I don't understand how anyone could oppose this.
I don't understand how anyone could oppose this.
Largely it comes with the idea that use = cost, and that infrastructure has limited capacity and is therefore zeroish sum. For example, a common idea is that we should tax trucks more than other cars because they cause a large amount of damage to our roads. Following that logic, the companies that encourage users to consume more bandwidth should be charged a price for that since they're the ones making money on it, and we don't want to raise costs on users.
see for example https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10645577
Also, does the ISP who wrote that linked article, Hetzner, still support net neutrality? I can't find anything else in English about it since the linked article from 2015 (archive [1], and new link [2]), but maybe that's because other content hasn't been translated.
> Hetzner Online stands for high-performance and high capacity Internet. In the last few years, our network infrastructure has expanded little by little in order to provide our customers with optimal performance. Currently, about two-thirds of our network traffic is directly exchanged with cost-neutral peerings of various partners. Among them are privat peerings with large network operators.
> For this reason, we have been increasingly concerned with DSL and cable providers who have no open peering policy themselves but are also not connected to other Tier-1 carriers with sufficient capacities. During the peak traffic period of 7 pm to 10 pm in particular, the concerned DSL and cable providers hit their capacity limits and thereby impede the fluent data stream between individual networks. This has lead to increasing complaints from the providers' customers because the customers cannot access their servers with the level of performance that they are used to having from Hetzner Online.
> These customers already paid for comprehensive and quick access to the Internet with their monthly DSL and cable fees. However, providers are no longer satisfied with just this source of profit. They now also want to collect revenue by charging large content providers fees for access to their network. For this reason, interfaces are being operated at their highest capacity -- to make paid access to the DSL and cable providers' networks attractive for content providers. The end consumer is then forced to pay double for unlimited access to the Internet. We at Hetzner Online do not support such policies and declare our support for full net neutrality.
[1] https://web.archive.org/web/20150906025055/http://wiki.hetzn... (archive b/c the OP link is no longer accessible)
[2] https://www.hetzner.com/presse-berichte/2015/01/156830 (article appears to have been amended)
They do, but had to relent on holding Telekom accountable because customers threatened to leave as their end-customers from Telekom complained that the services were not reachable or low-performant.
In the end, IMO it's safe to say that Telekom abused their customers to bully Hetzner into paying.
After years and years of appalling DSL speeds (think < 5 Mbits/s) and no alternative except Vodafone LTE @ 50 euros/month for 10 GB of data, the (local?) government came up with subsidies for the first provider bringing glass-fiber to local towns. Ha! At once, they were all rushing to lay down fibers..
But, the subsidies were only for connections up to the local relays, not for bring glass fiber to the local customers. So once the scramble to the relays was finished, nothing else was done.
Two years down the line, slowly, you can start paying (1500 euros) for a connection to your door that should come in the coming months. And the breath-taking connection speed of 100 Mbits symmetric. Which, granted, is a good improvement for casual browsing, but not quite good enough for businesses.
> But given the state of the market, I don't know a _single_ ISP or customer that would confuse DIA for regular bandwidth.
You brought up DIA. I didn't see anyone else comment on it.
I mean, How could they? I'm an IT professional, read a fair bit, and know a random smattering of networking terms from MPLS to T1 to DSL to SMTP to FTP, setup my own VLANs and Access Points at home, but I didn't know what "DIA" is. Saying that "ISP customer would not confuse DIA for regular bandwidth" seems like an incongruous sentence.
>>And the fine print for most ISPs explains what "unlimited bandwidth" generally means.
Be that as it may be, I pay some amount of money for some amount of service, whether spelled out clearly or heinously. I agree that narrative "Netflix is pushing data onto poor helpless ISPs" is disingenuous at best, and double-dipping by any definition.
IMO the solution has to come from the FTC. The US has neglected to regulate telecoms in the name of innovation for a long time, but now so much of everyday life happens atop telecom companies that I think it's imperative they regulate properly. This includes term sheets showing exactly what internet service is being offered and maybe just doing away with the term "unlimited internet" altogether.
The conscientious way to do it is to determine what qualifies as a "reasonable" amount of consumption, then provide that level of consumption at a subsidized rate to all participants, then let market forces kick in if someone consumes more than that. Then the rub is to define "reasonable", which obviously the infrastructure providers shouldn't be allowed to do.
