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Comment by Draiken | Hacker News Reader

This is always a tough subject for me because everyone seems to have at least an idea of what they want to achieve.

When I was younger I had these silly dreams of moving to another country, getting married, becoming a programmer to make games, have my own company and get rich (haha).

I did become a programmer and got married, but never left the country or became rich. Now on my 30s I know how limited my options are.

I could focus on my craft. But I don't have the same drive as before. I could try to progress my career, but I'm already earning good money and I know to earn more I'd have to either start job hopping or study some leetcode to get into a FAANG. I could try to focus on my hobbies, but you realize very quickly that to get good at anything, you need hundreds/thousands of hours. I could try to start a company, but I know that's extremely hard to do and also requires a shit-ton of luck to work out.

After all that, I realize that I have no real objectives to strive for. Some of the dreams I realized and they weren't that satisfying. Some I discovered were not worth pursuing.

And now what?

In the end, I'm just a blip in the universe and when I'm gone it will be unchanged, the same as if I had never existed. Yet we focus on these artificial goals set by childish dreams, society or life events.

What's the point of it?

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> I could try to focus on my hobbies, but you realize very quickly that to get good at anything, you need hundreds/thousands of hours.

The point of hobbies is not "getting good at them". It's enjoying them for their own sake. Otherwise they turn into ... work.

> I'm just a blip in the universe and when I'm gone it will be unchanged, the same as if I had never existed.

Yes. The Universe doesn't expect or have any special plans for you.

But hey, that is not that bad. Consider the opposite. The Whole universe having a plan for you. The whole infinite Cosmos. Just thinking about you and having a plan for you.

I don't know about you. But it would give me a panic attack.

It's ok that the Universe doesn't have a plan for you. This frees you to assign your life whatever meaning you want - and to change it at any point! You can also feel gratified about fulfilling your self-assigned potential or feel extremely disapointed if you did not. Or, change them again. Some hold that the secret to happiness is having the right expectations about oneself.

> And now what?

Therapy worked for me.

> The point of hobbies is not "getting good at them". It's enjoying them for their own sake. Otherwise they turn into ... work.

For some of us, the point of almost any endeavor in life is to be “good” at them. That isn’t even to say you can’t enjoy it, or you have to feel anxious about whether you’re good enough at it. The point is the go through the process of becoming good at the things you choose to do because we acknowledge that there is something beautiful and admirable about expertise.

Someone who feels dejected — because he can’t see the reason in doing something unless he’s already hit the requisite hours to be ‘good’ at it — probably needs to hear that he needs to unlearn whatever makes him feel bad about being ‘bad’ at the start, instead of hearing that it’s okay to suck at something as long as he enjoys it.

Otherwise, all you’re doing is trading one form of anxiety for another (I must be good at X vs. I must feel good about X), and he’s still going to notice that he sucks at the thing (playing guitar, golfing, whatever) and find difficulty enjoying it from there.

But it _is_ OK to suck at something as long as you enjoy it.

What does "suck" even mean in this context? A composer might still "suck" if they compared themselves to Johann Sebastian Bach, but is that the most important question in the scheme of things?

The one thing we can all become experts at is being ourselves. Nobody in the world, in fact, can do it better. I think it's best to focus on that.

The anxiety you're describing, I think, is endemic in modern society, especially among the professional class. Whether or not we choose to adopt it is up to us.

++ I suck at rollerblading. I look goofy, I can't do any fun tricks, and it's not even practical for commuting. I love it all the same because it feels good and it's a nice quiet activity I can do while listening to music to just decompress.

I disagree on the hobbies I like trying to get to excel on the ones that stick and then suddenly. Once I prove I can do it I relaxed. For example on photography went on the competition cycle and ended with some winners and with one picture on a good museum for awhile.

After that the pressure was off and now I just do dog photo's for instagram from the dog park :)

>The point of hobbies is not "getting good at them". It's enjoying them for their own sake. Otherwise they turn into ... work.

I fall into this pitfall a lot, whether it be working on small personal projects or playing a video game. I think a large part of it comes down to comparing yourself to others.

I took up drawing a year ago and it was completely new to me, as well as the first hobby in a while I went into without caring how well I did. And as a result it was fun and relaxing. A few months ago I started looking at other artists and their work and started comparing my work to theirs. And guess what, I began feeling like drawing was a chore or work.

More and more I am starting to believe the phrase 'Comparison is the thief of all joy'. I try to remind myself of this when I notice that I'm comparing myself to others.

> And now what?

If you haven't already, I highly suggest making a child if you can. It seems to snap all of this into focus - it did for me anyway.

I mean I still have a ton of existential dread and still often wonder what the point is but I do find purpose in providing for my family and trying to raise a human that can do good - maybe better than me and the author of that NYer piece :D.

It's sad that this comment got downvoted. There's hundreds of millions of years of evolution that codifies "you should have children" into our genes, and it's not hard to see that this has something to do with how middle age can feel meaningless if you don't. Just because it's difficult and/or not fashionable to have kids these days, doesn't mean those biological imperatives aren't still there, subtly affecting your thoughts.

I would rather be sad than bring children into this world just for my own selfish reasons. Not to forget the fact that how we are polluting the planet and not doing enough to counter climate change, there's a good chance life is gonna be tougher for upcoming generations.

This line of thinking exterminates itself. It is better to have kids and raise them to actually take care of the world around them, otherwise the sum total of future culture will be shaped by people that don't care about that.

> The point of hobbies is not "getting good at them". It's enjoying them for their own sake. Otherwise they turn into ... work.

Put like this, it is actually mind blowing and betraying the belief of my whole life.

To me, hobbies are activities that you enjoy so much you eventually get good at. My definition of talent is the ability to persistently and consistently improve yourself in a field. This definition includes the ability to efficiently obtain positive dopamine feedback to continue training and effectively curb burnout.

I really wished I can say I am talented, both in my works and my hobbies. But maybe, just maybe. Getting good is not really important after all.

(And about work: Maybe getting good at work and advancing career is also not the point? What is work anyway? Contributing to society in exchange of being let alive? Lol)

> The point of hobbies is not "getting good at them". It's enjoying them for their own sake

I think his point is that being really bad at something is no fun. If my goal is to have fun I would rather do something I will enjoy right away.

You can't have anything without investment not even fun.

Being bad at something can be fun; that’s mindset. Being bad is the first step at being good at it!

> I think his point is that being really bad at something is no fun

Children are terrible at everything but they have a lot of fun anyway. Clearly it is possible, which makes this a mindset issue. Thankfully, that is within your power to change. Start having fun today :)

Children aren’t smart enough to realize how bad they are. Imagine wanting to draw and it comes out like an 8 year old drew it. Embarrassing

It sounds like the idea of “the universe has no plan for you” really didn’t help considering you needed therapy

Looks like you're getting downvoted maybe because of the mean spirit of your comment, but your idea is probably held by many, to which I say:

Therapy can be such a powerful force for self-discovery and mental well-being. To think that believing a given philosophical statement can have the same effect as deep inner work is to completely write off the power of therapy. I would highly recommend it for anyone who has grown up in less-than-ideal social systems (pretty much all of us) and who wants to improve their life.

I think that ship has sailed. Even the word "therapy" has lost all meaning, just like "mental health" and we are all just conditioned to believe that the only way to achieve anything is through group think and therapy.

If you're fucked up, try drugs, (preferably the _legal_ kind, but certain herbs work really well) before you try therapy. Therapy is expensive for a reason; it's 50% a scam.

Your implication that anything expensive is closer to a scam is of course nonsense. An MRI is very expensive, but it is not a scam. An oncologist is expensive, they are not a scam. Therapy is expensive and it is not a scam (because it works for most people, most of the time).

I’ve found that therapy is a bit like minecraft in that the people knocking it have almost certainly never tried it.

Colloquially "therapy" tends to refer to just talk-therapy. It's useful to the extent that talking out your issues with someone is useful, but at $100/h.

There are forms of therapy as interventions that are generally shown to be effective according to research (e.g. CBT and variants), and I think we'd be rid of a lot of confusion by better distinguishing one therapy from another.

You are describing a paid friend. That is indeed vapid and baseless. Therapy is something you seek for meaningful long-term change in an area of your life that you see as an impediment to living. All health care is (or should be) focused on that question: What do you see as a problem. If your therapist just wants to sit down to listen to you vent for an hour and asks for $100 for it, find a new therapist. Preferably one that went to school.

I am describing what it indeed often becomes, but even clients who describe it as such may still care to pay for the privilege. Ethics aside there's no rigorous standardized approach for general psychotherapy. A therapist can draw from any direction.

If seeing a therapist is to be maintained indefinitely, then it's not triggering meaningful long-term change. You can't chalk up a problem of this scale to a matter of education.

> You can't chalk up a problem of this scale to a matter of education.

Why can't I do that? It seems to me that if different countries have much better generalised psychotherapy results, I can absolutely ascribe that difference to education.

you might be right. But AFAIK, Therapy is a mostly USA thing. Most cultures don't do it. You'd probably say they don't because they are not yet enlightened. I think they'd probably have a different pov

>Therapy is a mostly USA thing. Most cultures don't do it.

