infinitely recycled is just that: an idea. The infrastructure for recycling plastic is far more complex than recycling aluminum, as well as essentially non-existent.
Apple computers have a history of having high resell values and long lifespans. You can see the evidence of that just by looking at eBay. And when they do eventually get tossed out that aluminum body can actually be recycled, where the same claim for plastic bodied notebooks cannot be factually made.
I seriously believe it's time we start considering Apple a religion.
Technology company HP Inc., Palo Alto, California, has a product and service portfolio that includes personal computer systems, printers and 3D printing solutions. Increasingly, the company’s products are manufactured using recycled-content plastics
All the ocean-bound plastic that HP incorporates into its products is PET. The company says its HP Elite c1030 Chromebook Enterprise laptop is the world’s first Chromebook made with ocean-bound plastic. The device also is made from 75 percent recycled aluminum and features a keyboard made from 50 percent recycled plastics
HP is using ocean-bound plastics in its products, with the Dragonfly is made of 80% recycled materials
HP has just launched new ENVY notebooks that offer creators the freedom. The ENVY laptops are also made from recycled aluminum
In 2018, we began implementing the use of an innovative bio-based packaging made from bamboo and sugar cane fiber. The material is not only 100 percent biodegradable, it is lighter than previous packaging and its strength characteristics enable design improvements that reduce overall package size.
This new packaging was used to to ship memory cards and one of our ThinkPad models. With lighter packaging materials and package weight, the result was 6.7 percent less transportation CO2 emissions. We are therefore looking to expand the use of this bamboo and sugar cane fiber packaging innovation.
Over a decade ago, Lenovo began using 100% recycled and recyclable packaging material. Instead of using polystyrene packaging, we now encourage the use of molded pulp, fiber and low-density polyethylene (LDPE).
Lenovo unveiled their latest range of gizmos at CES 2022 a short while back, including the new ThinkPad Z Series of laptops featuring eco-friendly designs. The ThinkPad series is made from 75% recycled materials, the Z13 and Z16 are made from 100% recycled aluminium
just to name a couple of them.
Every brand out there is greenwashing its name...
Anyway
Apple has committed to be 100% carbon neutral in terms of its supply chain and products *by 2030*
Apple's entire macbook line, both Air and Pro, have bodies made from 100% recycled aluminum.
The examples you provided, it's 50% recycled plastics or 75% recycled aluminum or 80% over-all or if 100% recycled aluminum is used it's only for some of their product lines.
Given all of that: I never said other companies aren't trying, and I'm not dismissing their efforts. I just said they can't make the same claim. Additionally, when it comes to recycling those plastic bodies the infrastructure just isn't there like it is for aluminum.
> Every brand out there is greenwashing its name...
I'm glad they're doing it, even if it's just to improve their brand image and not out of actual concern for the environment.
> I seriously believe it's time we start considering Apple a religion.
:roll_eyes:
Saying Macs become "e-trash in a couple years" is similarly way way off the mark. Expected life for many Macs is a decade or more. I have one that is from 1984 that still works perfectly. After that, much of the machine is fully recyclable, and the case is 100% recyclable.
I too own a Commodore 64 from 1983, an Atari ST, an Amiga 500 and a 286 Amstrad PC.
> Saying Macs become "e-trash in a couple years" is similarly way way off the mark
They are forced out of the market by the company upgrade policies.
What is the value of an Intel Mac now that Mx(s) are out?
And the animus against standard OS upgrades is not particularly convincing, to me at least.
The value of Intel Macs is holding up just fine. I can go sell my 2019 Intel MBP and still get a lot more out of it than a PC laptop of similar vintage. This has of course been historically true of Macs, as well, as even a cursory investigation will reveal.
I can't tell you how many times in my life I've seen a laptop come crashing to the ground. For somebody like me MagSafe is an actual competitive advantage because of the multiple laptop charging ports I've destroyed by tripping over the cord accidentally. I am not alone.
And I also like the right angle nature of the thing because of my my desk works.
Yes.
> Do you keep dropping your laptop?
Yes.
> My question is what is the use of such a build quality
Travel. As a former on-the-road consultant my laptops have taken all kinds of beatings - spills, inconsiderate recliners, drops etc. A (small) part of my preference for Apple machines is that they can be replaced with something basically identical almost anywhere in the world almost immediately by visiting either a first or third party store when something bad happens. Even commercial warranties with on-site support don’t get that good.
I'm glad my "Linux laptops" are very much not like those macbooks with their glue and solder and "no user-serviceable parts inside (and we really mean it)"
> This isn't a rant from an Apple fan, this is a rant from a laptop fan. ThinkPad's aren't good laptops despite what the guy with the pocket protector says. They are flimsy and feel cheap. They still have 20th century tech (eraser mouse, c'mon!). They are my grandfather's laptop.
The good thing with those machines is that you'll be able to keep on using your grandfather's laptop while those whose grandfathers opted for macbooks are left wanting. I'm using a T42p from 2005, apart from putting in an SSD I have not changed the thing. It was, and still is, a perfectly useable tool.
Support even better in a way, since they'll just ship you a replacement part rather than charge you through the nose for 'Framework Care' only to tell you it's old and needs replacing, can trade in if you want or send it off for weeks to have a 'refurbished' (not new) part fitted.
- cheap: plastic
- decent: aluminium
- better: magnesium, carbon,...
> they feel cheap
You mean they don't feel heavy. Some people confuse that for cheap. Similarly macs look like good engineering, but ...
No. The 2011 MacBook Air was light but rigid. It is still used by my parents 11 years later.
The hinge is still perfect.
Again feels rigid, but .... You can actually step on a thinkpad, but just google "macbook air bend". The MacBook Air is still a great laptop, but if you think it is more rigid than the competition, no it just might feel that way.
When I had to use a Macbook for work a few years back, I was unable to use the keyboard for more than 15-20 minutes without it flaring my RSI. That's compared to about an hour or so I can get on my Thinkpad.