There's no denying that the internet is essential communications infrastructure. And in this era of videoconferencing and work-from-home, the network should be built out such that everyone can stream good-enough-quality video at peak hours without congestion; that seems reasonable to me. The government should also guarantee the availability of this minimum level of service to all citizens. If the network can't handle that, then the infrastructure providers need to build it out. Of course, they will drag their feet and complain, but that's because companies are self-serving sociopathic AIs.
Except the "bad actors" are the ISP's customer. It's they who are asking for the bits to be sent. It's the ISP job to deliver the bits their customers requested.
The streaming services are not dumping bits on to the network like a chemical plant polluting a river. The streaming services are sending bits that the ISP's customers requested.
The streaming services are paying for their Internet connection, and ISP's customers are paying for their Internet connection, and it is the job of the ISP to connect the two.
If you can't currently handle the traffic:
* reduce the service that you offer, or
* build a better network.
The ISPs need to do their damn job.
"Extreme" here meaning ... the connection bandwidth that was explicitly paid for? Except for the fine print where the ISP notified the customer that they were going to horribly oversubscribe things. It amounts to fraud as far as I'm concerned.
The ISP either has to reduce their service speed or charge more.
Again, I don't agree with what the ISP is doing, but I can rationalize how they think it makes sense.
It only makes sense if they perceive no backlash for overreaching.
We need to look closely at what they are currently doing. They're expanding zero rating on mobile, and also on broadband in some areas by claiming that their network is "proprietary technology" and not subject to such net neutrality laws.
Meanwhile, municipalities are prevented from building their own networks to compete with regional broadband monopolies. It's internet-highway robbery.
But you're conflating different ISPs with different types of anti-competitive behavior. Prioritizing non-streaming-service (e.g. throttling Netflix at prime time) packets could, for example, help a regional ISP stay competitive. That's different than the anti-competitive behavior the big ISPs engage in when they lobby governments/help pass laws which _block_ ISP competition in regions like Denver. Different issues with different effects.
This was Ajit Pai's argument. That we should regulate nothing until there's a problem. There are two problems with it,
(1) It's already a problem. There have been documented examples of ISPs throttling, favoring their own partnered content. Also they are actively expanding or seeking to expand zero rating which is anti-competitive.
(2) At the point you actually have a barren landscape in which competitors cannot grow, you've already sucked in a slew of investors on the idea that these monopolies' business models are sound. If the government steps in at that point, they risk being seen as the bad guy for destroying all that investment, which can have political consequences.
We can avoid all that by acknowledging the existing problems, and encouraging competition among ISPs. There should be very few people advocating for monopolies, and we outnumber them.
> Prioritizing non-streaming-service (e.g. throttling Netflix at prime time) packets could, for example, help a regional ISP stay competitive.
That only helps Netflix and that ISP maintain their grip. It's only competitive if by competitive you mean stomping out any new ISP or content provider that is unable to make such agreements.
It’s why even in Silicon Valley in 2022 we’re paying Comcast and can’t get Google or even Verizon FTTH.
No. There are lots of things companies could theoretically do to be more competitive. That doesn't mean those things are good or should be legal.
> That's different than the anti-competitive behavior the big ISPs engage in when ...
Actually I think the two are tightly coupled. There's a Hetzner article linked to elsewhere in this comment section that does a good job of articulating it. https://web.archive.org/web/20170607120440/https://wiki.hetz...
> With a cost-neutral peering, each network operator pays for the expansion of its own network itself. Likewise, every network operator shall bear the costs of its own router interfaces at the connections between the networks (peering points).
> Large content providers have a strong interest to reach the DSL customers of DPCs with the best possible performance, and therefore are looking for alternatives to congested interfaces between the carriers. These are found usually through direct connections of the major content suppliers to the respective DPCs. At this point, the DPC can use their market position, since as a result of congested interfaces no other carrier can reach the DSL customers of the respective DPCs with sufficient speed. Therefore, the DPC can set prices, free of competition, which interested content providers have to pay to achieve performant connctions to "its" DSL customers.
So effectively ISPs are incentivized to neglect peerings that they aren't currently double dipping on in order to use their customers to coerce payment. Note that (unfortunately) DTAG was eventually successful in coercing Hetzner to pay for peering with them. They did this by abusing their customers. It's textbook monopolistic behavior.