First off, that's a bold statement that I need something to back it up, unless it's just your opinion.

For the sake of argument, let's say it is true, though. Is the more likely reason that there are different societal pressures, expectations, and outlets inherent in different cultures, causing different mental health outcomes and needs?

> First off, that's a bold statement

Why? It's just a simple statement of (alleged) fact. Like, say, "Shaker furniture isn't really a thing in Australia"; that can be true or false, but WTF is particularly "bold" about it?

> that I need something to back it up,

Why? That assumes everyone having regular therapy is the default and not having it is the weird exception. What's to say it isn't the other way around, so you are the one who needs to back up their statement?

But OK, let me disabuse you of your misconception: The only place I've ever heard of people undergoing years-long regular psychotherapy are pop-cultural references, film and TV... American film and TV. I get my films and TV perhaps mostly from Scandinavia, Germany and Britain, but as I'm sure you know America exerts a huge pop culture pressure in Europe. But in none of that is "I can't on Thursday afternoon, that's when I see my shrink" a cliché like it is in American stuff. (Not to forget, as late as the 1990s that whole trope was used self-ironically in at least one but I think several films by Woody Allen, making fun of his own neuroticism -- because back then it still wasn't the norm in America either.)

Needless to say, I've never come across the phenomenon in real life either, in any of the Northern European countries I more-or-less regularly frequent. You'd think if it was even remotely normal here I'd have come across a remark like "X couldn't join us today because of their regular therapy session" at least once in the last four decades, but I haven't.

> unless it's just your opinion.

It's a claim of fact, provable or disprovable; it literally can't be an "opinion". And, as per the above, all evidence I've ever seen strongly points towards the statement being true.

> For the sake of argument, let's say it is true, though.

Nah, not "for the sake of argument". Let's say it's true because it is.

> Is the more likely reason that there are different societal pressures, expectations, and outlets inherent in different cultures, causing different mental health outcomes and needs?

Yeah, sure. Mainly, AFAICT, because seeing your shrink once or twice a week like you see your barber every few weeks isn't a fashion accessory necessary for your status in the rest of the world like it seems to be for the American (upper?) middle class. Which IMO seems to indicate that the societal pressures, expectations, and outlets inherent in most other cultures are healthier than those of the American one. HTH!

If therapy is mostly a USA thing why does ICD exist as a completely separate diagnostics structure vs DSM? Why are there huge studies and money towards culture specific mental illnesses and phenomenon that doesn’t exist in the USA entirely?

Therapy is what happens in a third place (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_place)

So few moderns have a third place now, that they pay people to take that role.

Are you implying that if someone believes the universe has a plan for them, then they won't need therapy?

I think they were implying that if they are horrified that the universe doesn't have a plan for them that therapy could help relieve them of that pain.

Taking therapy does not mean that the person failed to realize his dreams. Successful and unsuccessful people both might feel the need to therapy at some point in their life.

Show me someone who doesn't need therapy and I'll show you someone who is delusional about the stability of their mental and emotional state.

It's this kind of attitude that turns a lot of us off the field. When I hear an absolutist statement focused on ingroup versus outgroup I feel an immediate revulsion for the memeplex producing it. To be optimistically curious towards something that other people find brings them mental and emotional stability I need to see some acknowledgement that they have not tried and are therefore not qualified to dismiss every alternative.

I don't believe any reputable psychiatrist would claim that everyone needs therapy.

https://www.google.com/search?q=therapy+harmful

This happens to everyone in their 30s. You realize that "dying someday" -- which seemed like a big distant hypothetical when you were a kid -- is actually a thing that will happen on a timescale you can reason about. Your career gets hard and you don't really know the point of it. It takes a while to get over it.

Then you hit your 40s and you realize that since you're going to die anyway, why waste the time and die bored and mediocre? So you start appreciating things and choosing to do stuff that interests you, whatever that is.

YMMV obviously and N=1. But unless you have a terminal disease "I've hit 30 and my life is basically over" is just BS you're telling yourself.

Well into my early 30's now, and can identify a fair bit with this, especially the "dying someday" being an actual time that will happen. Whilst it isn't massively interfering with my life, I do hope some of that dread and sadness stops popping up. It all started during lockdowns so might be to do with feeling like missing things.

One thing that has changed is how things seem more transitory, instead of something being THE thing, it's just the thing here and now, and it will all change before long. Which whilst it always made sense, I never really internalised it.

So is this the famous mid-life crisis everyone talks about? I never assumed this was it because I don't explicitly think about mortality all that much. I don't particularly mind that I'm going to die.

I also haven't bought a Harley or have the will to do anything of the sorts.

Guess I just have to figure out how to come out of it. It's been a slog and right now I don't see the light at the end of the tunnel, hehe.

> So is this the famous mid-life crisis everyone talks about?

It sure sounds like it. Regarding "buying a Harley" I think that can act as a shorthand for "realizing life is short and doing something for yourself now that you have the means and while you can enjoy it", which is a good idea in my opinion.

Oh, life is far too short for a Harley. Buy a Ducati or something. ;)

No seriously though the other reason 35-year-olds buy a motorcycle or convertible or similar pleasure vehicle is that they actually can afford it, unlike new grads just out of school? (I differentiate the pleasure vehicle from the utility vehicle; if you buy a little 125cc motorcycle as a car-alternative for zooming around town that's quite different than the speed machines, or the massive touring motorcycles that get SUV-grade gas mileage.)

Anyway, this is one of the positive parts of middle age — maybe you're not actually rich, but you're usually much better off then you were in your twenties, might have a good start on a home or a retirement, and can afford a few personal luxuries, or children.

In earlier decades, the mid-life crisis years were likely also about the time most parents' kids had either just left the house, or would very soon. If you have a kid at 20, they're (hopefully) leaving at 38....

> If you have a kid at 20, they're (hopefully) leaving at 38....

The "(hopefully)" is interesting! Living in an Arabic country and having many Mediterranean colleagues I recently started to appreciate that different cultures have a very different point of view on when kids should leave their parents house. For them it is perfectly normal to stay with their parents until the age of 25-30, while e.g. in Germany this would be considered quite weird already.

Protagonist: "Life is short, I'll buy a motorcycle"

Narrator: "And his life just got shorter"

Midlife crisis is when you realize that 'midlife crisis' was a lie and there's nothing 'mid' about it, and that you have only 10-20 more years left of denying that you are mortal.

I don't mind dying really and I am in my 40s and haven't accomplished much of what I wanted. However, my life is getting better and better. Better job, better pay, working from home, got a few cats that are amazing for stress and bought a new place for me. As I love to learn new things everyday, life is just getting better and better.

I speak only for myself, but the closest thing I've felt to a 'mid-life crisis' (I'm 48 now) is more of a realization that there are a number of life choices that I can no longer make because they simply aren't available to someone at my stage in life. If I dwell on them, I feel a bit sad. I suspect some people try to grab something that serves as a talisman of those lost opportunities and cling to it for a bit, and this is the manifestation of their mid-life crisis.

>"I've hit 30 and my life is basically over" is just BS you're telling yourself.

I wouldnt categorize my internal struggles this way. Because I have already hit this point (below) despite being in my mid 30's now.

>you realize that since you're going to die anyway, why waste the time and die bored and mediocre?

That said, the struggle I find is its all a sliding scale. That I am butting up against realistic time limits.

That pushing more here (ie: career) means i have to sacrifice something else or re-prioritize a hobby, family, etc. And I have a good equilibrium. So how do i do it while no upsetting that and maintaining the things that keep me grounded and from burning out.

Ultimately i KNOW patience and waiting for the right time is probably the right answer. But life happens, and a buddy of mine, same age and kids and all just passed, and it again will make you reconsider perspective (for me, on several different "planes".)

One thing i have realized is that many that are very successful in a traditional sense, dont always have the best equilibrium and have achieved that at a cost. And I am not sure if thats a cost im willing to risk.

I really need a damn vacation maybe.

I'm in the same boat friend, yet I don't remember buying a ticket.

> I really need a damn vacation maybe.

We should both make this happen. I'm going to plan today not tomorrow.

Definitely have been struggling with stuff along these lines since my late 20s or so. It's been kind of like a revelation-onion, slowly peeling back the layers of expectations from myself and from others and realizing "Hey maybe I don't have to try to keep up with the media that everyone else is watching," and "Oh, if I want I really can pursue <obscure hobby>!" and developing into "You know, maybe this managerial track really isn't for me and focusing on developing into an effective senior IC would be more satisfying" and "Screw it, I'm sick of living in this area with its traffic and its noise; time to see whether my job will support me as full-time remote or find one that will, and find a house in the midwest"

Given this trajectory it seems like there's maybe a risk that I'll end up as a hermit in the woods... but would that be so bad, if I were an extremely fulfilled and satisfied hermit?

My only life's goal is to become a hermit in the woods.

Hopefully by the time I hit 45 I'll have saved enough to retire, uninstall VS Code forever, and enjoy the woods for the rest of my life :)

Best of luck with that! I'm a little too close to 45 for that to be likely to work for me, but in the meantime I am pursuing working arrangements that are more sustainable and fulfilling!

