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> To those condemning Yandex for the war in Ukraine

Think about western oil companies and several wars in the middle east. Those companies actually lobbied for conflict in some cases.

> the US government forbade the reporting of military personnel coffins returning from the war zone, and news sources complied

And there a democracy died. (again)

> What doesn't happen everywhere and every time is a rogue nation attacking their neighbors and killing civilians using laughable pretexts while the real goal is to take control of a very resourceful and industrialized area (Donbas) to be used to help the already poor Russian economy.

This is one side of the story. The Ukrainian side. There is another side to that, in which the pro-Russian part of the Ukrainian population was silenced. Before Maidan 2014 the biggest party was pro-Russian (30%) and after Maidan they were forbidden to exist. The people of the Donbas have been terrorized by Ukrainian military. Ukrainians who have nazi training camps for children (there is a whole documentary about them from The Guardian on YT).

> The enemy is the Russian government and the rich oligarchy behind it

Same with the Iraq wars, Libya, Vietnam, Afganistan and the US. Let call out all oppressors.

But then the Kiev government since 2014 also needs to be called out for the atrocities on the Donbas.

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>There is another side to that, in which the pro-Russian part of the Ukrainian population was silenced.

Fiction. Silenced how? They are in parliament, and until recently Russia-sponsored TV propaganda outlets were on the air throughtout Ukraine.

>Before Maidan 2014 the biggest party was pro-Russian (30%) and after Maidan they were forbidden to exist.

More fiction. Party of Regions existed after Yanukovych fled and merged into another pro-Russia outfit in 2016.

>The people of the Donbas have been terrorized by Ukrainian military.

16 civilians died in Donbas in 2021, that's on both sides. 25 died in 2020. It was a very low-scale war and most people were living in peace.

But goodie goodie, Russia has come to liberate them, and is now murdering thousands with indiscriminate bombings, to say nothing of the mass executions, rapes and so on.

>Ukrainians who have nazi training camps for children (there is a whole documentary about them from The Guardian on YT).

This happens everywhere. I personally know someone in Russia who sent their kids to very sketchy pan-Slavic 'rodnover' far-right camps.

>>>>16 civilians died in Donbas in 2021, that's on both sides. 25 died in 2020. It was a very low-scale war and most people were living in peace.

And how many were bombed by their own government 2014-2019? I get the impression they are still pissed about that.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/ukraine-airstrike-kills-11-dem...

Everyone with an interest in this conflict should be searching on DuckDuckGo with their date range set to 2021 at the latest. Western persectives on Zelensky (-2021), perspectives on the conflict in the east (2014-2016), or the really good stuff is Western experts warning about the risks of NATO expansion (set your date range 2000-2010).

The article itself mentions that both sides blame each other without taking accountability. The story of Donetsk and Luhansk is littered with influence by FSB operatives as well pro-Russian ukrainian politics back in 2014.

The statement above with civilian deaths being in low double digits in 2021 is correct as the conflict has reached the status quo which had a good chance of being resolved politically.

Whatever our stance on the reason behind the conflict in Eastern Ukraine is, we seem to agree that it was pretty bad in 2014-2019 and it has been relatively low-key in 2019(Zelenskiy got elected) and on. Any civilian deaths are terrible, but to put things in perspective: more people Died in car accidents in DNR/LNR then due to the conflict.

So any reasoning of Russia attacking Ukraine, flattening cities, destroying civilian buildings as being caused by a conflict in DNR/LNR is pure Russian propaganda.

"more people Died in car accidents in DNR/LNR then due to the conflict."

Traffic related deaths should not be underestimated, they are more common than people think. In fact, so far more civilians have died in car accidents in Ukraine (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_traffic-r...) than in the conflict (using statistics by the UN https://news.un.org/en/story/2022/03/1115042).

Although I personally don't understand the point of this argument. If "only" 40 people die then it's somehow ok but if 1000 die then military action is suddenly justifiable?

>I get the impression they are still pissed about that.