I've owned alu-slab macbooks (personal) and company-owned thinkpads for a long time.
If you bump the macbook, you get a permanent ding. Nothing happens on the fiber for comparable force (unless you literally crack it).
If you flex the notebook, the alu can be permanently deformed. The "cheapo plastic" will easily take a ton of torsional deformation without complaining.
It's a very functional chassis in my eyes.
And I love the boring look honestly. I'm kind of disappointed that recent models switched to a more grey-bluish look.
I recently got an old refurbished Thinkpad T430 for casual use when I am not near my desktop and installed Debian + LXDE on it. T430s are models from 10 years ago and is more enjoyable to work on than the 2019 MacBook Pro provided by my employer that I have to use for work. The only way I can make the MacBook tolerable is by using it in clamshell mode connected to monitors + physical keyboard/mouse so I don't have to interact with the actual hardware. It takes off like a rocket engine and warms my side desk pretty well (not to mention physically hot to touch, can't even imagine using it on my "lap"), docker is crap on it, not to mention the cmd-ctrl nonsense in addition to the things mentioned earlier. I have already dropped my Thinkpad a couple of times in pretty bad falls as it has survived whereas I don't have the same level of confidence in the MacBook.
This is false.
This monstrosity first appeared on the X1 Carbon 2nd gen (along with the loss of our beloved dedicated trackpoint buttons), and the backlash was so big that they reinstated all the buttons for the next generation.
Also, outside of SDD or RAM, what else are you upgrading? Does it even need to have that capability considering how often you do? Would you rather have better parts that won’t fail so easily in a slimmer, sleeker, design than one that sacrifices weight and size to allow you to maybe have the choice?
I like right to repair. I like being able to upgrade something. The frequency of which I upgrade my ram and sdd is about as frequently as I’ll need a new motherboard anyway as my board is outdated 4x cycles.
- It's light
- It's a bit more durable (or perhaps forgiving) when it comes to drops and dents
- It's less expensive
- If the laptop is built properly (not always a guarantee) it's just a sturdy
Forgiving for drops and dents? Yeah, I’ll give you that. Carbon fiber is durable, not scratch proof though.
Less expensive, yes, and you get those discounts bleeding into the components they use and the specs. Spec a high end Dev machine and compare with MacBook offering and it’s not even close. System76 is getting there, but they still use plastics too.
Build quality, I completely agree with this. The problem is production quality isn’t guaranteed and I had more issues with PC laptops (Dell, HP, Lenovo) than I have with my MacBooks (2008, 2012, 2014, 2020 M1).
No?
X1 Nano: 907g
Macbook Air 13: 1290g
So just 70% percent of the weight.
X1 Carbon: 1120g
Macbook Pro 14: 1600g
Again 70%.
So they are much lighter, not just a little.
Despide some Lenovo BS plays on firmware etc a thinkpad is still, in the age of making everything fancy looks over functionality, a thinkpad. A reliable product.
I've been trying to find a substitute for years. I can't find one. Macbooks are (generally) good products, but they don't have trackpoints, I don't like their keyboards, linux compatibility is not where I like it to be, and definitely not upgradeable.
The body is extremely sturdy along with the hinges.
It's not plastic - it's magnesium alloy. They are not flimsy or cheap.
Have you ever used a trackpoint? It's extremely ergonomic and much better than a trackpad. It requires a bit of time to get used to it - but it's totally worth the time investment.
And please don't make comments like 'Grandfather's laptop'. Just because something is old doesn't mean it's not good.
Look up Richard Sapper - the person who designed the IBM Thinkpad - a lot of brilliant design thinking went into this.
If something is highly functional, durable and can be easily repaired - that's beautiful. Aesthetically the Thinkpads are beautiful as well - an understated beauty vs the 'look at me, look at me - I'm shiny and thin'.
The casual dismissal of TrackPoints in the grandparent comment shows that the author has never tried one.
They're a great and innovative "backup" pointing device when one doesn't have access to a mouse or touchpad. They really don't compare to either of those more expressive and efficient options, though.
I've tried to use track points. A dozen or so times. Recently I got a new thinkpad from work and gave it another go, same result. I just don't like it.
Granted, the trackpad on my thinkpad is also garbage. I prefer my external trackball mouse.
Trackpoint fanatics don't seem to understand what works for them doesn't necessarily work for everyone. I find myself rolling my eyes a lot in threads like this.
I had the same experience initially - uh, this is awkward to use - but I stuck with it and now can't go back.
Why not use both?
For precision movements, I use the trackpoint with my index.
For large movements or scrolling, I use the touchpad with one or both or my thumbs.
Likewise with the physical mouse buttons on the trackpad. It’s 2022. We have touch screens with gestures and stuff. Why do I still have to use a physical button? Tap to click you say? Turning that on means being even in near-field proximity to the trackpad means it’s a click, whether you wanted it to or not.
Your fingers are not on the trackpoint when you type. The mouse pointer doesn't move when you use the keyboard.
Also, the three trackpoint buttons are right under your thumb - your hand literally doesn't have to move away from the keyboard. No touch screen necessary. That would be even worse having to move from keyboard to screen.
It really sounds like you've not used the trackpoint correctly.
But it's great that there are options and it seems you've found what works for you.
I recently bought my first thinkpad, a second hand Gen 5 X1 carbon, and I really like it.
I haven't yet invested the effort in learning to use the trackpoint.
I guess you use your index finger on the trackpoint, and thumb on the mouse buttons? For scrolling it seems you hold the middle button with the thumb and then scroll with the trackpoint?
Do you normally disable the trackpad?
- Use your index finger for the track point
- Thumb for the 3 buttons under the space bar
- Middle button is to enable scroll mode
You don't need to disable the track pad.
I did though and it can also help to force you to learn the track point.