Do it. If quiet introversion is your thing then I think you've got a good plan.

You don't have to be a Manager, and you don't have to be rich. Focus on being happy instead.

Thanks! So far so good, though the packing up to move is taking longer than I'd like ;-)

I was diagnosed with cancer at 30 and the initial prognosis wasn't great. Turns out it wasn't that bad and I easily beat it but it certainly changed my view on life. My 30's have been great. I get a lot of satisfaction from my family, my social life, my work, etc. I've made peace with where my life is at and I feel like I have control (to a degree) on where it's going.

I didn't feel like "It hit N and my life is basically over" until N = ~50

> What's the point of it?

Live for others.

You (and I) are incredibly fortunate. We have our basic needs taken care of. We have more than that. There are many, many, people in the world who have problems that you can help solve. That could be - spending time with a lonely elderly person, volunteering with the homeless, building a website for a charity that can't afford to pay for a great one, building a startup that solves a problem for people... teach someone a skill. It can be anything.

Live to help other people. They need you. If you don't get much out of it - don't worry, they will. So if you're not particularly bothered about what you do, go help them. The world is full of important problems and people that need help, there's a vast number of things to work on that will make a difference to other people.

It's noble, but for me it's once again... pointless.

I don't have the money or power to enact any meaningful change. I can give my time or some money to others, but I'm not really fixing anything. I'm just drying ice.

Maybe I'm not selfless enough? I've never tried anything like that, so that's at least something new. Might give it a try

Is it possible you’re setting your threshold for meaningful change to high?

I have friends that have made it their life’s work to get their city to install more bike lanes. They’ve been pushing for a decade and the city has installed a few lanes in particularly dangerous places. They have likely saved a bikers life.

I have friends that volunteer at a crisis center and all they do is talk with people who need help. They aren’t making big changes but are positively impacting the lives of people around them.

There are so many meaningful ways to improve the world around you that don’t require you to have millions of dollars or to go into politics.

Yeah I think this is a problem with modern life. Our ancestors knew only of their surroundings and their tribe. Helping someone near you was obviously meaningful.

Now the scale that our minds grapple with is infinite: We know we’re a tiny part of an infinite universe, our tribe is billions of people.

My solution is focus. Reduce the scale of your concern to where you can have an impact. You can certainly have an impact on the people around you. If that doesn’t seem worthwhile, try to figure out why the people you’re close to matter so little to you.

> You can certainly have an impact on the people around you. If that doesn’t seem worthwhile, try to figure out why the people you’re close to matter so little to you

That is very well said; I appreciated reading it

> Reduce the scale of your concern to where you can have an impact.

Nice. That’s going in my quote collection.

> that don’t require you to have millions of dollars or to go into politics.

These sound like the same thing to me.

And if you dislike that, you can work on solving that! It doesn't take grand gestures. Start by reducing the level of plutocracy where you work, for example. People will remember what that feels like and bring it over to their political opinions.

Saint Mother Teresa of Calcutta was once asked during an interview how did you manage to help so many people? Her reply was: "I just started with one person".

You don't need to look far to find someone who is hungry; sure many people on this orange site may not be hungry of food but I bet there are many who starved of love. It really doesn't take much to offer an ear to someone in this lonely day and age.

Perhaps it's part of my religious background but I personally find that if the foundation of one's life is based on material things, then one is in a constant state of unhappiness. I come from a country that is considered poor but Western standards, however looking back I realize that the West is wealthy yet poor at the same time. Most are just busy worshiping money, sex, status or power. It's like we forgot about our humanity.

So yes, you may not be able to change _the_ world but you can change _one_ world at a time.

Mother Teresa may not be the best example here.

Could you be more specific as to why? I'm sure you have a crunchy anecdote to share :-)

Mother Theresa has caused a lot of pain and suffering. She would get world class medical treatment, while people would be dying in severe pain in her hospice and she would tell them some bs about suffering making them great.

They also had poor sanitary practices at the hospices and would contract HIV.

She is very much NOT a saint.

https://medium.com/lessons-from-history/the-dark-side-of-mot...

The thought of wealthy westerners sipping coffee and writing about the evils of an old lady is on par.

She basically did the bare minimum, and let people die in her places because suffering would make them see Jesus.

I would be careful about mentioning Mother Teresa to anyone from Indian subcontinent.

Nice comment. I am in my 50's and a sysadmin for a large corporation. I absolutely love helping people when I can. I am gifted so that I can give. When I'm gone it won't be long before I'm completely forgotten. That's the way it is. Anyone who is finding life too bleak would do well to seek professional help.

> When I'm gone it won't be long before I'm completely forgotten.

_Everyone_ will be completely forgotten. I think the obsession with "legacy" is a fools errand. Making a positive impact yo those around you, big or small, _for the sake of it_ is a more reasonable approach, IMO.

Even the most successful person will be forgotten[1] within a few generations.

1. Forgotten as a person, but possibly reduced to a name and a title without knowing eye color or personality.

I think we're the first generations where this won't be true actually. Micro-documenting your life and opinions, where overtly on Twitter, pseudo-anonymously here, or in emails and countless mobile photos and videos will add historical colour we can only dream of for past generations.

> I think we're the first generations where this won't be true actually

The jury is still out, but I wouldn't bet against entropy. Cloud companies do not yet have a clear guidance on what to do with data belonging to deceased users, but if that data is not profitable, it'll likely be deleted[1]. Phones and NAS devices will end up in the attic or landfill: sure programmer-archeologists of the future may encounter some with partially recoverable files, but most of the present day data will be lost.

1. I missed a payment to a SaaS provider by a week (I was traveling) and irrevocably lost data. When the payments stop due to infirmity or death, the data will be deleted.

Existential crisis with a dash of nihilism. I see you have already gained a number suggestions. It ends up being pretty simple for me when I feel this setting in. Focus on what I enjoy and cultivate deep hobbies. Gain new skills. Turn off the content consumption in your life unless it is making you a better person. Stay curious toward the endless wonder that exists on this planet. You can’t fix the world or other people.

I did sell a company and make a lot of money. Does not change much. Did not make me feel successful or somehow complete as a human being.

HN is a poor substitute for seeing a therapist. You are not alone and millions of people feel the way you do from time to time. If this problem feels “bigger” than you, find someone to talk to about it.

I think your definition of "meaningful" might need to be revisited. It seems it was forged from the perspective of a younger self whose understanding of what was likely or even possible was ungrounded.

You've now adjusted somewhat to the new reality but the sense of what would really be valuable is stuck in the past. It's ok to, and even necessary, to adjust your sense of what's valuable and meaningful. Yes, you probably won't make world scale changes, but that doesn't mean the more ordinary things one can do to serve others is meaningless. It's just different meaning.

There's a book, Ordinary by Michael Horton, the first two chapters of which were instrumental in helping me make a transition like this. That book is coming from a Christian worldview so some will object to that perspective. Unfortunately I don't know of anything like it from a secular perspective that I could recommend.

I had a similar feeling of pointlessness. For me I realized that that feeling stemmed from viewing myself as powerless and small in the face of the complexity and chaos of the world. How could I possibly make any meaningful change from where I am?

I came to believe that everyone is in that same boat. Those we look up to as having made "meaningful" change were just the right people in the right place and time and had relatively little control over that destiny. That probably won't be me or you, but it definitely won't happen to someone that starves to death, dies from a preventable illness or is just fighting to survive each day. So, I came to believe that the greatest leverage I have for making change in the world is to remove barriers for as many other people as possible and just increase the pool of people that might be the right person in the right place and time to solve the really big problems we all face.

Furthermore, spreading the idea that helping others is the best way to help the world can leverage a network effect. You might help the person that helps the person that is then able to solve a really big problem.

You might not have the power to change society or the world, as a whole. But you definitely can impact individuals. If you volunteer as a tutor for kids with learning disabilities for instance, I’m pretty sure you’ll make an impact on that individual.

You're focusing too much on the macro and "the universe". You live one life; enjoy it and help others to be able to enjoy theirs too. Yeah, everything is pointless if you view your life through a cosmic lens. Is it pointless for the ant or bee to exist and work for its colony?

I teach kids this, "you might not be able to make the whole world better, but you can make your neighbors life better."

I also heard something like, "everybody wants to help the world, nobody wants to help mom do dishes."

Enjoy the little things and do what you can to make the people around you a little happier. That's the secret to a good life.

> meaningful change

Says who? The tad bit of encouragement you give a younger person could change the entire direction of their life, and you may never hear about it. We don't get to know all the ways we influence others.

Remember to factor in a stint of isolation if you were in any form of lockdown

Don’t forget to give your social batteries a jump start if needed before evaluating long term goals. It’s hard to care when you’ve not had your quota of social interaction filled in a while. Caring about stuff is a positive side effect of ego, and ego needs social interaction for fuel (I might be talking nonsense here biologically, pinch of salt)

Whether this is relevant or not I wish you the best in finding the thing that clicks

Others have said it but I'll say it again. You need to recalibrate what you think of as meaningful change.

Contrary to popular belief, history was never written by great men.

You might associate a few individuals with the great movements of history, but the people you know by name only echoed the popular opinion of their time.