Well, that makes not a lick of sense. A war took place 8 years ago, mostly died down, people lived in relative peace, and now Russia starts a war of aggression on a whole new scale, rains death from the air, unleashes its troops to commit mass murder, takes thousands of civilian lives because "they are still pissed about that"?

And pissed about what? Its own actions? Russia instigated a war in 2014 by creating a proxy army out of thin air (and funding, arming and manning it with its own soldiers), then just straight up invaded in August of 2014 with its own regular forces. They routinely bombed civilian areas without any regard for the civilians still in them, used civilians as human shields, positioned MRLS launchers inside apartment blocks, etc.

I don't know what happened in the airstrike you brought up, except to say that by July 2014 Ukrainian air force wasn't used much due to Russians bringing in their SAM systems, such as the Buk that shot down MH-17 just two days after this article. Especially in 2014, Ukrainian army was a rag-tag outfit using Soviet-era tactics, and they did occasionally hit civilian areas in situations when a more modern army would be able to avoid it. There were instances where you can say they tactics did not sufficiently account for civilians. There were many more instances where Russia proxies used civilians as shields with success, however, and the Ukrainian military showed restraint.

Either way, at the end of the day the blame for wars of aggression has to lie with the aggressor, not the victim that's defending itself. This was true in 2014, and it's sure as fuck true in 2022.

Not even gonna get into that whole "NATO expansion" clusterfuck. If you think a fascist dictatorship should have veto powers over which defensive alliances its democratic neighbours voluntarily choose to join, there's not much there left to discuss.

> Not even gonna get into that whole "NATO expansion" clusterfuck. If you think a fascist dictatorship should have veto powers over which defensive alliances its democratic neighbours voluntarily choose to join, there's not much there left to discuss.

Russia now a "fascist dictatorship"? Hmm...

What about a western democracy (US) that claims "veto powers over which defensive alliances its" neighour (Cuba) has? But than it is different, right, when it is Nato, and it has scared it's population shitless for "the communists". Then it is allowed to invade... Yeah right.

To me Russia invading Ukraine is like US invading Cuba: you could see it coming from miles ahead. The big bad agressor's "security needs".

While I disagree with the trade blockade, I don't think there's any equivalence here. We don't know what Cuba wants any more than we know what Belarus or North Korea wants. We can approximately equate the country with the people in terms of 'wants' and actions only if the country is actually ran by its people, democratically. Cuba is controlled by a totalitarian regime, and its people cannot decide on which defensive alliances to join because the Cuban government doesn't ask them.

>To me Russia invading Ukraine is like US invading Cuba: you could see it coming from miles ahead. The big bad agressor's "security needs".

Except the US did not invade Cuba, did not bomb thousands of civilians into ashes, did not murder every male citizen of a small town before retreating from it, etc.

Hey, come to think of it, you know who did that last part in Cuba? The Cuban dictatorship. Thousands of political prisoners have been murdered since 1959. I wonder if anyone polled them on which defensive alliance Cuba ought to join before putting a bullet into their head.

You can't say "fiction" to anything just because you don't like it. There is always a another side, always, but you just say "fiction".

I really liked your comment:

>This happens everywhere. I personally know someone in Russia who sent their kids to very sketchy pan-Slavic 'rodnover' far-right camps.

I'm looking forward to you showing where in Russia children were taught to kill Russians and yell "Москаляку на гиляку" (hang up the Russians)

It is not so much the presence of nationalists that is important (as you said "This happens everywhere"), but the attitude of the country towards them (Nazis Germany doesn't happen everywhere).

> You can't say "fiction" to anything just because you don't like it.

No. It's fiction, because it's not true and completely fabricated. I mean... for years I was told by Russian TV that I am persecuted and discriminated in Lithuania - I'm ethnically Russian from Lithuania. Which is complete BS. They told me that Lithuanians were Nazi collaborators and all resistance to Soviet occupation was just Nazis. Which is a blatant lie.

So when I say that nothing that Russian propaganda says is true - I actually mean that not a single word is to be een remotely trusted.

