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I agree. I'm a little disappointed really to read so many people talk about kids becoming social pariah and how they're just going to teach kids how to use social networks responsibly.

My older did not get a cellphone till 9th grade, that too because the kid used to walk to school. I use pi-hole at home and the kid has never used FB, Instagram, Tiktok. Unfortunately kids use Discord for communicating, so had to allow that, but we had a discussion about the language to use on such platforms and so on. And, so far I believe the kid is fine since I didn't teach them to just use the social platforms responsibly, rather I taught them (I hope) to not use the social platforms at all except for messaging when absolutely necessary. Moreover I try to tell the kid to use browser as much as possible rather than get the apps.

And, for the record I don't use FB, IG, or any other platforms myself - so we lead by example.

So, far I have not heard much protest. What happens when the kid will be in college is anyone's guess. But I personally believe that teaching kids a mistrust of social networks is inherently better than trying to teach them how to use them responsibly, since I don't believe they can be used responsibly.

EDIT: to add, my kid uses DDG instead of Google for search. Does use Gmail, but also has own domain with custom emails. PS5 and Switch, but no network play. Changed password immediately when was forced to use Gmail on a public school computer once.. So, I guess we're just teaching kids different things.

So we are pretty similar. We don't use social media, either. We feel that it is silly to be like, don't get on this, if we are also on it. Our kids still have tv, switch, etc etc, but I make sure that I don't allow anything into the house that is inherently made to trick them into spending infinite time on, which is becoming harder and harder to do. For example, when we were kids, games had a beginning and then an end. That isn't always the case now, lots of games have infinite updates and more and more to do, so I am careful to explain that hey, you are playing this game a lot because it always has more task for you to do, are you enjoying just completing these virtual tasks everyday? Are you gaining anything from it, I understand you are relaxing from your day at school, but how long are you going to spend on this mindless thing? Then he will usually look at me and agree that he probably has been on too long and will end what he is doing and go find enjoyment elsewhere with something that isn't designed to be addictive and the perfect challenge dopamine hit.

> I have a son who is 11. All of his friends have smart phones. He will have friends over to the house and the friends will sit there and stare at their phones. My son who doesn't have a phone will be like, hey can you get off tiktok so we can play or go outside?

I have a daughter who is 10. She and most of her friends have a smart phone. She is friends with a neighbor girl who is home schooled. When they hang out, the home schooled girl who has extremely limited access to electronics just wants to sit inside and watch shows and play games while my daughter wants to go outside and play. In fact, when she's hanging out with any of her friends none of them are glued to their phones. Anecdotes are fun!

My son has access to all the other great things like tv, streaming, video games etc. I think going all one way or all the other is of course no good also. It is about a nice mix, right?

It's interesting to think that right now, at your son's age, most people have friends that are dictated by their classrooms and just the people forced to be around them from 9-3 every day.

I noticed as I finished high school and post secondary school, my friends became people who I actually wanted to hang out with. I had complete freedom to find others to socialize with that were more similar to me.

I guess my question is, how much of an impact does not having a smartphone when you're a teenager have when you reach adulthood? Based on what you've described with your son, it seems like he's benefitting more from not having one.

I don't know, and I won't know until later I guess if it is a major mistake or not. He knows that if he wants to go to hang out with friends he can just get their parents number and I will call them and be like hey can our boys hang out, I will come get your kid etc.

The one thing I do know is that there isn't much good left in social media besides a few edge cases where its a resourceful group that hasn't moved off the platforms. I don't use social media anymore. We had to lead by example, so my wife and I both removed it from our lives. We are better off for sure without it.

It is an infinite time suck, and while that might be fine for adults who are grounded in their work life and need an outlet to just relax. Children have so much room to learn, explore and develop that it isn't a healthy eco-system for them to be on for hours and hours a day.

> I have a son who is 11. All of his friends have smart phones.

My child is also 11. Fortunately none of the friends or anyone in class has a smartphone yet.

I think this is somewhat easier here, in Silicon Valley. Most of the parents are either directly in tech or in very adjacent fields so we experience how the sausage is made and want no part of it. So parents are pretty aligned on no social media and minimal tech. I don't use a smartphone myself, so helps in leading by example. (I have one, but mostly it sits in my work backpack and I hardly ever take it out.)

Most of them have laptops, although only very recently. So they can research (DDG, never google) topics for school and personal interest but it's not something they have nearby most of the time.

So luckily they still get together and do the same things I was doing at 11, ride bikes everywhere and play in the park, forest and beach. Weekends we go camping in areas with minimal to no cell signals (also wonderful for parents, impossible to check jira tickets when there is no signal!). I'm sure it'll get more difficult in middle school and beyond, time will tell.