The real wheels of history inch forward when common people influence their neighbours and children to strive for something a little better than the status quo.

Do something. Take the smallest step that is recognisably in the direction you want society to go.

Try posting answers on stackoverflow. Ideally, not the low hanging fruit that takes 5 seconds to solve but the difficult questions most seem to avoid.

> > What's the point of it?

> Live for others.

What’s the point of that? They are a blip in the universe just the same. Adding one level of indirection doesn’t solve the existential problem.

Screw the universe. People need help, and you can give it to them. It might not be "existential", but at least it's real.

Living for yourself is also real. The point is that if one doesn’t feel meaning and purpose in one’s life due to existential awareness, then moving the focus to other people doesn’t help with that.

“If you have come to help me, you are wasting your time. If you have come because your liberation is bound up with mine, then let us work together.“ - Lilla Watson

> If you don't get much out of it - don't worry, they will.

Im very selfish I get nothing out of helping others but I do it anyway and usually it ends up hurting the person I am trying to help, as the help is unwanted or the way I was helping was unwanted. You would think people would just be grateful for you trying but it turns out they are just as focused on themselves as myself.

It seems most people don't really want help they want some one to boss around and they call that help. I have no interest in being some ones lacky for no ones benefit but theirs in the same way no one wants to be my lacky.

Helping people is easy helping people in a way they won't hate you for it is very difficult.

Man come on. This sounds like you've tried to help some people you care about with issues that are down to a lack of discipline (addiction, financial problems, etc), and people resented you for it.

Now you're writing off all charity and volunteerism because of it? Get real. This is just lazy nihilism.

Im not trying to write off all charity and volunteerism, my comment is about myself and the problems I have trying to help others, I simply noticed that how I was trying to help wasn't helping.

For example you'r comment to "Get real" what does that mean? I assume you don't think I am a robot I assume you mean it as genuinely trying to help in the way you might tell an addict to get real or grow up its a platitude telling them to stop doing the thing they know is bad.

A few years ago I would have agreed with you but I have had a realisation about the way I try to help people, does it help them?

Will they stop being addicted? probably not, most likely they have heard it before and will just take offence at being talked down to they will double down on the bad behaviour out of spite.

Does it help me? When I tell people to grow up it boosts my ego makes me feel like I know what I am talking about, like their problems are so easily solved if only they where on my level of understanding.

When I realise that my style of help, helps no one and nothing but my ego is it really help? No it's not, its simply me being arrogant.

When I realise that my style of help is no help at all should I continue to subject people to it? No it's not helpful to do so, I don't need my ego stroked and I don't want to hurt others with my good intentions.

This doesn't mean that I am agains't helping others I simply realised a problem with how I specifically was trying to help others, I was just trying to boost my ego.

I wish I could claim this realisation as my own but in truth it was pointed out to me. If some one pointed out that your idea of help was the same as mine could you accept this realisation or would you become resentful?

I have had many examples in my life where helping friends have made them dependent on it and later take it for granted.

I didn't really set out to help them, either. Just kinda kept saying yes until they expected me to keep saying yes and became 'surprised' if I hesitated when they asked for too much. It was easy for me most of the time, having the freedom of being single and tons of free time.

And these are good people. People I like and am still friends with. Maybe not the most introspective people, but then again probably human nature at work.

My selfish motivation for helping was to be liked or respected more. And it made feel good. I got what I wanted but there is also a cost.

That’s a very pessimistic view. I’m sorry you’ve had such experiences.

Are most of those in the context of your work or also in the context of family, friends and neighbors?

I’ve had mixed reactions with work, but usually good reactions when helping people in my social circle.

> That’s a very pessimistic view. I’m sorry you’ve had such experiences.

It is and I would like to change it tbh but I mostly don't want people to resent me.

I think the issue that cause those bad experiences is specifically I try to help when its not wanted and I find it difficult to figure out when help is actually wanted. Often people will say "Im fine" when they are not and really want some one to show interest and listen to them. Some times they are fine and are tired of every one prying, I just don't have the emotional intelligence to determine between the two.

Its easier (safer) for me to do nothing and wait for some one to explicitly ask me for help which never happens, no one wants to be a burden even tho I would quite welcome the burden.

I recognise this problem is solely a me problem and I would like to improve on this but its difficult to know when to help and when to leave alone. Some one else suggested I "get real" but I don't know what that means or how to do that. I tried touching grass it was wet still no idea how to help people without them explicitly asking.

Thanks for replying I think the differences between helping in work and social is true and something I haven't really considered before perhaps that can help me understand when to help.

The only point of life is whatever you make it. Life's your own video game and you set the rules of what defines winning or losing it. There are definitely lots of external pressure trying to get you to align to what their game is, but I think you've come to realize that those rules aren't the rules you want to live by.

I felt the same way in my 30s. The thing that changed it for me was when my father passed away, my mother was diagnosed with dementia, and the pandemic. I started to realize that life is really short and it made me think a lot about what it all meant. I think you've also come to realize that there really is no point, so you can either be depressed about it and not do anything or you can just do things that bring you enjoyment. Some people find enjoyment in help others and volunteering (I don't) and will say that's the meaning of life. Other's will say finding enjoyment in the process of something is the meaning of life (I don't). I think it's different for everyone and part of life is defining the game. Everyone wants validation that their rules of life are the right rules.

I'm in my late 40s now and I just focus on whatever I want to do that I enjoy - hanging out with friends, spending time with my family, not stressing too much about work, entertaining myself with my hobbies.

On hobbies - I'll pick up hobbies just to try them out now. I have no expectations any longer. If it sticks, it sticks, if it doesn't, I don't care that much. I've come to realize I just really like to try new things, and learning the depth doesn't interest me. If i'm inspired to pick it up again, I do. There's probably some self-help/hustle porn out there that dissuades this, but I enjoy it.

Actually this is correct but something that supports this point is the: Cosmic insignificance therapy - https://tim.blog/2021/12/15/the-liberation-of-cosmic-insigni...

In the end, everything is pointless and it can be either depressing or liberating.

So all you described - just do the things that you feel are enjoyable or meaningful - it doesn't have to be a startup, it can be as much as caring for elderly or even running naked in the forrest, whatever it is.

> Cosmic insignificance therapy

Heh, reminds me of the Total Perspective Vortex.

https://sites.google.com/site/h2g2theguide/Index/t/114333

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wUJuv6qL_HA

I am not being trite:

Thats the point! There is no single point except to exist and from that to try to exist peacefully with your fellow people.

You are right, we are here briefly. No different than a flower blooming for a time. Whats the point to blooming just to die? Thats the point.

As alan watts said... the journey itself is the point.

What you wrote reminded me of this extremely powerful (to me at least) bit by Jim Carrey on the latest The Weeknd album (which is about being in a state purgatory):

  Heaven's for those who let go of regret
  And you have to wait here when you're not all there yet

  And if your broken heart's heavy when you step on the scale
  You'll be lighter than air when they pull back the veil
  Consider the flowers, they don't try to look right
  They just open their petals and turn to the light

Thats great. Thanks for sharing.

"exist peacefully with your fellow people" is great but first try to exist peacefully with yourself.

Truth. Have to love yourself. This takes some work.

What works for me is "accepting myself".

Accepting myself meant accepting the universe. Even the parts I hated. The suffering. I didn't have to love it all, I just had to accept the balance.

This has helped me be at peace. Once I am at peace, I can be creative.

I used to feel a bunch of that same pointlessness, and I still do sometimes, but a novel helped me frame what I was feeling. Stoner (1965), by John Williams. It is not about drug use.

It essentially covers the life of an assistant lit professor born in 1891 that ended up not living up to his expectations in all areas of life and how he handles them internally. It really helped me draw meaning from my life again while I see friends have their money making them money and fly upwards in their careers and build their families.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stoner_(novel)

I would add The Razor's Edge by W. Somerset Maugham to this list as well.

The problem with 'living up to your expectations' is that too often it's about material goods that are unbelievably fleeting and temporary. This book, followed through to the end, really helps focus in on that.

It was given to me by my dissertation chair during post-grad work. He was attempting to point me to the fact that life doesn't have to be hustle and bustle and break-neck for money. I took it to mean that he thought I should quit school and go back to the farm. There's a lesson in there about clear communication, I think.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Razor%27s_Edge

Stoner is one of the best novels I've ever read. He dedicates almost his entire life toward studying literature because he had a passion for it in university, despite never achieving resounding success (not a spoiler, as this is revealed on the first page of the novel).

There are wonderful passages like: “In his extreme youth Stoner had thought of love as an absolute state of being to which, if one were lucky, one might find access; in his maturity he had decided it was the heaven of a false religion, toward which one ought to gaze with an amused disbelief, a gently familiar contempt, and an embarrassed nostalgia. Now in his middle age he began to know that it was neither a state of grace nor an illusion; he saw it as a human act of becoming, a condition that was invented and modified moment by moment and day by day, by the will and the intelligence and the heart.”"

It changed my view on love and relationships.

Agree, and this is definetly not a popular opinion nowadays. But you could try having kids. You’ll find the meaning like a fire under the arse

I can't disagree more with this. Absolutely do not bring a living person into this world in a coin flip over whether or not it might mean something to your own fulfilment.