------
The ThinkPad TrackPoint
im not sure i would like carrying all that extra weight around either. its not like i an going out on an expedition everyday where i need my laptop to hold up in all sorts of extreme situations. ive never even dropped or broken any of my "plastic" laptops and I've been using them for a few decades now
I've used Linux for 20 years on desktops, but laptops, where hardware/software integration is crucial, I've never found something trouble free. Wireless and video drivers tend to be good only if you use intel. That limits you on a GPU choice. Probably an AMD APU would work well, but the dual intel iGPU+nvidia is terrible on Linux
Are they firing on all cylinders on the software side too? Great hardware combined with software that makes ones life unnecessarily difficult would cause one to bail to something that's better suited to them overall.
I've been keeping a wary eye on how Apple controls root access, and I'm on the fence regardless of how great the M2 is, though the Asahi folk could earn Apple a few purchases
If you are specifically choosing something that works trouble free with Linux (i.e. popular with the kernel and distro developers), then this needn't apply. And practically speaking there could be nothing more popular than workstation ThinkPads.
I want to not be tethered to a desk while working and not lose perf to get ok battery life. These P1's are the closest I have seen though.
Like tho good Linux support though.
I'll need to carry a palm rest as well then.
The author bought a model that can come with an Nvidia GPU so I'm guessing they might be on X11. That could explain their problems.
In some ways it's better because I can use 3 finger click to close tabs and open links in new tabs.
Unlike in the article, I'm not a fan of the fingerprint reader. It rarely recognises me and (at least on fedora) I need to try it a few times before it will fall back to letting me type my password.
I think some brands have tried this (like ones that include a mechanical keyboard or a screen) and the feedback about having the keyboard closer to the user and not having a "shelf" you can wrest your wrists on is almost always negative. YMMV.
From my experience, Linux support for Lenovo devices is terrible.
ACPI, power management, and UEFI are consistently causing problems. Grub has an issue with the 4K display, causing it to render at about 1 FPS. The dual-GPU (Intel and nVidia) situation is unworkable under Linux. Suspend on lid close is unpredictable. The fingerprint reader has never worked, and the driver for the TPM appears unfinished business under Linux. The battery life under Linux is about half of what you can expect from Windows.
My setup with the AN40 Thunderbolt dock probably makes it worse, the AN40 (even under Windows) is a terrible buggy mess, after about 10 firmware updates it is now somewhat usable under Linux. Resume from stand-by is a gamble each morning. Prepare to reboot and power-cycle often if you want to run this dock under Linux. fwupd does not work for all peripherals (such as the TB dock), so you'll often need Windows to perform firmware updates.
Maybe I could solve some of this stuff if I'd spend some time on it, I don't know. I do know that as long as I run Linux as my daily driver, my next laptop won't be a Lenovo.
ThinkPad battery life could be a bit better, but that's my fault for choosing the 4k one.
My current work system is a P53 that has an Nvidia GPU though and it's been working very very well for me through updates and the like via dkms.
The only other problem on that list I've encountered was within the first month or so after buying my T14s suspend support was a problem.
A bad dock can introduce a lot of problems.
That's why I bought the $400 official Lenovo dock.
Unfortunately, I can't do my daily work without the dock. (at least not without having to introduce numerous dongles and USB hubs, which may cause more issues)
The most recent laptops are very good, but their support of linux is lacking compared with the older ones. As a rule of thumb, I try to find the model page in arch wiki before any purchase, it should list most of the common problems and how to fix them (if they are fixable at all, your X1-Extreme page for example[1]).
[1]: https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Lenovo_ThinkPad_X1_Extreme
I have been buying Asus ever since. Not the prettiest machines but durable and reliable.
I wish I could switch to an intel gpu. I’ve considered buying a thunderbolt dock just so I can not use nvidia when at home.
You almost certainly only need to run two or three efibootmgr commands to accomplish this. For most people that means only the "Using UEFI directly" section is relevant.
https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/EFISTUB
S3 suspend was removed as a default option by many hardware manufacturers. You will likely need to enter the BIOS to change this.
There is a bug in 5.17.x kernels where suspend doesn't work with bluetooth enabled. It will be fixed soon.
I run Windows dual boot, since I need (native) Windows for certain work related tasks.
> S3 suspend was removed as a default option by many hardware manufacturers. You will likely need to enter the BIOS to change this.
It's on, S3 is not the problem
> There is a bug in 5.17.x kernels where suspend doesn't work with bluetooth enabled. It will be fixed soon.
I'm not running 5.17.
But frankly, I don't want to care about all this "oh, but you just have to do [insanely_technical_thing]"
Sure, if I invest $LOTS_OF_TIME in it, I might be able to fix most of the issues. But this is a $3000 professional laptop, which is supposed to have good Linux support. This machine is my work equipment and I chose this expensive machine so I don't have to tinker with this stuff. It should just work.
If your firmware has a "boot from" hotkey (usually F12), then you use that as your dual-boot menu.
That's a big fail by Lenovo then, so why didn't you return it? When the support guys logged in to your computer to fix it, what did they do -- just go "yeah, or product is crap" and usher you away?
Mostly because I had more important things to do at the time. Though not perfect, the computer does work, it does get the job done.
And also, I wouldn't know which other brand/model to get. I made my decision to buy the X1E based on the HN community recommending Lenovo as having one of the best support for Linux. So if I switch to a different brand, I might end up with an even worse Linux experience, so it wasn't worth the risk to me.
There are know models and model lines that do so (like the T line). Usually they were / are even offered in variants with Linux preinstalled from Lenovo web site.
Other models may have and do have problems, unsupported hardware, etc.
Windows also supports EFI boot.
> I run Windows dual boot, since I need (native) Windows for certain work related tasks.
The windows/efi boot menu can handle dual boot.
But, assuming you want/need secure boot and bitlocker - I'm not sure if there is an easy way to avoid having to type in recovery key on kernel updates :/
Perhaps efi > direct windows and efi > grub > Linux might work? Probably still needs recovery key for bitlocker after grub update? Maybe this is solved now - I don't dual boot any machines w bitlocker right now.
>It should just work.
Then you should buy a laptop that ships with Linux and has official support from the vendor. Like the Dell XPS Developer edition, or anything from System76.
