Comment by ibejoeb | Hacker News Reader

Comment by ibejoeb | Hacker News Reader

Parent Full thread

>if your service allows people to jointly apply for something, you might need to refer to both the user and the person they’re applying with. In these cases, use the person’s name, ‘they’ or ‘their’.

This is incorrect. We are talking about government services. Language needs to be precise. There are cases where there is a difference between an individual, a couple, and a group of 3 or more. There is also a very tricky case for non-native speakers and those that are not aware of the culture from which these nuances arise.

The guidance must direct the implementors to use specific language. If confronting a situation in which a pronoun gives rise to ambiguity, do not use a pronoun. So, "if your service allows people to jointly apply for something," define it. Is it "your service allows two people to jointly apply," or "your service allows a group of people to apply," or something else? Using "they" is inappropriate. Something like "you and the other individual" is appropriate.

It is not incorrect. Singular they is a perfectly legitimate construction and there's nothing ungrammatical about it. Additionally, if a substantial portion of the population of speakers uses a certain word or construction, then it's no less legitimate than any other. That's how language has always worked, it's defined by usage. What you're calling 'precise language' is language without ambiguities, which simply doesn't exist. Ambiguity is an inevitable part of natural language. You're suggesting that non-native speakers might struggle with it, but as a non-native speaker I can assure you that a pronoun with different meanings depending on context, such as 'they' is an absolute non-issue compared to all the other quirks that natural languages like English have on offer, and always have had.

How do you conjugate "to do" in the third-person singular?

Same way you conjugated it in the second-person singular.

He/she/it does

I/you/they do

I think you misread that paragraph. It refers to situations like this: "You selected that you want to jointly apply with another individual. Do *they* live in the same household as you?" Yes, you could also write out "the other individual" every time. The guideline doesn't prevent that. But it says not to use "he" or "she" (or "he/she") to refer to the other individual.

I didn't misread. I like your example. "You selected that you want to jointly apply with another individual." The other person is, grammatically, the third person singular. "Do they" does not agree. The correct form with a pronoun is "Does [3sg]." But we can avoid using a pronoun simply by using the noun.

"Does the other person" is correct, accurately describes the scenario, and is comprehensible at essential English reading levels, which is incredibly important.

'They' is a third person singular pronoun. It has been in use to denote an singular individual of unknown gender for hundreds of years (since ~14th century).

"With an antecedent referring to an individual generically or indefinitely (e.g. someone, a person, the student), used esp. so as to make a general reference to such an individual without specifying gender"[0]

"Often used in reference to a singular noun made universal by every, any, no, etc., or applicable to one of either sex (= ‘he or she’)."[1]

[0] - https://www.oed.com/view/Entry/200700 - current OED entry

[1] - https://www.oed.com/oed2/00251026 - 2nd edition OED entry from 1989

Funny how people who get wound up about singular 'they' don't have the same issues with singular 'you'.

I would have exactly the same problem. When it is ambiguous, it needs to be clarified. It's easy to write it with clarity. What's the argument for not writing for clarity? This is the fourth time I'm asking, and yet none of the dispassionate, logical people here are willing to address it.

Singular "they" is pretty widely accepted today. Nothing wrong about it. "You" can also be singular or plural.

> Is “they” singular or plural? The answer is both. As of 2019, most big style guides—including the Associated Press, the Chicago Manual of Style, the MLA style manual, and the APA style manual—accept the usage of the singular they. [0]

[0] https://www.grammarly.com/blog/use-the-singular-they/

I agree with you for the purposes of colloquial speech. However, this is formal, and the formality serves a specific purpose.

Somewhat tangentially, we're talking about UK services, and you're citing American style guides. The major British style guides advise against singular "they."

Since we're talking about usability and accessibility, I'm going hammer on the point that this needs to be accessible at baseline reading comprehension levels. Singular "they" is generally not taught either in primary or ESL environments. If it does become part of standard education, we still have generations of people who have not experienced it.

"They" uses the plural verb form in pretty much all situations, even if it only refers to a single person. This should be pretty intuitive to most native English speakers - saying "they is cold" is clearly unnatural, but "they are cold" works.

There is an exception for "themselves" - there is some usage of the word "themself" ("they did that themself") but it's fairly uncommon, and most people seem to stick to "themselves" even for a single individual.

It's worth noting that grammar isn't always so concerned with the logic of a situation. For example, German has grammatical gender that, for people at least, matches the gender of the person in question - a male nurse uses masculine articles, a female nurse uses feminine ones. However, a girl (Mädchen) is addressed using neutral articles because the linguistic rule ("-chen" is neuter) overrides the logical rule (female people use female articles).

Finally, it's worth pointing out that, even from a prescriptive perspective, most bodies encourage (or at least allow) the use of the singular they (with plural verb forms).

> "They" uses the plural verb form in pretty much all situations, even if it only refers to a single person.

This is the problem. I'd like to remind everyone that the context is the usability of a government services website.

> This should be pretty intuitive to most native English speakers

How about non-native speakers?

> most bodies encourage (or at least allow) the use of the singular they

The British style guides advise against it.

I'd ask everyone, rather than repeatedly reminding me that in casual speech we can use different constructions, what is the benefit of using this particular construction in a formal context wherein comprehension is paramount?

What British style guides? The BBC doesn't mention it (and indeed uses it in their style guide). I don't have the full Oxford style guide, but the online version I've found uses singular they. It's obviously not British specifically, but interesting from the perspective of non-native speakers: the EU style guide also recommends using singular they (and again uses it in their style guide). The GDS is obviously pro singular they!

So I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that British style guides do not support this construction.

I don't think there's a particular benefit to using it, other than that it is a very common and suddenly understood form of English, and in many cases easier to understand than an equivalent, but more complex construction. You talk about using it in a formal context, which to a certain extent this is, but more than that it is important for Government websites to be widely understood - if the Government adopts a register that is too far removed from common English, then they will not be as easily understood. Given that there is no apparent confusion with singular they in conventional speech (and given that, in cases where it is ambiguous, it is possible to find alternative sentence constructions), it seems pointless not to use it.

Given the amount of user research that is done on the guidance that is added to the design system, I would imagine they've tested it with users and found it works.

It also fits in with their style guide, which talks about writing in a conversational style, https://www.gov.uk/guidance/content-design/writing-for-gov-u...

That's not a foregone conclusion. It's an active discussion on their github issue.

Yes, their style guide says to use singular "they," and that's what I'm criticizing. Aside from this particular carve-out, it doesn't really align with their style guide, which offers this advise:

* "To keep content understandable, concise and relevant, it should be incisive (friendliness can lead to a lack of precision and unnecessary words)"

* "You should not let caveats dictate unwieldy grammar"

It's perplexing that so many are insisting on creating a problem. There is a perfect solution that affords gender neutrality and incisive language. Why not use it?

Singular they is perfectly reasonable in British English. As others have said it is ancient, and modern. It is more of a purcularity that the singluar they ever became unfashionable.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com