I am a parent, and absolutely love it and find it extremely rewarding, but it's a ton of work and sacrifice. If both me and my wife were not going into it deliberately with the expectation of what it would entail, it would probably end up bad for everyone involved, especially the involuntary participants (our kids).

No one can tell you what it's like to be a parent, but do not become one without being prepared to put them first for a couple of decades.

If you are, then kids are amazing, and have brought us more joy than anything previously. Just be prepared for the cost (not just literally). I have seen plenty of regretful parents, even if never explicitly expressed.

Thank you for writing this. There’s an insidious motivation that you have kids for what they can give you (“solve my meaning problem!”) vs what you can offer them. If you gamble on kids giving you meaning and they don’t, now what?

If you go out searching for meaning, you're not going to find it. "Is this meaning?" you might ask, for every choice or circumstance you face. The answer will always be "no". Because you can analyze anything to death. Poke holes in any situation and find some reason it's not full of "meaning".

Finish a big project at work before the deadline? "Is this meaning?" Obviously no. The big project won't impact the mega-conglomerate's bottom line. And if it did, what's it mean to increase the revenue of your employer by 0.001% YoY? For you, personally, that is. Etc.

Just got married? "Is this meaning?" Again, no. Anyone can get married. Most people do get married. It's incredibly common. You're not special for getting married, yet people spend lavishly on weddings to force some amount of "meaning" on the occasion. The day before your wedding isn't different than the day after. I've been to a dozen weddings and can really only recall the details of maybe two of those.

I've not seen a more miserable group of people than /r/fatFIRE on reddit. They have insane wealth, go to retire, and find their life hollow. The mistake is thinking there is some reward is at the end of the journey. I have $30 million dollars, I've retired, now what? You either fill that hole with giant amounts of crap (new Lambo, fancy house, huge TV) or "experiences" (which really translates into traveling to places where poor people are your temporary servants because of the gross power imbalance wealth has granted you). Or, more work. The real secret to retirement is... maybe don't?

Hayao Miyazaki is still working, and certainly doesn't need to. He also doesn't believe that personal happiness should be a goal (it's a very Western point-of-view), and considers filmmaking to be suffering[1]. And I suppose that's the real reward for having kids. The meaning is the work and the pain. You'll change a child's diaper thousands of times. But you'll also get to see them smile and laugh.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ag7zxdENmas

Really - you haven’t seen a more miserable group on REDDIT than fatfire? Come on.

It seems you’re saying there’s no meaning to life if I understand that text right.

I don’t know about you - but am a regular reader on fatfire fwiw and I do find my life immensely meaningful. I like finding goals, working towards them and possibly achieving them even (sometimes) or refocusing again. I look at the human experience as the meaning. Money definitely allows for varied experiences while I can pawn away the grunt work of living. Take it for what you will!

I think I get your point, and to thread the needle:

If you look for external sources of meaning (big house, cars) are really just looking for validation. You want others to think of you a certain way.

But if you genuinely enjoy cars, and driving/working on them puts you in a flow state, that’s great.

Most people suffer a lack of engagement at work and should retire to work on what they actually enjoy. If Miyazaki enjoys his art (he enjoys it in the average, looking back, glad he did it after all, like exercise) then of course he should continue. A rich, bored retiree is miserable because they realized they were chasing external validation, which is truly hollow, and can now begin the process of doing what is internally meaningful to them.

Asking whether something is meaningful, in your heart of hearts, lets you sidestep decades of chasing the wrong goal.

I suspect our biologically-ingrained make it so kids do give our lives "meaning"... For a while. My offspring will turn 19 in a couple of weeks, and while I still love the fuck out of him -- and probably always will -- he's not the only thing that will give meaning to the rest of my life. (Dunno what is.)

An existential crisis of meaning is a terrible reason to have kids.

Have kids because you wish to raise another human from infant to fully formed adult, and are willing to make the huge sacrifices that requires. Don't have them to try and plug some sort of hole in your life.

If you find something meaningless, you should bring others into it?

https://68.media.tumblr.com/1720120c34db164d142a9537087b1aa1...

This.

Sometimes it's tough, but it's always rewarding.

my two boys are the hardest, most rewarding, and impactful code i ever wrote.

What the point? Exceed your potential. Set goals like becoming rich, climb a mountain, start your company, fail many times if it takes it. Take 6 months off for around the world travel. You said you dont have the drive as before. That’s your choice. Drive is something we can choose and cultivate. If you’re happy the way you are then that’s one thing but I for one am not going to lean on my insignificance when compared to the universe to justify why I don’t do things. If you want it, go for it!

Genuine question: how do you find these goals in the first place?

Do you just randomly put them out there and work for it so you can tick that checkbox?

Take for example starting a company. I had that goal before and today I know that'd take an enormous amount of effort and would take me away from my family and the few hobbies I have. All that doesn't guarantee I can make it, since the majority of companies fail and luck plays a huge factor there.

I could set that as a goal, but is it worth it?

Most people I talk to when we dive into why they set a particular goal for themselves, it comes down to a childhood dream or something set by society. That's why I don't see the point.

Another key aspect you need to consider is that (pseudoscience/hand-waving incoming) your brain is very good at taking all of your prior experience and extrapolating it forward, and telling you "if you do this thing, this will be the outcome".

My point is, you're not considering all of the things you don't know, because you can't. It isn't just about "start a company that will probably fail based on the % of companies that actually succeed". It's about "who will I meet while trying to start the company, that could turn into a life long friend", or "what skills do I know so little about that I'll be required to exercise while starting my company that may blossom into a passion I never knew about", or "what sort of example could I be setting for my kids/family/friends who might be on the fence in regards to taking their own leaps of faith"?

We're all too quick to assume we know the outcome of things, and we too easily forget the crazy, spontaneous circumstances of our youth that grew out into huge parts of our lives; that possibility doesn't go away when you're older, it's just most people tend to stop letting their lives have any risk or slack in them that could introduce those sorts of catalyst events.

I had never really thought about it in that sense. This is a very interesting take that honestly made me a bit emotional.

Thank you for this.

Don't mention it, just glad to help!

I think it happens organically, you start increasing your sphere of influence in some area and with some audience and gradually those goals kind of emerge as natural steps.

> Drive is something we can choose and cultivate

oh really? How one can cultivate drive if she, for example, has had several burnouts from what she used to had a drive for and it was the only thing that ever interested her for whole life? Or if he reached the ‘plateau of sustainability’ and just bored and, again, it was the only activity that kept him from strong suicidal thoughts? There is a possible case when someone just don’t give a shit about nothing through his life, what’s then? Cultivate a drive along with unstoppable thoughts continuously going to your head like ‘There is no point in absolutely anything’. And please, don’t confuse these examples with psychological diseases

> Drive is something we can choose and cultivate.

That sounds like hybris. I am not disagreeing that you can alter it to a degree, but it is certainly not something you choose. Just think about how you feel when you are ill and now think of people with allergies for example, that can always feel ill depending on circumstances.

These limits exist always and they are different from person to person and these limits are not always set by (obvious) illnesses, but by the body in general.

edit: limit => limits

Of course you can be more driven (there is of course a limit but most are far from it). I have done it I used to be content with where I was in life. Made decent money, family, friends and hobbies.

But I decided that I wanted more so I let my hobbies grow a bit and changed employer. Sure I'm not a million miles from where i was but I'm not in the same place.

Once I took the first steps the next got easier and I started to look for more opportunities. Find your first step, it should be small but in the right direction. Ask to take lead on something at work or push yourself in your hobby.

What I think everyone with kids should have as one of their goals is to get them one step up the ladder. Give them a slightly better chance than you had. Most successful people have successful parents, very few start from zero. My parents were middle class but I'm upper middle class.

I’m sure it doesn’t make you feel any better but I’m in the exact, same, boat.

I’ve decided to try to just chill out, and enjoy life as much as I can. Stop striving for crazy goals, and accept life for what it is - a lot of working, sleeping, spending time with family, occasionally traveling.

I do what I need to do to make that enjoyable, and stop worrying about making it better / more money / more prestige / etc. This is counter to the American ethos but I found that focussing on things mostly outside of my reach / luck sphere, was mostly just making me unhappy and rarely moving the needle in wealth or fulfillment. Focus on what you can, and forget the rest. Finding peace with this is easier said than done.

Ultimately, it's up to you to decide the point of it. You are the universe made self-aware, packaged in a meat suit with some primitive impulses that just so happens to be living in the most convenient/low friction environment for those primitive impulses in human history thus far.

Our culture biases towards certain life meanings (get rich! be famous! do high class things! be higher status than others! belong to the cool in-group!), and our primitive impulses are very attracted to those meanings. But as we accomplish those things, they don't end up feeling super meaningful or fulfilling.

We will all be forgotten, the universe doesn't care about our lives. But we are the universe made self-aware! How awesome is this? Yeah, we need to balance a lot of the human concerns because we're embodied in these meat suits that have certain needs. But there's so much to think about/discover/appreciate about it all while we can!

There is no meaning in life except what you make of it.