Regardless I sympathize, as I recently had a good deal of trouble updating from BIOS to UEFI. The 4K issue seems to also affect Dell XPS15 and leads to a kernel panic on the latest Canonical Live CD [1]
[1] https://cenains.blog/2022/05/01/converting-boot-mode-from-bi...
You can even enroll this EFI payloads from within the BIOS by just selecting the file from the EFI partition if you forgot to add them into your UEFI (ie if they don't show in your F12 boot options)
That is factually wrong: if you create other EFI entries with different kernel payloads, then enroll them in your UEFI bios, you can select them at boot time in a menu.
This is how I test cmdline options (same kernel packaged in different .EFI)
If you forgot to do that before a problem, but still have the old payloads around, you can even use the UEFI to add EFI payloads by selecting their files from your EFI partition.
I am not an expert in uefi but my uefi system does not give me the ability to pass command line arguments to the kernel. I actually went to check and took a picture[1].
According to your statement that means you need a working system to repack your kernel if you do not use grub. That kind of proves the opposite of what you write.
With grub you can set kernel arguments in an ephemeral way by just interrupting the boot. In the past, when testing failing kernels it was mighty useful to add a magic argument to the kernel.
I guess I'm really curious what there is to gain by bypassing grub if anything?
> This got me looking around at how one would load a luks or dm-crypt encrypted drive from efi without grub.
systemd-boot lets you define an encrypted drive at installation, which is what I do for my LUKS devices. Whole thing works pretty flawlessly, in my experience.
> I guess I'm really curious what there is to gain by bypassing grub if anything?
I mean, you're not "bypassing" anything; Linux has molecularity at it's core, it's perfectly normal to swap out it's surrounding components to personalize your system. Personally, I pass on GRUB because systemd-boot is fast. Booting with GRUB takes 10-45 seconds depending on your hardware and encryption setup: I've never seen systemd-boot take longer than 15. If you're not dual-booting or doing any fancy baremetal stuff, I think most people would be perfectly happy with it. GRUB certainly still has it's place though, and I'm glad it exists.
Once my desktop using the EFISTUB setup had a kernel that failed to boot, stuck at some filesystem error. Then I had to come up with a rescue plan at the spot, because there was no other way to boot into the desktop and there was no tutorial to help with this at the time.
The issues of EFISTUB:
- It doesn't interact with kernel updates nicely. I used a script in /etc/kernel/postinst.d to copy /vmlinuz to \EFI\debian\vmlinuz.efi. There is no rollback, and no multiple kernels.
- It doesn't work well with kernel parameters. The parameters are encoded in UEFI NVRAM. You have to create separate entries for different kernel parameters, or manipulate the NVRAM back and forth with efibootmgr, which is another gun that easily shoots the foot (you can easily mess up the bootorder variable).
- It doesn't play nicely with Windows and Secure Boot.
I also use multiple kernels and I have had issues with kernel updates, and no issues with kernel parameters. However, there is friction with creating separate entries and so I created a very simple shell script to save my commands.
I’ve had no issues dual booting with Windows using BitLocker. I do not use secure boot (yet).
If you’re willing to spend an hour to set it up, I’d go for it. However, that’s an hour of your life you can save with Grub.
For one I wouldn't put great confidence in a script to manipulate UEFI boot entries, because it is not idempotent and there are precedents to brick the UEFI with unexpected sequence of interaction. Also Windows' reboot options and its annual upgrade tend to mess with the boot variables. I had to help repair colleagues' laptops that had Grub's boot entries erased by Windows upgrades.
I'm mostly a Windows user, and this has never happened in my experience: at worst Windows might reorder the UEFI boot options, or change the default boot option, but it has never overwritten or erased an entry.
At worst they are still available in the F12 boot menu.
You can embed the parameters in the EFISTUB, this is explained in the arch wiki.
I use that to test different parameters with the same kernel packaged in different EFI payload, which I can select from the F12 boot menu if I don't want to use the commands to specify "use this payload only for the next boot"
At work, RHEL on Thinkpad is one of the standard offerings, and has continued to be across many generations. EVERYTHING works. I've had a work-provided RHEL Thinkpad (T450) which was smooth and seamless, as have my colleagues (most of them chose X1 variations, some T480, some with the newer T14).
I have a large number of Thinkpads at home and I want to install Linux on some of them, but comments like these make me wonder how much extra work and special juice our IT department had to commit in order to make it happen - and what my own experience would be in real world.
If it is just a normal Intel with integrated graphics / ultra-book it will work out of the box with distros like Ubuntu.
Oh and yes, avoid nvidia if you do Linux. Some people say it "works for them", but I for one would recommend just completely staying away from Linux if you want nvidia.
The truth is, and will probably always be, that you have to do some research before buying HW if you're using Linux and don't feel lucky.
I wouldn't say they're lying, per se, just that it's not 100% true. If you use PopOS with an X1 Extreme then almost all of those features work out of the box. On another OS they may not though. A good portion of what OP is describing require some applications present (and configured) in the userland, just having drivers isn't enough. The bit about grub I'm not sure about, but I believe it; that said grub is always a YMMV situation in my experience.
I use Linux entirely for programming, and I already do that on VM's, on a server that I have. I basically just need to SSH and start Vim to do whatever I need to.
I have decided to move to using a Macbook Air with OS X. I like iTerm2 more and can just SSH into my Linux VM's. I am waiting to see if the new Air's launched this year will have dual monitor support, otherwise will just get an Intel based Macbook Air from 2019 or 2020.
> Suspend on lid close is unpredictable.
Yeah, same experience here. The worst part is I can't even figure out how to debug this stuff. No idea where things are going wrong. I've gotten as far as dumping ACPI tables and disassembling some of its code but I can't find anything relevant.
What is Windows doing that Linux isn't? It can't be so insanely difficult, can it?
> The dual-GPU (Intel and nVidia) situation is unworkable under Linux.