> I'm looking forward to you showing where in Russia children were taught to kill Russians and yell "Москаляку на гиляку" (hang up the Russians)

In Lithuania we had a whole scandal, of a Russian school sending kids to a summer camp in Russia. Where they were trained to use guns and taught that Soviet Union was great and Lithuanians are Nazis.

Also - Москаляку на гиляку - doesn't translate "hang", it's Send the Russian(singular) to the guillotine.

>It is not so much the presence of nationalists that is important (as you said "This happens everywhere"), but the attitude of the country towards them (Nazis Germany doesn't happen everywhere).

The attitude in Ukraine towards Nazism is bad. I mean... Nationalists didn't even get 2% in the last elections, not to mention complete lack of Nazis.

>You can't say "fiction" to anything just because you don't like it. There is always a another side, always, but you just say "fiction".

That is, of course, incorrect, but very telling. Willing victims of Russian propaganda use this line all the time. In fact, very often there is no other side, because facts exist.

>I'm looking forward to you showing where in Russia children were taught to kill Russians and yell "Москаляку на гиляку" (hang up the Russians)

You're (pretend-) surprised that a country suffering from an invasion teaches its children to hate and wish to harm the invaders? If you think that's bad, I got news for you, champ. It is now officially quite legal to put an invading moskalyaka onto that tree branch right now, or take them out in more modern ways. Ukrainians are allowed to fight against the occupying force using any means necessary, and they do. Not only is there nothing wrong with killing an invader who attacks your home and murders your neighbours, it is a noble and just thing to do.

>It is not so much the presence of nationalists that is important (as you said "This happens everywhere"), but the attitude of the country towards them (Nazis Germany doesn't happen everywhere).

Nazi Germany and Zigist Russia indeed doesn't happen everywhere, only in places where the ruling despot becomes a deluded fascist, drunk on his own power and trying to pass his own ignorant mis-understanding of history as reality.

If you are not surprised that "a country teaches its children to hate and wish to harm the invaders" years before the invasion then don't be surprised when the invasion actually happens.

I can't imagine the level of your ignorance about how receptive children are and what monsters will ultimately grow as a result of such training.

what about "Москаляку на гиляку", i'm sorry, but I'm very far from a clear understanding of this kind of statements, while you seem to demonstrate a high level of awareness.

The invasion started in 2014, so not sure what you mean by 'years before the invasion'. And I'm not surprised in the slightest that the invasion actually happened. I have relatives in Russia and I understand how widespread fascism is there among the common people. Putin is quite moderate by comparison.

>I can't imagine the level of your ignorance about how receptive children are and what monsters will ultimately grow as a result of such training.

These children will grow up as people who understand that being willing to kill invaders and aggressors is a prerequisite for freedom.

>what about "Москаляку на гиляку", i'm sorry, but I'm very far from a clear understanding of this kind of statements, while you seem to demonstrate a high level of awareness.

It's an archaic phrase that simply means invaders from Russia ought to be strung up. No one really uses it these days, a much more relevant 21st century equivalent is "пали русню в танчиках". They're rather heavy and burn well, so why strain your back, you know?

Помню как 24 февраля я был в шоке от того, что началась бессмысленная и кровопролитная спецоперация. Зачем? Для чего? Помню, как подписывался под призывами прекратить вторжение, вписался во все петиции, которые нашёл, хотел было на митинги выходить, не спал ночами и смотрел новости. Потом внутри начало всё устаканиваться, в конце концов, я не первый год наблюдал за тем, что происходило на Донбассе.

Теперь же благодаря таким, как ты, я отлично понимаю, что всё сделано правильно, и дальше откладывать было просто нельзя. С вами мир построишь, с мыслями о том, как вы будете москалей вешать и сжигать в танках, ага. Соседей, как ты пишешь, на деревьях вешать, это что в голове надо иметь?

Было, было уже такое, великая германия, арии, очистить землю! Гнали до Берлина.

Your supposed month-long personal journey from being anti-war toward being an enthusiastic supporter of Russian fascism and war crimes is about as believable (and as boring) as your demented fuhrer's history lessons.