You can argue those goals are just external influences that got imprinted in you in a period of your life in which you were prone to start dreaming.

Still, why not follow the goals you feel you should pursue?

Do what makes you happy, do what you can look back and say "that was cool", write a book you would read with your life actions.

> Still, why not follow the goals you feel you should pursue?

I think that's the problem I tried to describe: I don't have any.

It seems everyone has goals that they put aside for one reason or another. I achieved the majority of the goals I had, dropped some that made no sense and now there's no path set out anymore. I don't feel I should pursue anything.

> I don't feel I should pursue anything.

Then don’t. I also think it is all meaningless, a blip of order in a system of chaos that “we” exist and “we” are able to think about it.

Play the game, do not play the game, it does not make a difference unless you want to think it makes a difference. I have little kids, and I am not in any pain, so I like playing the game and seeing what I can do to provide for their future security.

Maybe I would not if I was in much worse circumstances, such as super sick or economically disadvantaged.

My advice. Focus on spending time with friends and family and helping others. Advice I'm not very good at taking myself.

Let me add, "spending time with friends" to me means "find a job where I like the people and want the hangout with them" so that I don't have some 8-10hrs a day of something I want to avoid. Those have been the best times in my life where going to work was fun because it was like hanging out with friends. Friends I would see outside of work as well. That work was also on small teams (< 30 people), on small projects where I had a lot of influence, to the point that the project felt like something I was helping to create and had some pride in how it turned out. In other words, not just a cog in a machine.

> I could try to focus on my hobbies, but you realize very quickly that to get good at anything, you need hundreds/thousands of hours

the best time to plant a tree is 20 years ago, the second best time is right now. To continue with the QOTDs: today you're the oldest you've ever been and the youngest you'll ever be, get started.

> I could try to focus on my hobbies, but you realize very quickly that to get good at anything, you need hundreds/thousands of hours.

Be careful. You might regret this, or at least wished you'd done otherwise.

Some years ago I bought a guitar. Worked at it initially - got distracted - and then put it aside. I now realize had I continued to pick it up everyday (or so) for say 20 to 30 mins I'd be able to play well enough by now. Perhaps not Hendrix or Page but enough to enjoy myself :)

What's the point?

The joy you brinb into the world. For yourself, and for others.

Pretty much anything else is overrated.

Funnily enough I got the exact same situation happen.

My wife got me a guitar as either a nice decoration piece or something I could actually use if I wanted to. I never had the opportunity to learn that when I was a kid, so I tried to learn it.

Quickly I realized I'd need to practice at least an hour a day for years before I could play one single song from my favorite band. It just made me quit after a few months.

Worst part is that I knew that when I started. I told myself "I'll practice just a bit and when I'm 50 I'll be good at it".

The problem is that I realized I did not enjoy practicing it every day. Drills, exercises over and over. It seems to me I enjoy the idea of being a person that can play the guitar well, but I don't really enjoy the journey to that.

Sounds like you need to set intermediate goals. When I started playing the guitar, I asked my teacher „Do you think I‘ll be able to play anything from Muse soon?“ He was like „Uhhm maybe, if you practice super hard? But let’s focus on getting this Smoke on the water to sound absolutely sick!“

For a long time, my only goal was to make the finger exercises sound good. Play them with a metronome and push the number higher and higher. Integrate little licks into the practice routine, keeping pace with the metronome. My guitar teacher was _extremely_ motivated and this was contagious.

Before I knew it, I could easily play most pop songs and many rock songs. I didn’t even notice when I became able to play Muse because my interests had shifted by then. I joined a band and stayed with them for 5 years…

(Addendum)

… until I quit because having two little kids doesn’t mix well with a highly motivated band on the side. I guess I also had kind of a music playing burnout because the band was kinda toxic.

Haven’t touched the guitar for two years now, but I‘ll probably pick it up soon again, and learn new songs. Maybe record a reinterpretation of some electronic music I dig. Or make electronic music with guitar elements, like the late Daft Punk or something.

I'd recommend getting a teacher or someone who can plan your drills that forces you to play songs at your level.

I'm no prodigy and could play stuff in a few months (heavy metal), maybe a year. But that's only because I played actual songs along with the drills.

For this reason I don't say I've been playing piano for 40 years. I say I've been failing to practice piano for 40 years (and it shows).

Your story sounds a lot like mine. I earn good enough money at a laid-back employer, and don't have the drive to job-hop or leetcode into a FAANG, or to do some big open-source software project or anything else like that.

I focus on hobbies. What works for me is to keep the hobbies to myself - don't let it become competitive relative to others. That's a trap you'll never win, as you'll always be comparing to the best and not to any kind of average or typical performance.

Here's a number of concrete examples. I like Rubik's cube puzzles, but what I do with them is get new puzzles of different shapes and figure out ways to solve them. I deliberately don't get involved in speed-cubing or such competitions.

I like juggling, but I don't try to do any shows or competitions or anything; what I do is invent and learning new patterns and tricks for myself.

I learned to sew, to make costumes for conventions; but what I do is walk around to interact with and entertain people; I don't try to compete in shows or for prizes or anything.

I play board games, pinball, sports like bowling and ultimate frisbee; but always on a very casual recreational level and not in any kind of organized league or competition. What's important with these isn't the activity itself, it's the human interaction.

You can find a lot of value in hobbies like these in a range of 20 to 200 hours invested rather than 2000. The key is to find self-satisfaction in bettering your own skills; don't try to compare to the self-selected best lifelong obsessives.

This reminds me of a recent book by a blogger-psychiatrist who suggests "you don't really have desires", that is, he argues that we live in a pornographic society because we trade agency for knowledge, that we can only act on desire by pretending we have no choice. Or something. It's more convoluted than I'd agree with but there's something there.

Personally I think desire can be distilled down to basic things, and we just devise abstractions to satisfy them. If it's no longer clear how x or y would bring any satisfaction, then you won't long for it. Or some other desire is in conflict and you need to resolve it. I think we also become more risk-averse when times are generally good/stable, and excuses are a good defense mechanism.

Given the implied restlessness of your question, maybe you need to mull further on what it is you think is lacking. You mentioned career: maybe money isn't the deciding factor as to whether you should advance. You mentioned hobbies: sinking hundreds of hours by habitually sticking to them is what makes something a hobby, so do you like them or not? You mentioned starting a company: what is alluring about this? What does it satisfy?

Maybe it's easier to answer: do you feel stagnant and bored?

Try to love yourself and enjoy some moments while they are there. Your expectations come to quite some part from the society trying to make you function. Don't let them get you down too much. Go outside on a sunny day, stop, look, close your eyes and like something you saw, or just the air you breathe. There are more people that have cheerful moments because you are there than you think right now.

> I could try to progress my career, but I'm already earning good money and I know to earn more I'd have to either start job hopping or study some leetcode to get into a FAANG.

I know this was not the point of your comment, but trust me that one can pass FAANG interviews without grinding Leetcode.

If you're seriously considering a job search, I would recommend going through jobsearch.dev

When people use FAANG in these discussions. Is it literally those five companies and a handful of other high end growth companies (Nvidia, Microsoft, Tesla?)? The number still being single digit. Or is it representing a handful more companies than fhat?

To me it can have a few meanings based on context, which I'm sure everyone has their own interpretation ha.

Sometimes it means "giant influential tech companies" in which case you could make a good case that Netflix doesn't belong and some others could be added.

In a career focused context like this I interpret it as "any tech company where most devs easily earn $300k+". So the original FANG plus a bunch of others, including smaller companies like Uber or Splunk.

Yeah the last paragraph is what I was thinking when I asked.

For sure Netflix doesn’t belong. Meta doesn’t either as of end of 2021 if it’s also about growth alongside influential. Tesla, Nvidia slide in perfectly.

Then there’s a sizable tail end of $100B+ companies and many under $75B with growth potential. AMD, PayPal, Shopify, Stripe, for $100B ones. Square, Atlassian, Datadog, Cloudflare, some cybersecurity firms like Crowdstrike, Okta, would fit in too. These are too small right now though.

FAANG usually refers specifically to those companies. GAFAM is another acronym which exchanges Netflix with Microsoft.

You have to replace with Meta and Alphabet too... MAMAA

Time is relative. In the end, our planet is just a blip in the universe and when the sun goes it will be gone, and the universe will be unchanged, the same as if Earth had never existed...

As far as the point, well, philosophy is fun. Why is there something when there could be nothing? Why does the universe even exist? What's the point of planets? What's the point of life on planets? What's the point of human evolution? Maybe there are no discrete points, aka a continuum, and it's all pointless. Or maybe there are discrete points, indivisible subatomic particles. Or maybe we're all in a simulation?

For some the point is to continue the evolutionary process by breeding and spawning, like the salmon in the rivers do. For others the point is to amass as much wealth and power as possible so that they can be at the top of the human social hierarchy and enjoy alpha monkey status. Some invent supernatural beings and imagine life without end in an afterlife paradise. For others, the point is to push their minds and bodies to their limits by creating art, studying science, exploring the natural world, inventing technologies and so on.