Yup. Gotta choose one of them, can't use hybrid graphics.
> The battery life under Linux is about half of what you can expect from Windows.
I think it's due to power management issues, especially the dGPU which can't be turned off due to lack of hybrid graphics. On my laptop I got great battery life after disabling the GPU in the firmware settings.
Also, pretty much everything is GPU accelerated nowadays. Even terminal emulators. Kitty for example will cause massive power usage spikes.
Could not agree more. I was using mac's for a decade prior to buying thinkpad X1E a couple years ago. It's been an absolute disaster and I now loath them. Multiple years after purchase, the only distro I could find that even half works is Fedora.
Docking is worse, even under windows. So the dock was working under linux for a while but as a last week it's completely non-functional, no usb, no display. Under windows, probably 25% of the time the USB devices don't function on startup, and have to be unplugged and plugged back in. I was trying to run a monitor with hdmi and it would half the time not wake up. Switched to display port and it's a little better but still problematic. And if your computer goes to sleep, it's 5-10 minutes of trying to wake and often requires hard power cycle to come back. I had to set the computer to sleep only after 2 hour or so. This is with all firmware and os updates applied.
In the future, will be be selling these hot messes, and moving to a framework laptop. Doubtful I every buy another thinkpad, I have many fond memories of my first couple of IBM based thinkpads those were awesome machines.
Just lower the resolution in grub's config file.
The reason is that I almost never use my laptop on a table, and the trackpoint makes it more comfortable, as you don't have to move your hand between the keyboard and down so much.
I guess is an adquired taste, but it's one of these things that keep me in thinkpads.
Unless you mean Apple. I don't get the obsession with Apple's trackpads. My experience with them hasn't been great. They do integrate very nicely with the OS and they are pretty nice and big, but I don't really see or feel the difference between a Thinkpad or a Probook with Windows precision drivers and a Macbook.
My slick 5800h Lenovo laptop also runs Linux but is faster, lighter, cuter, and simply better in every respect. Battery lasts over 15 hours easily, depending on display brightness.
Seriously, I can't stress enough how bad this specific hardware is.
Compatibility wise, my experience has been slowly degrading. I've had to force the Intel GPU driver to use DRI 2 or X11 wouldn't work (this might have something to do with the manual config in the sound system I needed to get the sound working when I bought the laptop because Intel hadn't released proper drivers yet).
I'd use Wayland, but that just doesn't work with the Nvidia GPU (even though it should in modern drivers). A recent kernel update broke sleep for me, it now no longer goes to sleep and immediately wakes up.
I also occasionally get full system freezes whenever GDM tries to load the login screen, either on boot or when switching users. Those have been becoming more rare lately but it's still happening every now and then. Just a black screen, the computer slowly heating up and nothing.
Lastly, for firmware updates you just need to boot Windows every now and then. Some firmware updates come through fwupdmgr, but others need to be installed manually or through a Windows install.
Perhaps I need a reinstall Linux, perhaps I need to switch distros. It works fine with it works: touchpad is nice and responsive, has full multi finger gesture support in Wayland, the keyboard is good and the palm rejection is a pain when trying to game on the touchpad but it works great for normal typing. I've also found it a lot quieter and longer lasting on Linux than on Windows, where the CPU and GPU either underclock dramatically or the fan spins up constantly.
From my experience with Dell XPS/Precision, Lenovo Thinkpads, IBM Thinkpads, and finally MacBooks, the MacBooks are far ahead. The Thinkpads trackpad are way too small, and Dell's are now days large enough but too imprecise. Both the Dell ones will sometimes trigger a click when typing on the keyboard since the trackpad is too sensitive.
I'll agree that they used to be exceptionally good before the Windows 10 precision drivers became widespread, though. Those made a huge difference in the PC world, for Windows and Linux support, and it took the industry many years to get to that level.
Going by the current state of my touchpad, I use about 60% of the area of my current touchpad so honestly I'm fine with the size on my Thinkpad P1 gen3. The HP Probook I had before that (which, to be fair, is eight years old now) definitely had a touchpad that was too small.
Apple also seems to be the only company that produces a decent external touchpad, which is irritating. I feel like I'm more productive with a touchpad but finding an affordable touchpad with decent reviews is nearly impossible, except for Apple's magic trackpad. The best alternatives seem to be Chinese clones from Aliexpress but I don't feel like writing my own drivers to get those to work well with Linux.
That is because its only recently that nouveau has stabilized sufficiently that it tends to work in the common cases on that platform. If your not running a bleeding edge distro/kernel getting random monitors connected via the onboard HDMI or TB3/TB4 docks are pretty much out of the question. Even then, its hit/miss with the latest 5.17+ kernels. The problem are so numerous that they aren't worth going over, but the end result is that for most people the only way to get it working (say with a couple monitors plugged into the TB4 dock) is to use the proprietary nvidia drivers. Which wouldn't be so bad, but that also means not having secure boot, and hibernate/standby/etc will also have issues.
Bottom line, for linux unless you _REALLY_ need the nvidia get it without.
Why buy a ThinkPad if you don't use its most important selling point?
I bought a couple of ThinkPads because they're well tested on Linux, have the best non-mechanical keyboard on a laptop that I know of (even after Lenovo), and have a decent build.
I can't stand using the TrackPoint despite having tried a few times, but my workflow relies more on a keyboard and any decent scrolling device, for which two-finger scroll on the touchpad more than suffices.
(Similarly, I used a thumb trackball for a long time, and eventually my thumb started to have issues as well.)
For occasional use, these things are great. Long term under heavy use, I have my doubts. It's always better to use the bigger muscles and joints if you can.
But for couch surfing at home I haven't used a mouse in years.
The Thinkpad 760 I had only had a Trackpoint, so when I was using it as my main machine, I used it 8-ish hours a day. The last joint in my pointer finger was pretty sore by the time I stopped using it.
On Windows, it's buttery smooth and a joy to use. On Linux, the refresh rate tops out at 80 Hz, and if you so much as lightly touch the touchpad with your palm, it goes further down to ~45 Hz for the next few seconds. All of this makes for a very rough, jerky and imprecise movement.