They would disconnect the net at every border imaginable and charge for access along every gateway. It's an authoritarian's wet dream to have such control, and we the people should oppose it at every turn.
Setting up a framework that cements existing monopolies isn't capitalist, it's anti-competitive.
I think it's the reverse: the idea is that your server in Romania keeps getting a low-priority until you send each ISP (Comcast, AT&T, etc) a cheque every month.
They don't need to send you a bill, they only need to wait for your money.
We already have massive media conglomerates which have consolidated even more in the last decade.
In order to maintain a competitive space, a neutral internet must be maintained. Otherwise you're cementing the position of those who own the content and means to provide it.
The issue is not use it’s prioritization. That’s the danger.
Netflix pays to prioritize their traffic over Discovery+ or your video streaming startup. Now when it’s busy and the pipe is fully consumed, Netflix is perfect and your company is dropping frames and buffering.
It's true that it'd be bad for Discovery+ to pay for prioritizing their traffic over yours, and I'm very sympathetic to net neutrality on those grounds, but opponents would point out (as far as I can tell correctly) that ISPs have never really tried to build such a program. Throttling and traffic fees rarely come up except at the scale where the actual components of the underlying infrastructure matter.
Legislators let the ISPs get away with it and it’s why we have such high prices for such trash service compared to other first-world countries.
There's no growth left selling bandwidth. So they need to get growth by being anti-consumer.
To hide the scam, they want to prevent your computer from running any software that would need the whole 3TB.
Not quite as bad as ISPs, but the storage industry isn't great either...
It's not clear what this means. I guess in the context it means everyone pays the same unit rate per amount of data transferred?
I think there's more subtlety than this. I pay more for a 100MBit connection than a 10MBit connection, and also pay more for the data transferred over those connections? Are they allowed to charge higher speed customers a lower unit rate?
1. the destination customer can pay themselves into a tier such as "never drop" 2. the source customer cannot
That is, retain "money is power" for individuals but add a veneer of social respectability by denying Netflix etc. to just buy up the bandwidth.
Absolutely not. That practice should literally be illegal.
> or do they have to drop them randomly?
Yes. This is the only reasonable approach.
> And can you pay to be in a “never drop my packets” group?
No. That should be illegal to offer.
If the ISP's network is incapable of meeting their customer's demands during peak hours and they oversubscribed themselves so badly that they're contemplating such tactics then they ran their business dishonestly. They fraudulently made promises that they were incapable of delivering on and got caught. They need to fix their network or go out of business. And possibly should face legal consequences for their behavior.
Why not ? From an engineering point of view, with a scarce resource, dropping only the biggest user (Netflix) looks reasonable.
Obviously, it should be illegal to ask money to do not have them dropped.
The decision of who is the biggest user needs to be made in realtime at the point of congestion, not identified on a quarterly basis by the accounting department and pushed out as policy across the whole network.
> Absolutely not. That practice should literally be illegal.
This is correct for selection based on the remote endpoint. OTOH, it's very reasonable to drop packets selectively based on the local endpoint, so that packet loss affects customers who are actually using 90-100% of advertised bandwidth (eg for streaming), but not those using <10% for stuff like checking their email. (Arguably, local-selection should be required, to prevent the ISP from making anti-net-neutrality FUD along the lines of "my neighbor's Netflix is making my email not work" actually true.)
Because settlement-free peering was a foundational piece of the internet until ISPs decided to ruin it: https://www.inap.com/blog/despite-comcast-netflix-deal-settl...
I'm not against net neutrality myself, just trying to add a bit of background behind why certain folks may oppose it.
It all went away when Netflix started installing CDN caches.
And it wasn’t just level3, it was L3, Akamai, and Limelight: https://www.businessinsider.com/akamai-to-lose-netflix-as-a-...
generally when businesses have a cost they charge extra to cover that. Or theoretically they may be making enough money that they could have less profit for a year to improve service.
>the ISP is specifically choosing to drop Netflix packets at a higher rate than other packets.
yeah, and then they are saying we would like to be able to offer a service where we don't drop packets of particular customers if they pay us money. So the 'nice packets you got there, shame if anything were to happen to them' business model.
Allowing them to do that creates an non-level playing field, which disadvantages the smaller sources that many users would be very interested to view.
Look at YT and the hiding dislikes. That was all about establishment players being very widely and publicly disliked for poor quality information, outright lies in some cases.
How did people know?