Probably the saddest crowd is those for whom the point of life has become little more than buying the useless garbage the advertisers tell them to buy. It's not healthy for the mind and it's not healthy for the body, and it's leading to environmental catastrophe. Many people are miserable because they can't buy all the products they're told they're supposed to buy in order to acquire the patina of success (the antidote is to adopt an indifferent attitude towards advertising and its psychological manipulation strategies).

A few hobbies are fun even before you’re good. Baking can be a lot of fun… start with super detailed recipes and pay attention to the details. Eventually you learn to improvise and pick up little bits and pieces of how the ingredients work together.

Running/exercise is one with so many levels you can only truly compete with yourself to improve (and you’ll feel good).

Music is one that is sooo difficult. You suck for a long time, but can make incremental improvements.

Weightlifting has been one of the most satisfying pursuits I took up as an "adult". Progress is so quantifiable (the numbers go up). And the side benefits of greater fitness, physique, and general mental wellness are amazing.

The work itself isn't easy (it can be incredibly tough!), but it's also not complex. You just go to the gym and put in the work and you will make progress.

(I don't mean to say that it's simple exactly, there are plenty of places to make mistakes and get analysis paralysis, but progress can be made with extremely simple programming. Pick something battle tested and do the work and you almost can't go wrong.)

Enjoy life while you're here. Smoke weed. Have sex. Take a vacation. Listen to music. Go scuba diving. Write a book. None of it matters anyway.

I felt the same as you for several years in my mid 20s and drank a lot/did a lot of drugs to cope with it.

I came out of that haze realizing that the point of it, at least for me, is to spend time doing things I enjoy and spend time with people I love.

Making a mark on the world? Not my main focus. Making the lives of the people I care about better? Very important.

No kids, huh?

Having kids is the last straw that breaks your dreams. By that point you’ve committed to the parent lifestyle and your life as it has been is over. You now spend the rest of your days providing for your family and viewing everything through the lens of a parent.

My children are now over the age of ten. I find myself in a great place to start doing other things. I can do much more in the evenings, as long as I'm available for their taxi service. And me being out of the house has little to no impact on my wife.

The thing about having kids is that it's increased my drive. I had a few years where I failed to do things in the little time I had, so learned to push myself to do them. That's still there, in addition to having more free time.

So it's great! It only took...ooh...fifteen years?

This doesn't have to be true, though it is for many.

If you can find a version of your dreams that pays the rent and puts food on the table, you can still chase them.

Your financial metabolism does go up though, and the total universe of options shrinks. Ramen profitable doesn't mean actual ramen when you've got a spouse and kids.

I found that I've gotten much further in pursuing my dreams after having kids than before. Maybe it's just coincidence, but I feel a lot of the skills I had to learn to be the kind of parent I wanted to be translated almost 1 for 1 to improving my business outcomes.

> I feel a lot of the skills I had to learn to be the kind of parent I wanted to be translated almost 1 for 1 to improving my business outcomes.

This 1000%. I would say the same applies to learning how to be the spouse I wanted to be.

It does limit your options, but also helps you focus and teaches you to be patient and less self centered. It opens your eyes to a world that’s hard to otherwise appreciate. It’s not a panacea of meaning but for me, i’ve found myself able to achieve more growth now (two kids) because it’s forced me to confront and attack the thing that was holding me back: lack of focus and most importantly being very selective in what i choose to do.

Hard disagree.

I wasted a lot of time before kids.

All of the things I’m most proud of I’ve done since having kids.

Second this. I kicked about and achieved hardly anything before I had children.

+1. Having children causes one to be deeply, intimately invested in the future. “What kind of future shall we leave our children?” is just an abstract ideal to one who does not have children.

It's funny you say that today, I was just thinking about it. Family provides a ton of emotional cushion, perspective, and motivation. They're a lot of work, but also a lot of fun. It's far easier to motivate yourself into working hard for them than your own material desires. And you don't lose your dreams to them in the process, they become part of them.

I had my forth child 15 years after my other three, when I was well into my mid-30's.

I find that appreciate/savour/lament his growing much more than I did my others. Maybe this is because I am an older dad or maybe because I have grown 3 children already and I can appreciate how quickly those years pass.

Maybe that's true.

It's certainly true that many parents spend 8 hours a day _not_ looking after their kids, but working on something. We have an enormous power of choice in what we work on, so choose something meaningful and your life will "not be over".

What a depression notion.

My wife and I moved to the other side of the planet with four children, travelled all over the world, and so on, because we prioritized it.

(GP) I actually have a 21 year old. When I married he was 7, so I probably lost the craziness of the early years. However I raised him as my son the best way I could.

I don't particularly like the idea of having more kids though. Put them on this world?

Ugh... I know, I'm a bit too pessimistic

I think for the average person, having kids might be the best way to have a positive impact on the world. Something like selling a company sounds like a bigger deal, but in 10, 30, 50 years, what will it matter? Some money is exchanged and some customers have some need fulfilled for the moment. Having kids and doing your best to teach them to be happy, empathetic, thoughtful, etc. can have an impact for generations.

If that’s how a person without kids feels, isn’t having kids just creating another person who has to have kids to find meaning in their life (and on and on and on)?

With the certainty of climate change, it feels like adoption is the only moral/ethical way to do this.

Going to strongly push back on adoption being morally or ethically superior to having children the ole’ fashioned way because of climate change. I don’t see this as a productive train of thought and more likely solutions for climate change exist elsewhere.

It’s ok to have kids. Adopting kids is nice and that’s ok too.

> more likely solutions for climate change exist elsewhere.

Anybody who's having kids today sure better hope so.

It’s a very pessimistic worldview. While it’s true that they are great filter ahead of us I think climate change is not the biggest concern.

Look into Tony Seba to see how fast the transition to RE is happening.

We could also geoengineering the climate if it become a real problem.

> If that’s how a person without kids feels, isn’t having kids just creating another person who has to have kids to find meaning in their life (and on and on and on)?

OK, so the meaning of our lives is to perpetuate the species. Not too bad; if it's good enough for (the other) animals, why not for us too?

Ya want anything beyond that, it would logically have to be to make mankind of the future a better species than right now. Which of course you do by making your kids better persons than you are. So then you're back to them again.

> if it's good enough for (the other) animals, why not for us too?

My cat drinks from the toilet.

It's water. I drink water too. I didn't lick my kid clean when he was a baby either, but on the level of having him in the first place your cat and I -- and you -- have more in common than not.

Yeah except as people we have options for how to respond to our needs and instincts.

We can open a bottle of Evian instead of drinking from the toilet. We can cook an Impossible Burger instead of stalking, hunting, and devouring a cardinal in the front yard. We can run a bath instead of licking ourselves. We can realize having kids is a terrible choice given what we know about the world and choose to not have them.

There are some things you can have an impact on. Why not try being a really good person and not an asshole. Nothing matters in the world anyway, you won't get anything by being mean to anyone.

You can try to have good memories with your family and friends. Sure, everyone will be gone after a few years and nobody will ever remember you. But you are here now, might as well have fun.

I have had a pretty good life all along, but it was blips, and spits and starts. And stumbles all along. I just rode through them.

I had the advantage of having no vision, no plans, when I graduated high school. All my friends headed off to college, but I had no money, had no idea what I would even study, even though I scored just shy of 1500 on the SAT. Learning always came easy for me, it still does.

So having no plan, after high school, I left my job as a farm hand and became a motorcycle mechanic. Found my two major strengths there, thinking through abstract problems as logically as possible, and a certain base understanding of electrical and electronics. A result of that was I got stuck with all the quirky electrical faults, and most of the transmission work. I enjoyed both. Should I go to school for electical or mechanical engineering? EE won that decision process, and I headed off to school at 25. Not having much money, I settled on two years first, to nail down an Associates degree, then move on from there.

Got great grades, got a great job offer, went to work. Took additional courses, but never earned a higher degree. Blundered along through a few failed relationships (an early relationship with someone that was bad for me, left scars, and it took a while to figure out how relationships were supposed to work).

Finally met someone I could relate to at age 35. Okay? 35. I still was renting. I couldn't even afford my own apartment until I was 30. So at 35 I met the love of my life. A year later, we bought a house together. Two years later we married. Two years after that, we had our first kid. Age 40 for me.

So my 30s, my life had really only just begun.

So I have been coding in embedded systems now for 38 years. My kids are all grown and out of the house. I never worked at a FAANG. I am not rich, but the women I met, fell in love with, and married, had similar financial goals, so we have saved enough money to retire by time I turn 68. Very small house, we drive cars into the ground (never less than twelve years, my car is now 16 years old). So we have money to do the things we want. Travel and skiing being two of the top things. We raised three kids. Put them through college with no debt (not Ivy league, but no one needs Ivy League for the first four years, that is some heavy vanity BS right there)

Your career is not the end point of your Dreams, enjoyment is. Your hobbies should be something you enjoy that don't break the bank. You should constrain your costs on anything the doesn't deeply matter to you so that you can afford the things that do.

I will leave you with one huge final important note.

The things you 'do' in life are much more important than the things you have. Do not focus on 'having'. Focus on 'doing'.