I really want to use Linux on my T14, but this problem just makes the experience a pain. I really wonder if everybody recommending using TrackPoint and running Linux have somehow solved this issue?
You could try playing around with the settings in /sys/devices/platform/i8042/serio1/. The file "sensitivity" or "rate" might be what you're looking for.
The amount of power and open source VULKAN friendliness is going to be incredible.
I look forward to being able to do container work, and emulate Gamecube games all on a single Linux machine.
[0] https://www.aroged.com/2022/04/16/lenovo-thinkpad-t14s-gen-3... [1] https://www.notebookcheck.net/Lenovo-ThinkPad-Z13-Exclusive-...
Something significant has to happen before I buy another Intel/Nvidia combo ever again. I'd much rather suffer the mediocre OS and go to Apple.
Framerates are very playable, but fall short of perfect. No up-scaling used.
There's a set of known hardware issues (e.g. unable to resume from suspend, USB ports stop working until hardware reset is performed through the pinhole, ...) and I've been experiencing _all_ of them regularly. Never had these kinds of issues with an Intel machine (as they have much more battle-tested hardware).
I'd recommend to only buy an AMD laptop if you have a fallback and can afford to treat it more as a tinkering toy type thing. Note that some of the hardware issues also affect other OSes than Linux.
Personally I'm getting rid of this thing in favour of an Intel machine again.
the only tweaks i've had to make are
1. enabling bluetooth service to autostart (disabled by default by distro for security)
2. installing the amdgpu vaapi drivers to get hardware video decoding in MPV and tweak some Chromium flags to get hardware video decode on Youtube, etc.
the only "issue" i've run into is getting TRIM to be re-detected properly for UASP-capable USB storage devices [0], but it's so minor that no one except me will notice :). it's not a ThinkPad problem, but likely something in linux's udev.
i dont use the fingerprint sensor, TPM or secure boot, so cant say anything about those.
(supposedly switching suspend mode to linux in bios helps, too)
[0] https://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/700672/udev-rules-o...
I haven't seen even a frankenpad option to transplant an OLED on the P14s Gen 2 AMD
The only thing that bothers me is that lack of S3 sleep on the HP but that was a choice by HP and can the ACPI tables can be patched in the BIOS.
I never got wakeup from S3 suspend to work, it just froze; wakeup from S0ix actually worked ok for a while with a recent kernel (5.16 iirc), with a random kernel commandline addition (iommu=pt) to avoid a random 14-second pause on lid open (always exactly 14 seconds!). But wireless was still flaky on wakeup.
I played a bunch with powertop and different settings to try to get reasonable efficiency. Tried getting hardware video decode to work with YouTube/Firefox (vdpau / va-api); it sort of did, except when it crashed.
Then one day a week into the adventure, it just stopped waking up from suspend, after I-don't-know-what changed. Needed a hardware reset each time I opened the lid. I returned the laptop and bought an M1 Air instead; I love my Thinkpads and open systems but I also love good engineering.
System integration / QA / getting quality polished firmware is an underappreciated art it seems!
https://www.notebookcheck.net/Lenovo-announces-the-ThinkPad-...
Using privately a X220 and begin mobile with it is just remains a nice device. Standard keyboard, standard performance and pleasure to carry around without worries.
PS: I'm surprised that Lenovo still don't give users a "quick start manual" explaining how to use the TrackPoint. It is a game changer for everyone capable of touch-typing. Why leave a good keyboard when your fingertips can remain there? I don't blame the users here. Apple contrary uses video advertisements as hidden "introducton guide" to buyers. Remember when IBM just didn't build in TrackPads? The area was used a palm-rest.
(0) https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/1870971
Fedora, for example, will always use the latest upstream kernel while keeping the rest of the packages reasonably stable. Usually, this plays nicer with new hardware.
This one could be a better value compare to the Intel one, if it provides support for Thunderbolt 3 eGPUs.
One downside I can think of is that T14s usually only comes with soldered on RAMs, no DIMM slot, meaning it's less upgradable (say to 64G of RAM). That's why I'm waiting for a new AMD T14 which should come with a DIMM slot and hopefully USB4. And if Lenovo failed to deliver the T14 that I want, then I'll probably just get an E14/old-style XPS13. I don't really need cellular connectivity, fingerprint scanner and backlit keyboard anyway :-\
Have used T42, T500, T440p, X1E gen2 throughout the years, all with versions of Fedora.
Most things just work.
The X1E gen2 needed a bit work to curb (idle) power consumption. The SD card reader would prevent the CPU package from entering C10, and the fans were always running even when the machine was not warm.
I have the version with the NVidia dedicated GPU, which works pretty well. It's off most of the time, and is only turned on when needed.
Idle power consumption is now as low of 3.9w.
ugh :(
I guess us Apple folks just got spoiled down the line.
But knowing that there is at least a somewhat of a good Linux laptop option out there is nice to know, I guess.
I got greedy and switched to a MBP 14 with M1 Pro, which is also great, but almost everything (speakers and trackpad excepted) on P14s was either on par or even better (perf, ports, weight, noise, keyboard, build, screen, battery...). MBP is excellent, but I miss my Arch setup a lot and don't think I would miss anything from the MBP actually if I switched back.
I know Lenovo is going downwards with Thinkpad line, but P series seems to still hold well - for now at least :/
I guess 2015 was the year of the Linux desktop.
Keyboard is excellent, not old school X or P good, but it's better than any other keyboard you are going to find on a laptop sold now.
They tried making a few of those over the years, and it was (thankfully) always reverted in the next generation.
I've been thinking of maybe moving to one of them, but ME Cleaner doesn't seem to have Coffee/Comet Lake covered yet. https://github.com/corna/me_cleaner/wiki/me_cleaner-status
It is ok, but you do not get the yeah this machine feels "solidly awesome" like I got with older Thinkpads 420, 440P or older Dell's Precision lineup.