It shouldn't have to be spelled out, but of course the best way to ensure "neighbours" don't get burnt inside tanks or strung up on Ukrainian trees is for them to stay the fuck away from Ukrainian trees, and to keep their tanks well clear of Ukraine.

So tired of this Kremlin propaganda everywhere and Western people actually believing it. We were force fed this bullshit everyday on Russian TV and Yandex News. Please resist it while we in Russia couldn't.

compelling counter-argument

> after Maidan they were forbidden to exist.

not back then, but they banned them in March during the war.

> Kiev government since 2014 also needs to be called out for the atrocities on the Donbas

1. Donbas separatists (backed by Russia + actual Russian forces) started the conflict. 2. Why didn't Russia just clear out Donbas/Luhansk republics instead of the whole of Ukraine?

I hope you live in Russia, it's perfect for you.

> 1. Donbas separatists (backed by Russia + actual Russian forces) started the conflict.

Before or after the pro-Russian political party was forbidden? Let's assume people in Donbas voted that a lot, would seperatism be such a weird thing for them?

2. Why didn't Russia just clear out Donbas/Luhansk republics instead of the whole of Ukraine?

I dont know the Russian military's strategy decisions. But I think we can all agree the focus of this war is on the Donbas. The approach to Kiev seems to have been a diversion. Some expect a major push to Kiev in the coming weeks; some expect the peace deal (the Russian demands been pretty clear from the start) to be signed right before Kiev gets taken.

Again pro Russian party was forbidden when Russia attacked.

Do you think having a potential traitor party during war is good?

Where there many pro German parties during WW2 in countries that it attacked?

Please tell me how was Czeczen separatists treated in Russia? If Russia is so for separations of other nations let their own republics do the same.

> Do you think having a potential traitor party during war is good?

If the biggest party before Maidan (30%) is forbidden as a "traitor party", can it be really called as such? Or was Ukraine before Maidan openly pro-Russian, and was the Kiev regime the traitors?

> Please tell me how was Czeczen separatists treated in Russia?

I cannot agree more. Not always separatists are allowed to separate. Even Spain had a episode of that recently.

Though, the pro-Russian crowd in Ukraine feels somewhat Russian, and Russia is sympathetic to them. If the Czeczens were entically chinese, their faith may also've been different.

I just checked and Party of Regions was never forbidden, many people just left it and joined other parties (e.g. party of the 2014 elected president Poroszenko)

BTW. If your president runs to another country and that country comes back with and army, what do you do? Oh, and before that that same president begs that other country to invade and bring peace. (and prime minister also fleds to that invading country, just before the invasion). Even Party of Regions removed Yanukovych from his members.

For westerners: in Ukraine one could have a special "note" that allowed voting in any "voting office" - this should be used only in special cases when you are not sure where you will be during the voting (normally you are assigned to vote in your home region). As one might guess it was used to do some shenanigans, like a bunch of miners from eastern parts where being driven to many votes with those special notes. No one checked if given person voted once, or ten times. And there were many buses with such people.

And Russia really cares about Russophiles, they made two regions separate from Georgia in 2008, and they did the same in Ukraine in 2014. Coincidentally it was at the time both of those countries started taking a Western turn (speaking about EU and NATO membership).

You can shove your opinion and discussion up your ass. I hope my country goes to war if need be (we were notified back in March before it became apparent Ukraine is more than capable of holding the fascists off lol). Death is preferable to being Russia's bitch. Fuck that country and everything it stands for.

That's russian propaganda.

-> Russian - speaking Ukrainians want to join RF

-> Symmetry in action between Ukraine and Russia (we do bad things, but they do them too)

-> Ukrainians are nazis

These are all theses fabricated by Kremlin.

>>> Ukrainians are nazis

>>These are all theses fabricated by Kremlin.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-cohen-ukraine-commentary-...

https://thehill.com/policy/defense/380483-congress-bans-arms...

https://geohistory.today/azov-movement-ukraine/

http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2014/7/24/ukraine-azov... Here's a choice quote from this article: “Ukraine should be for Ukrainians,” Lemko said. “We don’t need the European idea of multicultural extremism here. Ukraine must protect its cultural and ethnic integrity.”