Thos smaller sources able to get a lot of attention.
The minute ISP's get to prioritize, they get to create near infinite artificial value by making endless deals about who gets what and when.
Nobody but the ISP'S and establishment support that garbage.
There is no value added to anyone, except the ISP's and establishment.
And the users also pay for the bandwidth to download. Exactly how many more times do the ISPs need to get paid?
It seems like if Netflix were unable to upload the video to their customers, that would be pretty detrimental to their business.
* ISP = Government * Client = Driver * Netflix = Ford * Shows = Truck * Bandwidth = Roads
The Government (ISP) taxes the Driver (Client) when they buy a Truck (watch shows) because that act puts stress on the Roads (Bandwidth). They do not put a special tax on Ford (Netflix) for simply offering a Truck (show) for sale.
So if the ISP wants to get extra revenue from this they need to charge the client more as they use more bandwidth.
The entire industry is built on free peering unless traffic is very asymmetric for the most part.
This is analogous to converting existing lanes to express lanes on highways, people are not going to pay if there is no congestion. The city makes more money removing a lane from regular use and also not investing further on road expansion / alternative routes.
Net neutrality asks the internet to work how road taxes work. You pay for a certain bandwidth (a truck) and you can transport whatever goods you want with that. It doesn't matter if you go to walmart 5 times a week or split your trips to costco, walmart and target. Or maybe whole foods has a deal with the state that makes the people driving trucks to them exempt from the additional fee.
I'm a proponent of weakening net neutrality for when lives are at stake, but that's hardly ever the case on the internet. The problem is that most non-neutral treatment is the result of business interests rather than the greater good.
How is that not similar to ISPs throttling?
Not that I care much either way. I care more about localities and states encouraging or enforcing monopolies.
The toll road doesn’t forbid trucks or cars painted red just because traffic on the toll road is heavy. Paying for the size of your vehicle isn’t like throttling; it’s like paying different amounts for different bandwidths.
It’d only be similar to throttling if the toll roads charged different amounts based on the contents of the vehicles.
> 3103. (a) Nothing in this title supersedes any obligation or authorization a fixed or mobile Internet service provider may have to address the needs of emergency communications or law enforcement, public safety, or national security authorities, consistent with or as permitted by applicable law, or limits the provider’s ability to do so.
[0] https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billNavClient.xhtml...
Cloud providers already bill network traffic at extremely high prices. The cheap ones oversubscribe their connections, according to the motto "you get what you pay for". The current system is "use = cost".
>For example, a common idea is that we should tax trucks more than other cars because they cause a large amount of damage to our roads.
And this is exactly why we should have net neutrality. If there is net neutrality on roads then we can just tax by axle weight. If there is no net neutrality then road companies would come up with a weird classification system that is completely independent of axle weight. For example. S-Pedelecs in Germany are just unthrottled electric bicycles that go faster than 25km/h. They are basically classified as a moped even though they are much lighter. Road companies would then charge S-Pedelecs more because of what they are classified as instead of how much they weigh. Truck companies will then try to develop trucks that aren't classified as trucks to avoid those higher fees (VPNs).
> Following that logic, the companies that encourage users to consume more bandwidth should be charged a price for that since they're the ones making money on it, and we don't want to raise costs on users.
That makes no sense. Just charge all commercial internet connections by traffic or capacity (oversubscribing does not count). You are so far away from "use = cost" that it's not even funny. The amount of brain twisting that is going on here is insane.
This is not 'Net Neutrality'.
If data providers like Netflix want 'special service' then they can pay for it.
'Net Neutrality' is more like Carriers cannot charge more for email, than for games, than for messaging, than for something else.
Carriers should be able to charge whatever they want for whatever QoS (Quality of Service).
If Netflix wants more bandwidth with lower latency, fine, they can pay for that.
But Carriers cannot arbitrary charge 'more' to Netflix because they are 'richer' or because of the type of content.
Federal legislation needs to go further and separate content form data networks.
AT&T has a vast Content Empire that is in direct competition with Netflix, this is a gigantic conflict of interest.
AT&T can sell bytes of data at a quality of service. That's it. Maybe phones - so long as those phones can work on any network and other phones work on it's network.
Content? No way.
Same with cable distributors.
And more difficult to articulate but Apple shouldn't be able to compete with those in the App Store, for example and by law be very 'neutral' there as well: they have to treat everyone the same.