The real show stopper was that Lenovo used some no name Chinese made M2 SSD as the primary, leaving more respectable WD in a secondary slot.
The no name SSD failed without warning in a year.
So check your SSD makers.
Thick design: 15 inch 4k, backlit full keyboard, replacable big battery, replacable ECC ram, gpu or igpu but no Nvidia(swaywm on nixos), 2 ssds (zfs mirror), ports: rj45, usb-A and usb-c at all sides(left/back/right), hdmi
No need for webcam, fingerprintreader nor touchpad(trackpoint with 3 buttons is king)
And yes, it can be thick/heavy. If I need it light. I'll use a smartphone...
Privacy hardware buttons would be a bonus, as is open firmware.
Who's still using this? I removed the red rubber because it was leaving residue on my screen.
And yes, I have a MacBook M1 (I didn't realize how poor the support was for Linux by the time the return window closed).
I really like sibling comment's comparison with Keyboard shortcuts. Keyboard shortcuts don't make mouse or touch screen wrong or bad; some of us just prefer them and find them more efficient and effective.
Using trackpad disrupts my flow whereas trackpoint is embedded on the home row. Further, I am much faster and more precise on trackpoint. I have never on any machine achieved easy effortless pixel-perfect precision on a trackpad, and have never found a way to quickly in a single motion repeatedly reach the extreme buttons/locations I want to. Now, I'm a trackpad newbie, but watching other trackpad proponents use their laptop has only confirmed my feeling. It looks easy but slow.
This is not to say there aren't people out there who use trackpad quickly and efficiently; I very much assume there are, plenty! I just have not witnessed them.
My feeling therefore, possibly incorrect, is that trackpad and trackpoint fulfill different purposes: Trackpoint is a high-learning curve, high-skill ceiling option that is ultimately more efficient for some. Trackpad has FAR lower learning curve and is much easier to start using, and is right choice for majority of casual users or those who don't prioritize input efficiency - but it feels like it plateaus earlier, or at least those in my group of family / friends / co-workers plateau with it far sooner.
I used to love the track point - it felt so efficient to have my pointing device right on the home row of the keyboard.
Eventually I realised it was the cause of some pretty bad RSI (or something) in my index finger. Now I have to remove the plastic cap to stop myself from using it.
However I have to say that none of the ThinkPad trackpoints match the easiness and the precision of the Tex Shinobi external keyboard - it's just delightful how it feels, though, typing on it is very loud.
After all, there is really no reason that anyone using Paint in Windows would ever type Alt+F and then A when they want to do a Save As...
Right? Sure, it worked for the last 30 years. But come on, who ever would type Alt+F and A? It has to be less than 1% of all the Windows users out there. And our telemetry proves it!
If you have a billion Windows users, and you rewrite Paint - as Microsoft did in Windows 11 - so it no longer knows the keyboard shortcuts that 1% of your users rely on, no big deal. You've only inconvenienced ten million of your users.
Or you hit Alt+F4 on Paint and you have an unsaved image. There is a nice dialog that asks "Do you want to save your work?" And there is a really common case where you were just using Paint as a scratchpad and you would like to type Alt+N here to say "no worries, I was just fooling around."
This dialog used to read "Yes | No | Cancel". And Alt+N let you say "No".
In later days, the dialog changed to "Yes | Don't save | Cancel". But with a clever trick, Microsoft made the "n" in "Don't save" the shortcut key. So even with the updated and much more clear wording, your Alt+N still worked!
Until Windows 11, where this code was all rewritten by people who never knew that anyone ever used these keyboard shortcuts.
The TrackPoint may be something like this. Those of us who insist on it may be small in number. But if it is ever removed, then the one reason why we will only buy ThinkPads is gone. We may as well get a Dell or an HP or a Mac M1 or whatever.
I think it is literally impossible to exit the program without a mouse, after you did something that requires saving.
Lately I've been thinking of finally upgrading Windows 11 since they keep pushing untimely prompts to do so more and more frequently, but reading this makes me glad I've hold off. If they still have major bugs like that, I'll wait another year or two before considering it again.
You could buy Dell or HP with trackpoint already years ago. Not sure the current state, but trackpoint is not ThinkPad exclusive feature.
No, it was a good-faith question of who finds it useful (for what type of work) these days. I think it's a fair question since every other manufacturer has settled on trackpads. As context, I added that I, personally, find it ruins my screen on an otherwise good laptop.
Why the rant about keyboard shortcuts? The only answer you gave to my question was essentially, "over my dead body." No explanation that would help me understand you.
(if we want to start a parallel religious war, let's talk about 3.5mm on phones too! :> )
>> every other manufacturer has settled on trackpads
Note that at various points, until very recently, Dell, HP, Toshiba etc all had power-user oriented models with pointing sticks. If they've gotten rid of them in the last year or two, that is indeed a sad news for many of us - it was never a "either/or" proposition. There's already Apple and many knock-off for those who prefer it; I hope that a laptop for power-users still has a profitable niche :-/
What should I have done differently to make it appear as a true effort to understand?
1. Original question: "Who's still using this?" is direct and to the point; I grok it. But note that some people in many contexts may interpret it... aggressive. Human mind fills in detail in blunt / short sentences. Politeness in some cases is filling in those blanks pre-emptively. Uncharitable reading of your question would fill in the blanks in "Who's still using this?" as "WHO is still using this?" expanded to "WHO is still using this???" expanded to "WHO is stupid enough to still be using this???". They/We would be wrong, but be cognizant of good and bad interpretations of writing.
But that's very minor and extremely audience specific. Bigger point:
2. Charitable reading. This is such a hard thing to do for all of us, especially on the interwebs, especially when there's even a minor difference opinion. I thoroughly, genuinely, believe that the keyboard-shortcut poster provided best possible explanation and tried very heard to type it up and come up with meaningful analogy. I will totally steal it! :) When you read it / interpreted it as a rant / over-my-dead-body, I in turn did not feel you gave them a charitable reading, which subconsciously meant I did not give you a charitable reading either.