> One time my son said, hey get off your phone and lets go scooter around the neighborhood, the kid replied, hey I think I am going to go home. He wanted to surf his phone more than actually hang out with his friend

That is so sad. Interesting to see that china has 'LOCKED' down screen time controls for their youth, but they 'strategically' let tiktok run unfettered in other countries

Exercise a little caution if you can though, I was the kid without tv in their house and in middle school it resulted in having no friends and I resented my parents for it.

Do you mean because you didn't understand like common things with kids because you had no tv? Or because you were raised like completely different?

Both. In middle school I was ostracized as the weird kid that "doesn't even have a TV." No one wanted to come over to my house.

It mostly went away in high school, but middle school was terrible.

Kids are brutal. Sorry.

It's possible to walk a middle road here. My 11-y.o. daughter has a smartphone, but I use parental controls so she can only use apps for a certain amount of time each day (I chose 1 hr on weekdays, 2 hrs on weekends). This makes it possible for her to engage with her peers online, but also protected from becoming totally addicted.

Yea. This is something I have thought about, but the wife and I have decided to just wait and see how the middle school years go. I imagine it is going to probably become amplified.

It is interesting to think about how we understand social things for our kids.

When I grew up the only social time I had was when I actually hung out with my friends. We didn't have internet until I was around 16ish. The only social aspect we had outside of school was actually hanging with friends or talking on the land line. It's amazing how it is expected now for kids to be able to communicate with their friends 24/7.

I'm not sure if this is good or bad. As a parent I want to be the main influencer in my kids life for a bit longer still I think. I sound so controlling but in reality my son has a ton of freedom and is really a responsible kid for his age.

> Yea. This is something I have thought about, but the wife and I have decided to just wait and see how the middle school years go. I imagine it is going to probably become amplified.

I have a 14 year-old and we have zero blocks on anything. Our logic was that a) kids have far more time to get around restrictions than I have to maintain them, and b) it only takes one friend without such limitations to make any protections moot. I'd much rather see what he's up to and focus on critical interventions than micromanaging everything he's doing.

What we do have is tracking and reporting (he gets the emails, too) and a policy of mom and dad have full access to devices at any time, and the computer is used only with the door open. We've also focused on etiquette, such as putting the phone down when someone is talking to you. Finally, homework, study, and family times are "quiet" times with no devices. We make sure that applies to mom & dad, too.

So far, it has worked well, mostly because we've worked very hard to be consistent with how we apply the rules. We're also very vigilant for any warning signs like obsession, etc. I also talk to him about things he wants to buy for games, etc., including discussing how the games are designed to put you into a loop to buy rewards. Usually I say to defer a couple days and ask if it's really worth it. He pays with his own money and we track purchases. Tracking has helped him really understand how much money _could_ be spent, and made him think hard about whether the purchase was worth it. When questionable behavior occurs, we make it a discussion and not a lecture.

>It's amazing how it is expected now for kids to be able to communicate with their friends 24/7.

>I'm not sure if this is good or bad.

I used to be convinced it was because of my age, but the more I interact with kids, the more I am convinced that I am right. It is bad, with almost no good in return.

The pressure today's children live under is absolutely incredible. They are expected to be available 24/7. EVERY mistake they make could be recorded and shared forever. Literally everything they do is scrutinized, and if it's dorky or funny looking or weird, they absolutely will be bullied for it. . . and can never escape because it's 24/7 now.

The world for children is terrifying.

I totally agree. We used to have so much self time when we were children, playing in our rooms, out in the woods, out on the street looking at random things or just watching people. Now kids can easily be trapped into never ever being alone; what a nightmare. People around me think that I am absolutely crazy for not giving my 11 year old a cell phone, but I can't think of a single valid reason he really needs one right now.

What about the useful aspects of being able to reach/keep tabs on your kid, have it available for them for emergencies, etc? Is it still possible to buy a flip-phone or something for such purposes?

I don't have a child, but I wouldn't mind buying them a Nokia brick once they are around 12 or 13 lol

As a parent I usually know the general where about of my kid like 99% of the time (or at least where to start looking), and if I don't know exactly where he is I know how to contact whoever he is with to find out. Of course this will change as he gets into middle/highschool.

I mean we grew up without phones and our parents+ grew up without phones. I think it will be fine. He knows both of our phone numbers so if he ever needed something he would probably just ask a stranger to borrow their phone to call his parents or something.

I might be the edge case here, but I really like that he has to think about what he is going to do, or where he is going to go with his friends; that he might have to somehow contact me so he has to plan ahead. This is what we did when we were kids, we would have to let our parents know ahead of time where they could find us. It is sort of a responsibility that has kind of faded away with everyone having phones.