Why should Netflix pay for this? They aren't the one choosing to send traffic onto that network, the ISPs CLIENTS are. The ISP shouldn't have any ability to charge Netflix for actions their clients are taking - and they should have to treat all traffic that a client asks for equally.
Can you imagine an electric company trying to get some sort of fee from Samsung because they sell a lot of electronics that people use in their houses...
They can pay for better QoS, which will result in better QoS for their customers if they want.
Or their customers can, or both.
"Can you imagine an electric company trying to get some sort of fee from Samsung because they sell a lot of electronics that people use in their houses..."
That analogy doesn't work because Samsung, in that case, has nothing to do with the data flow. Netflix obviously does.
Netflix should not have to pay special fees because they are 'Netflix' or 'it's video' or 'it's movies' - but they should definitely have to pay fees relevant to QoS of their upload bandwidth. Just like you, I and everyone else.
Please, stop using QoS as a synonym for explicit prioritization. QoS strategies have advanced greatly since the 1990s, and the goal of providing better quality of service should not be used to defend obsolete non-neutral techniques. Net neutrality and QoS are not conflicting goals, and enforcing net neutrality is an excellent way to incentivize ISPs to transition to better QoS strategies.
If your mental model of QoS treats packet scheduling as a zero-sum game and views latency and bandwidth as inversely related (implied by one of your other comments in this thread), then you're more than a decade out of date. Business models based on such wrong ideas do not deserve any protection from public policy.
Yes, Netfix pays their ISP. They should never need to pay the customer's ISP. Peering should be cost neutral. ISPs shouldn't be allowed to double dip.
But they shouldn't have to pay 'just because'.
Netflix, the Debian mirror, my neighbor and I are all paying for our connections. If we saturate the agreed-upon bandwidth then the ISP's could offer to sell more bandwidth. If we don't, then it's up to the ISP's to fulfill their part of the bargain.
Imagine if Office 365 started charging email senders for storage, not recipients people were using all the storage they pay for, but because Microsoft oversold their product and didn't want to invest in new storage servers.
Item 1) 'nor reason to charge extra for Netflix'.
Of course there is a reason: QoS. You neighbour might want a low-latency, high bandwidth service that doesn't worry about packet loss. You might want a service which is better for downloads: no worries about latency, medium speed, no packet loss.
Different prices for different services.
Also - Netflix may choose to subsidize their service i.e. you don't even need an ISP bill with Netflix - it comes with the package.
2) Netflix, Debian, you and your neighbour are all paying different kinds of bills for different kinds of things. If Netflix's deal is that they get massive fast service until a certain threshold, after which their service is degraded ... when then users will see that degradation at their end.
What cannot happen is ISPs arbitrarily charging Netflix more for no reason, or charging for different kinds of content.
Everyone pays for a 'pipe' with different characteristics, ideally without price discrimination (i.e. if you want the same pipe as Netflix then you pay the same prices ass them), and that's that.
Also, kinda obviously, government emergency services (911, weather alerts, etc) being zero-rated just make sense.
I don't want zero rating to let FB subsidize plans that allow free access to FB. I think we can find some uses that avoid dystopia.
But then why even bother with the paperwork to get approved to be a part of the program? Why doesn't T-Mo just ignore usage below some average throughput speed for any traffic?
On top of that, anyone hosting content who wants to be zero-rated has to make 480p copies of all their video, which may be common practice, but certainly isn't free.
And what about content that isn't video on the first place? There are plenty of mobile games that require several gigabytes of download.
No matter what it is for, zero-reading creates an artificial scarcity.
There are definitely circumstances where it makes sense to give users free access to data, just like how it makes sense that you can call toll free numbers.
The opportunity for abuse is probably large enough to warrant that we can’t have nice things.
Here's an anecdote. Over 10 years ago, I worked for an ISP company in Russia. That was before they went draconian on the 'Net (beyond SORM-2, I mean) - I left around the time Russian government started to mandate blocking websites. Just to clarify - that was an age of rapid growth and users had a choice of ISPs (I had 7 possible to pick from), so providers had competed really seriously.