So what I think would've made it appear as a true effort to understand, would've been... making a true effort to understand - reading the keyboard shortcut post with a mindset of "what information can I gleam from this / what can I learn / which insight can I take from this". Which, FWIW, is an approach that I think is phenomenally useful in life, I'm actively working on myself, and am successful some small percentage of time :D
(again, not claiming some useful insight, but since you asked, my 100 Croatian Lipa :). All the best!
Re-read the post. The original conclusion was:
> The TrackPoint may be something like this. Those of us who insist on it may be small in number. But if it is ever removed, then the one reason why we will only buy ThinkPads is gone. We may as well get a Dell or an HP or a Mac M1 or whatever.
It says nothing of who "those of us" are (the explicit question) other than a cyclical "those who use TrackPoints." And it doesn't at all answer why (the implicit question.)
So I genuinely couldn't find any information related to my question. Since the (long) text was about keyboard rather than pointing device, it also felt very... out of scope. Hence my conclusion: classifying it as a related rant. Granted, I could have just ignored it. Not sure why I replied, TBH.
I guess you're telling me to not gatekeep and try to keep replies on track. Instead, go with the flow. Fair enough. ;)
I think a few posts went on to eventually answer factually what we love about trackpoint - keeping hands on home row, preciseness, speed, high skill ceiling, etc.
But I also think the keyboard shortcut analogy, while indeed not talking about TrackPoint itself, is actually the most useful post for the goal of understanding it: One may never agree about usefulness of TrackPoint, but that analogy helps with understanding that "There's a small minority of power users for whom this is a force multiplier and who feel very strongly about the optimization it allows them" :)
I recently read a ThinkPad review where the author said something like "Why does Lenovo insist in keeping this stupid red nubbin when nobody uses it?" In other words, "I don't use it, so I can't imagine that anyone else would."
I misinterpreted your question as being in that same vein.
Others have given some more direct answers, but let me add mine. As a touch typist, the TrackPoint is the only pointing device that is directly available with my fingers on the home row.
With a touchpad, and especially with a mouse, you have to be in "typing mode" or "pointing and clicking mode". You can't intermix the two modes seamlessly, as you can with the TrackPoint.
Another advantage is the presence of physical mouse buttons. Some other laptops do have these, but they seem to have fallen out of favor to allow a bigger touchpad. The physical buttons let you position the mouse pointer and then click without any chance of the pointer drifting a few pixels while you click.
I also really appreciate your followup question, "What should I have done differently to make it appear as a true effort to understand?"
My suggestion there would perhaps be along these lines: "I don't use the TrackPoint and in fact I removed the cap because it was leaving marks on my screen. But I'm curious to hear from those who use it. What do you like about it?"
In any case, thank you for stimulating an interesting discussion!
p.s. Regarding the screen, I think some of the older ThinkPads may have been more susceptible to this. I also wonder if the screen marking may be due to putting the ThinkPad in a backpack where other objects put pressure in the middle of the lid. I generally carry two ThinkPads in my backpack, my personal and work machines, and I pack them with the tops facing each other and a cotton dishtowel in between. I need a towel anyway to clean the screens and my eyeglasses, and putting the towel between the two tops prevents them from scratching each other. This way the bases of the machines are facing out, and these are much more robust than the lids.
I do use the mouse buttons on occasion. I can't actually remember the last time I used the trackpoint. I did in some cases, but the annoyance over the dirty screen became too much and it had to go. ;)
Re. lid pressure, that will certainly make it worse, but the T460s I use at home rarely goes outdoors, so I don't think that's the cause. I see dirt build-up on the screen even now that the trackpoint is below the keys, so there's probably finger oils rubbing off the keys as well. Oh, and maybe using the rubber a lot will flatten it so rubbing is less of a problem.
> My suggestion there would perhaps be along these lines
Thanks. I still find it amusing that politness and humbleness is not the implied default, but something that needs to be made explicit every time. I should have taken the time to write something longer. :\ Next time.
I agree with everything you say; note though that power-user oriented versions of HP & Dell laptops do come with the nub, or at least they did until recently (I've used both a Dell & HP with a nub as recently a ~18 months ago; it's possible in the ever-growing Applefication of the world [shudder], they've been discontinued). I think even some Toshibas have it - generally it'd be in whatever the brands consider their "Road-warrior" models :-> . You see a LOT more of them used on the airplanes of business corridors (e.g. Toronto-Ottawa-Montreal) than anywhere else :).
Ah, thanks. I have the opposite reaction. It's too stiff, so my finger tip gets tired after a while. The friction against the pad is also tiring, but not as badly.
Much easier to move the cursor "half a screen" while typing without moving hands off the keyboard.
Especially in small format computers - it actually really bothers me that we are sacrificing keyboard quality, size, and standardized layout, for this gigantic yet inefficient ever-growing trackpad (and thus killing the home/end/pgup/pgdwn section, arrows, functional row, etc), when the nub has minimal foot print and would allow full keyboard and practical design even on smallest laptops.
But it's all about different approaches. If able, I will always prefer an ergonomic keyboard, ergonomic mouse, large mousepad, and a couple of large monitors when working. My wife on the other hand will happily use 13" laptop with trackpad in awful position on the couch for hours! We have different priorities and preferences and will never persuade each other :->
I have to say, both machines are terrible. X1 is pretty slow (some 4c i7 with basic iGPU) - running dual 4k displays, webex and similar apps is pretty slow, even scrolling websites is not smooth quite often. Also, fan never turns off and battery life is well, not great.
P15 is just ridiculous for it's MSRP, touchpad is shit, battery life is shit, CPU sometimes gets stuck at ~400Mhz just because (x1 also has this problem actually) and after googling it seems to be common issue with lenovo hardware (WTF)
Also, why they they included 2 thunderbolt ports and 1 usb-c where not one of them supports charging is beyong me, having to use this stupid lenovo psu every time is PITA)