I am a relatively old man now. I am still working because of two things, both related to me doing everything late in life. I started my career late, and I had kids late. I don't mind that I am going to work until I am 68 or maybe 70 years old. I am doing things, and I am enjoying the things I do.

Thank you for sharing. Beautifully said.

life coach here. your feeling is valid and there is no 'answer'. It sounds like you believe you have to actually do something in order to have a point

this feeling demands deep personal reflection and / or extended authentic conversation with someone who knows you well -- nothing a text forum will be able to give you so do not be discouraged if you read a hundred posts of advice and none of them do anything for you.

If you want to explore more of the philosophy of this kind of feeling then I have a recommendation. There is a popular podcast called "Philosophize This!" by Stephen West that actually went into a multi-episode dive on "The Creation of Meaning" recently. It starts on Episode 157. The podcast is a casual conversation-style lecture format. The first episode is 25 minutes long.

>Yet we focus on these artificial goals set by childish dreams, society or life events.

In my experience goals are used to resolve unmet needs. Children are very needy and have lots of goals. If you need more money, you set a goal to get it.

Is it possible that you have no goals and see no point in anything you do because you have nowhere to go but down? You are safe. You are fed. You did it. Maybe it is time to kick your feet up and enjoy.

> Is it possible that you have no goals and see no point in anything you do because you have nowhere to go but down? You are safe. You are fed. You did it. Maybe it is time to kick your feet up and enjoy.

I think that's quite possible. In my view to go up now the cost is very high, either energy-wise or time-wise, with little benefit. As an example I could get more money but not enough to retire in the short term (unless I'm extremely lucky).

Looking at expectations put on me from where I came from, I'm light years ahead, so I should be feeling like "I made it", but I don't.

> Maybe it is time to kick your feet up and enjoy.

Haha, I have to find a way to enjoy it somehow. Unfortunately I have this crippling feeling of not doing enough that seems to drain away enjoyment of the moment.

Thanks for the reference, I'll make sure to check it out

>expectations put on me from where I came from

>I have this crippling feeling of not doing enough

These two things are not unusual to find in the same person, and a talk therapist can probably help with the details.

Tbh, I had a similar thing. What I resolved in therapy was recognizing that the feeling was a mental shortcut; a mechanism / engine running under the hood indiscriminately. It wasn't wrong, but it was incomplete.

In response, I expanded the wiring a bit. I now feel it as "there is always more I could do" which basically wired my choice into the mix. Then I exercise that choice. "There is more I can do, but this is enough". the part for me that is hard to put into words is that "enough" is a soft line. doing enough doesnt mean i need to stop doing.

I say that last line there bc there was, for me, a related feeling of "Everything I do must be efficient" bc that gets more done and i can never do enough. This needed to be dismantled / rewired as well

Taken together, "never do enough" and "always be efficient" created an impasse where doing more than enough was inefficient. And I could not view my life as being enough without self-implying that it should end. Being busy justified my existence, and if i could not justify being busy then i could not justify myself. Obviously this is not a rational conclusion, but that's why therapy helps. I did not realize this kind of irrationality was emergent from my subconscious heuristics until the right line of conversation bubbled it to the surface. I said the words and realized the issue at the same time. Once I noticed it, I could of course handle the work of correcting it on my own time.

> Yet we focus on these artificial goals set by childish dreams, society or life events.

I think this is your problem: you see artificial goals as a bad thing.

Research suggests that happiness is most strongly correlated with having close personal relationships (aka family and friends, etc.).

https://thriveglobal.com/stories/relationships-happiness-wel...

> moving to another country, getting married, becoming a programmer to make games, have my own company and get rich

I still dream of those things, except getting married. TBH 30s isn't that late - things get far more difficult if/when you have kids.

If you aren't feeling motivated to add structure to plans, this helped me https://waitbutwhy.com/2014/05/life-weeks.html

Focus on who's going to show up to your funeral and what they'll be thinking about you. That's what matters anyways, far more than your hobbies or career.

I learned at a relatively young age some of these realizations. And realized the biggest thing is WHO you have in your life. Family, children etc. That we arent ancient egyptions and things like cars and boats dont come with us in the afterlife (figuratively). And that a company will cut you as soon as it benefits them and is expediant, that no one is going to write "he was a good worker" on my gravestone. It does seem many have had that realization in the last 2 years, but I had it in my early 20's when my father passed relatively young.

And so over the years i have moved up, realized some goals. Manage a department, lead a team or two, still get to work in weeds etc, but have direct influence on budget, organizational decisions etc (at least to this point). And i make a solid salary and frankly the I could do much of this in a much more efficient fashion, and many of my decisions these days are more based in "am I setting a good example".

That said, it can still be hard to maintain that focus. During this "great resignation" i have faced an internal battle with the realization i CAN earn more, but whether that will come as a cost of being sacrificial to the other ancillary benefits..

Frankly it can be hard to rectify and sometimes i feel my spouse takes advantage of it. For example its known (at least internally) that family trumps work in almost every instance. That I will not miss my kids...halloween, gradauation, whatever for some on call BS. But that has come to also mean that I get leaned on when a kid is sick, or theres some scheduling thing. And sure i can make it work. Heck I can probably even get away with it without much political cost, but that's sometimes not the point.

I also fight with considering offers or "advice" that i should jump ship and move to xyz. I could double salary etc. But does that mean i double benefits if i pay more for insurance or get less days off or am expected to be plugged in or more responsive?

Finally, I still have that internal drive. Lately i constantly find myself still trying to map out the next "steps". Do I move further into management? Its not as rewarding for me but the people I have managed seem to have established a pattern of loyalty and trust despite the environment. And the possibility of again having more "freedom" and the ability to drive organization direction and choices would be really nice. I'm in a spot where i have some say, and even some influence, but would more be better? How do i get there, or recognize an open door or oppurtunity.

Frankly i find much of it exhausting, just like i have come to find people and politics pretty exhausting lately.

Life is a musical thing, per Alan Watts:

https://youtu.be/ERbvKrH-GC4

Only one answer is needed : do you enjoy the ride ?

Have you ever read the book of Ecclesiastes?

Being a solid adult member of your community has lots of value. Think "It's a Wonderful Life".

In a Lex Fridman podcast with Stephen Wolfram, Fridman observes that in some ways Wolfram and Elon Musk are alike. Wolfram agrees. The similarity is what Wolfram calls "Optimism" - a strong belief that not only can they accomplish great things but that they can do so relatively quickly. This is Elon Musk saying self-driving cars are going to happen by the end of the year, or Wolfram saying he's discovering the unified theory of everything.

The idea they touch on in the podcast is that this optimism helps people do great things. If you realized the thing you want is decades away, you might not even try. If you (incorrectly) think you are on the cusp of achieving some monumental goal then you may strive for it and, throughout those decades, you may keep believing you are on the cusp and keep striving until you finally reach your goal.

This is connected to the idea of "Depressive realism" - which is the idea that depressed people are often more realistic about the world. Perhaps, to be productive, it helps to have a somewhat delusional belief or confidence in your own abilities.

The question you should be asking yourself is: do I want to have good/exceptional/fantastic fun? If the answer is "meh", "whatever", "I guess", you will inevitably be miserable.

I was reading Vaclav Smil's latest book and he does all these calculations about how much energy we have available to us now compared to 200 years ago. And how much less physical labor we have to do to put food on the table and how many more material goods we have available to us now - in my grandparents' day, about 80 years ago, they had maybe one pair of pants sewn together, one shirt that was washed once every two weeks, shoes had holes in them, of course.

Their job was picking tomatoes. Were they living a worse life than the one I had the opportunity to experience? Certainly yes, from a material point of view. From the point of view of internal feelings, the individual variability in life satisfaction within a cohort is greater than the variability in average life satisfaction between cohorts of different generations. They lived their lives, comparing themselves to people living in the same neighborhood, certainly not to people living in generations yet to come.

In the immortal words of Lorenzo de Medici: "Whoever wants to be happy, let him be so! Because of tomorrow there is no certainty". And sometimes, let me add, there is no certainty of this afternoon either.

Let's say you live in the modern Western world, which is more familiar to me. Modern life has endless opportunities for fun, which includes, for some, finding that meaning of life that is so hard to grasp. You can dump your partner, in case you get tired of them, and people would understand - a hundred years ago, such alleged selfishness would have been tolerated at best. Maybe it is the answer, how many I have seen spending decades of the one and only life they will ever have with significant others they barely tolerate, when not hate. You have access to an unlimited number of learning opportunities. We know that agency is supremely important for life satisfaction. You can learn to draw, write, do martial arts, sing, write a screenplay, cook delicious seafood. Assuming you have some disposable income, you can take a flight to some places that until a few decades ago had no sign of civilization. Can you imagine? You can be hypnotized, take some psychedelics, eat and drink as much as you want. Find something new in you and outside of you.

What is the point of it all, you may ask. I can only answer that I haven't become rich or world famous, I don't have world-class skills, but in the fifth decade of my life, I'm having a great time living an exciting life - because I do things that excite me -, which includes some overall minor contribution to society (I don't fool myself thinking I am giving a larger than negligible contribution to society), and which I enjoy sharing with others, but only if they have the right attitude. And for me, that's the point of it all.

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