I'm sure Mr Lemko from Canada was actually a double agent planted by Putin... /sarc

I dont think anyone is denying that there were fringe nationalist groups in Ukraine, just like nobody can deny that there are fringe nationalist groups in US(Remember "Jews wont replace us" chanting blokes in 2020) or fringe nationalist groups in Russia(See the video of Rogozin, who leads Russia's space agency, participating in Moscow' nationalist meeting: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUItOUKQ-zc ).

A fringe group that has 0 political power does not make "Ukrainian are nazis" any more true than when its spewed by Russian propaganda machine

>>>A fringe group that has 0 political power does not make "Ukrainian are nazis" any more true

Read Bellingcat's coverage of the problem from 2019: https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2019/11/11/ukr...

Azov members have close access to major Ukrainian politicians, including Arsen Avakov, the (now-former) Interior Minister.

https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/odr/rise-of-azov/

I agree that inviting representatives of right-wing groups to a meeting with Zelensky on veterans affairs is a political mistake.

That does not negate the fact that these right-wing organizations, including "Right Sector" had negligible popular support and won exactly 0 seats in Verhovna Rada.

Again a very poor reason to invade a neighboring country

Azov is not what you think it is.

It is like complaining that a general has access to any Ministry.

I am fully aware of ukrainian nationalists. During II world war and after Ukrainian Insurgent Army has committed genocide on polish civilians killing 50 - 60 thousand.

But you need to distinguish. If refugees are knocking to my door I won't say: "You are Nazis". If Ukraine is defending against invasion, I will advocate for sending weapons. And so on.

>>>But you need to distinguish. If refugees are knocking to my door I won't say: "You are Nazis". If Ukraine is defending against invasion, I will advocate for sending weapons. And so on.

Sure, but there is a big gulf between "Ukrainian Nazis are Kremlin misinformation" and "We recognize some of your people are morally questionable but still desire to arm/equip you in the justified defense of your homeland."

We used to be much more honest with ourselves when we were getting in bed with useful bastards (Werner von Braun running our space program and Eric von Manstein "advising" the post-war Bundeswehr are two of my favorites). Messaging has devolved into a very simplistic good/bad binary model when reality is much more grey.

The funny and somewhat ironic thing is that neo-Nazis (like RNE or Barkashov's movement or Dugin) are thriving in Russia if they collaborate with Kremlin.

They also enjoy widespread financial support by companies associated with Kremlin all over the world especially if they are viable candidates on European elections.

This is the main reason to not take Putin's "Nazi" label seriously. If they support him they are "patriots". If they don't they are Nazi.

>>>This is the main reason to not take Putin's "Nazi" label seriously. If they support him they are "patriots". If they don't they are Nazi.

Very true. The leader of Wagner, Russia's infamous private military contractor, has SS lightning bolts tatooed on his neck. If it weren't for innocent civilians dying, it would easily be a war where we shouldn't care which variety of asshole loses.

https://www.respublica.lt/signs-of-neo-nazi-ideology-amongst...

None of these actually address the statements above.

You're trying to derail this, by providing links that aren't in direct contradiction to the statements.

Having any more nuanced position regarding world affairs than "our guys: good. their guys: bad" is bad guy propaganda.

This is an amazing twisting of facts and rewriting of history. Propaganda at its best.

>This is an amazing twisting of facts and rewriting of history.

That basically sums up Russia in 2022. Pure unadulterated fascism borne out of delusions of grandeur and rewriting of history, its own and that of its neighbours.

well that settles it then. thanks for clearing that up

What's the point of this comment? You don't have to like or support the US or deny its atrocities to observe the atrocities currently being committed in Ukraine.

> Ukrainians who have nazi training camps for children (there is a whole documentary about them from The Guardian on YT).

I think it would behoove you to actually link to this. It's hard to tell from context whether you're claiming that the Ukrainian government is engaging in neo-Nazi education (this would be extraordinary) or whether some neo-Nazis in Ukraine are doing so (this would be upsetting, but not particularly surprising for Eastern Europe in general).