Which is why net neutrality wasn't a thing - on the contrary, providers were incentivized to set up local FTP servers. Uh, y'know, for warez, though, of course, officially ISPs just "didn't knew" what users were doing there - but that was before streaming services; even Steam was quite a novelty at the time. Those FTPs had faster access speeds (traffic shaping was turned off for their IPs entirely, so up to 100Mbps when 10Mbps connectivity was the norm) and unaccounted traffic. It was mutually beneficial - providers had saved (a lot) on uplink utilization and customers had exchanged content at much faster speeds. In '00s there were even citywide LANs communities, which were torn down only because of malware onset. Those were wild times.
Doing some funky shit like throttling certain traffic meant your users would be gone (people tolerated for a short while, then voted with their wallets). But we had to do this twice. First time it was disaster management, when the first uTP implementation happened. Users had updated their uTorrents and it was buggy and caused very high packet rate (and this is UDP we're talking about), so our edge routers started to choke on this UDP BitTorrent traffic. We had to identify those packets and push a rule that dropped them entirely. Second time was also about BitTorrent - in an university dorm, where we contracted to set up WiFi coverage - I don't remember the details but we had really struggled ensuring fair bandwidth distribution, as someone torrenting made network barely usable for others (because of radio interference, not bandwidth limitations), but we had to tune it down to make it work somehow.
Another story from those times. We had started to receive tons of complaints that YouTube was performing poorly. We've spent days trying to figure out what the heck was wrong there, and realized the problem was only manifested through one of the upstream providers. They had no clue either, so the temporary solution was to push a a bunch of excessive AS-PATH elements in BGP announce to deprioritize routing YouTube traffic from that direction, then wait until someone upstream figures it all out.
And yet another story is that we ran analytics (anonymized, we only looked at very coarse AS level traffic distribution) to understand where we talked to most and if we should peer with someone else to improve connectivity in those directions.
And, of course, we had blocked ports, such as tcp/25 or tcp/445. Would've been a disaster if we wouldn't have.
The morale of this is that as an ISP sometimes you have to violate neutrality in the interest of your customers, to ensure quality of service. Well, to think of it - QoS is inherently non-neutral since the whole point of it is to classify traffic and differentiate it. And sometimes it's hard to draw a line on what's fair and what's not. I mean, I questioned some things we did and only justified them as "well, I don't see any other options here to make it work". And I don't condone nor condemn those examples - just present them as an anecdote to say that there are always some nuances and sometimes things aren't exactly black and white.
Though when people speak about NN in the US they talk about shitty anti-customer moves like throttling Netflix trying to squeeze some money out of this.
Theoretically it should make access cheaper by allowing ISPs oversubscribe networks while still guaranteeing performance to certain customers but, in practice, I find it highly unlikely that savings would ever get passed on to the customer (instead converted into "shareholder value")
My understanding is most of these policies have always been targeted at the large streaming services that are putting the most burden on the networks and who often already have special interconnect agreements.
The claims that these policies would be aimed at small businesses seem largely to have not been realistic.
The whole situation with lying about what you’re ad spend is getting you seems like a much bigger small internet business issue.
"large streaming services that are putting the most burden on the networks"?
That is completely non-sensical. It is not streaming services that are creating a burden, it is the ISP's customers. The ISP's customers are asking for the bits. They are using their Internet service / connection to get what they want (video). Is HN 'causing' the traffic to flow over my ISP's pipes when I reply to comments, or is it me (the ISP customer) when I click on "reply"?
The streaming services are not dumping bits on to the network like a chemical plant polluting a river. The streaming services are sending bits that the ISP's customers requested.
If the ISPs can't deliver the traffic that their customers want then they need to architect their network to handle it.
ISPs are selling access to the Internet, streaming service are on the Internet, and so ISPs need provide it or stop advertising that they're providing Internet access.
The streaming services are paying for their Internet connection, and ISP's customers are paying for their Internet connection, and it is the job of the ISP to connect the two.
If the new investment was paid in part by Netflix and others like them, as they drive most of the increase in bandwidth, then the cost would be pushed to Netflix customers through Netflix.
Either way, end consumers pay what is needed to upgrade the network, otherwise the network is congested or the ISP goes out of business.
I would argue that ISPs should not have these massive profits, if they do then they are overcharging their customers. And the fix for that is to have actual competition, consumers must have multiple choices, which for the most part the US does not have in the ISP market as you have no sharing of last mile access and block municipal infrastructure at many levels.
I know how over-subscription works.
But tough shit. As an ISP customer I'm paying for $x/month for x bps. I've cut a cheque now provide me with what you advertised.
> If the new investment was paid in part by Netflix and others like them, as they drive most of the increase in bandwidth, then the cost would be pushed to Netflix customers through Netflix.
The streaming services are paying for their Internet connection, and ISP's customers are paying for their Internet connection, and it is the job of the ISP to connect the two.
Netflix and others for sure do not pay a lot for their Internet connection, they do not really have one in this context. Most of the traffic comes from their CDN nodes, these are place directly inside ISPs own network (a server with multiple 10Gbit connections), they do not pay the ISPs a lot for this as its also a large benefit for the ISP since otherwise this traffic would come over peering instead and would have to travel further as CDN nodes can be geographically distributed.
The TCO of the ISPs network investments and operation is paid by their end customers, the current low cost is only possible if their network is oversubscribed.
All these things are simply solved by having a competitive market, countries that have that pay much less in Internet subscription costs. Competition is enabled by municipal networks (the ones here do not offer their own Internet service, they put down fiber when other stuff needs to be put in the ground, then let ISPs connect to their network), or by forcing ISPs to share last mile connections to other ISPs.
The ISP either has to reduce their service speed or charge more.
How long until Comcast advertises its proprietary Comcast Network?
AOL / CompuServe here we come (again). Walled gardens for everyone.
When this arose, it was partly a lever to make their own offerings more attractive.
Turns out they mostly sucked at those offerings and have shut down or spun them off so it's less urgent right now, but don't assume it won't happen again!
Easy. If you operate a cell network, your bandwidth is extremely limited, so when it's congested, you throttle streaming video content so everything else is still fast. The same problems affect wired ISPs, but it's easier to run more fiber (often from a local office, not to homes) than to get more spectrum, install more towers, or create the next generation of wireless broadband.
The easiest, absurd case of cell networks falling over is at music festivals. They just don't have the bandwidth to handle thousands of people in a small area.
For example, there can be a lot of "lawful traffic" that is harmful to a network. T-Mobile's T&C say that these things are disallowed: "Uses applications which are designed for unattended use, automatic data feeds, automated machine-to-machine connections, or applications that are used in a way that degrades network capacity or functionality", "Uses applications which automatically consume unreasonable amounts of available network capacity". I'm sure someone here is going to "but fetching RSS automatically..." but I'm going to ignore those straw-man objections. If someone is doing something that harms the network and the enjoyment of other users, it does seem reasonable to restrict that.
Likewise, many ISPs deprioritize data if a user has hit a certain threshold of usage. It isn't throttling, but they give priority to users who don't use as much data given the shared nature of the connection. That seems reasonable to me. It allows heavy users to use as much data as they want while light users aren't impacted by their heavy usage.
Many mobile ISPs throttle types of content like video. That's certainly controversial, but has become common.
> It also prohibits requiring fees from websites or online services to deliver or prioritize their traffic to consumers
This always makes me wonder if that means that ISPs must deliver free transit. Most people aren't really aware of how money is paid to transmit things over the internet. For example, let's say that I want to transmit a video to a Comcast customer in LA. Can I hand it off to them in NY and say "it's your problem now since you can't charge me to deliver the traffic"? Or do I have to get it within a certain distance of the customer and pay for the transit myself? If Comcast won't advertise BGP routes non-locally if someone isn't wiling to pay them transit, is that a violation?
I know a lot of people say that they just want a "dumb pipe", but I think that's mostly because many companies are kinda scummy. We've seen ISPs do crappy things. But there is reasonable network management. For example, I've had friends who have worked at universities where 1% of the users end up consuming 50-75% of the bandwidth. They've done things like put BitTorrent traffic at a lower priority. They don't block it, but they do manage it so that the shared network works well for everyone. If a lab starts using a crazy amount of bandwidth, they don't want everyone else's usage to suffer. It's quite reasonable to manage traffic in good faith - and I think a lot of the no-management/dumb-pipe stuff comes from the fact that we've had some scummy ISPs.
This is true, but that's how politics works. ISPs abused their position and lost the public's trust so now there's going to be an overreaction in the opposite direction.
...1% of the users end up consuming 50-75% of the bandwidth...
The correct and neutral solution to this is per-customer fair queueing. (It's not my problem that there isn't any equipment to implement that.)
He is full of funny ideas which are silly. Often including long debunked ideas on race, gender, class, etc.
Yes, he was born rich. How did you know?