It's a bit of both really, the far-right extremists helped the Maidan regime change, so the paramilitary made themselves at home inside the governement and in many areas in this country ( remember, that's a large country, divided and diverse ). Now ? I really don't know, but if you happen to see any report before February 2022 you could have your questions answered easily. Without them, the revolution wouldn't be successful. Reports dating back to 2014-2015 clearly show children being educated in a strange manner, when it was kind of allowed to say the complicated truth inside this nation.

The Guardian video is here: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jiBXmbkwiSw

The paramilitary group which organized the camp was officially integrated into the Ukrainian National Guard. One of its members recently joined Zelensky in addressing the Greek parliament: https://greekreporter.com/2022/04/07/greek-azov-fighter-zele...

Openly Ukrainian nazi youth training camp video, by the Guardian (western MSM), in 2017, easy to find on YT. And organizer also has ties to Kiev gov't. Story unfolding... But down voted :)

> What's the point of this comment?

The west is so quick to condemn Russia, where the west has been warring all over the place with less good reasons to invaded that Russia. Keep in mind that: there are many Russians is Ukra, Russians were marginalized in Ukra especially since 2014, Russia is next to Ukra (unlike the middle east to say the US) so they have reasons to protect their safety, Ukra got Crimea during USSR times from Russia, and Putin made clear demands of what is needed for the war to be over (not part of any block, accept Crimea is Russia, Donbas gains autonomy).

This is a much more understandable invasion to me than Iraq 1+2, Libya, Syria, Afganistan and Vietnam.

> I think it would behoove you to actually link to this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jiBXmbkwiSw

> It's hard to tell from context whether you're claiming that the Ukrainian government is engaging in neo-Nazi education (this would be extraordinary) or whether some neo-Nazis in Ukraine are doing so (this would be upsetting, but not particularly surprising for Eastern Europe in general).

The second. But no crackdown from the central gov't (while it breaks international law) and you see links with the openly nazi Azov battalion everywhere in the training camp.

Are you calling Ukraine Ukra? I cant tell if you are trying to save bandwidth or sound demeaning to the country and its people.

These so-called safety reasons are Russian propaganda lies as there was 0 reasons for a nuclear-armed Russia to be afraid of Ukrainian military attacking its territories.

Remember, Ukrainian politics have a lifespan of 4 years, so they have to fight to stay in the office. For Russian, their czar is forever, so his illusions of grandeur are lifelong.

A Russian invasion of Ukraine is more understandable than "Iraq 1", https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_War , which was Iraq invading Kuwait and the US freeing Kuwait from Iraqi invasion, scud missiles, and tanks?

Of course that's more "understandable" to you, because the rest of your history is equally misinformed and backwards.

Correction - what is happening is not an "invasion", it's war. War, plain and simple.

The first step to fixing a problem is naming it. And Russians can't even do that.

Point by point. 1. The same politicians who were in party of regions (Yanukovich party) quickly reorganized into new political parties. So there were “pro-Russian” political parties in Ukrainian politics, who participated in parliament elections in 2014 and in 2019, and in presidential elections in 2014 and 2019. So the point that people in Eastern Ukraine were marginalized politically is a lie.

2. Ukrainian forces in 2014-2015 attacked armed forces of separatists and Russian troops, civilians never were the target. More than a million people left separatist republics for Ukraine, why would they do that if they were terrorized?

3. There are training camps for youth in Ukraine, which are funded by political organizations. They are not “Nazi”, similar things exist in Russia as well - like Yunarmiya for example.

Ah good old "but they lynch African Americans in USA" distraction. Russian TV loves it.

BTW today is day 55 of the war in Ukraine. 55 days it's not about "sides of the story" it is about Russians bombing and killing Ukrainians. And then denying that.

Stop the war. Then we can talk.

Absolutely incredible whataboutism, your restatement of Russian propaganda needs some work though, you should focus more on Azov maybe.

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