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Comment by YATA0 | Hacker News Reader

>There isn't a will among state government to tear up the houses to replace all the pipes.

Nor is there money to fund such a project.

Sorry to sound cynical but it's a question of priorities. Michigan just gave General Motors $2 billion to build two EV battery plants, one in Lansing and the other in Detroit which will create 3,000 jobs.

The billions are coming from Federal COVID money. The state caused Flint's problem by discontinuing water from Detroit and pulling from a local river without adding a required chemical.

This decision was made by an emergency manager appointed by the then governor to save money. This manager took power away from the elected mayor and city council.

I can't believe paying 750 000$ for a job is ever considered a good idea. If your goal really is only to provide jobs you might as well start a public works program instead of shoveling money to the private sector.

If it is a one-time sum, it may actually make economic sense over some reasonable time period. Consider:

1 industrial job may lead to : - 1-2 jobs in private services in the same area - 1-2 jobs in public services in the same area - industrial activity that can be taxed later - in the case of electric batteries, there may even be some environmental benefits that have value - once the facility is located to some location, it may be expected to grow over time, creating even more jobs and taxable corporate profits

In other words, each direct job can easily be around 4 jobs total. Future taxes from 4 jobs + corporate profits (and other taxes) + expected growth + the value environmental benefits may very well be worth the $750 up front investment.

Public works projects do all of that.

Also, there are not going to be environmental benefits, the only difference is that the batteries would be getting built somewhere else.

Who is going to pay you lobbying money if you do that? Much better to pay 750k and get 10k back as campaign contributions.

Sorry to sound cynical but it's a question of funding. Flint city council (Democrats) almost unanimously voted to switch the water source to the Flint River to cut costs because they did not have funding for a renegotiated contract with the original water source. The city was effectively bankrupt.

>Michigan just gave General Motors $2 billion to build two EV battery plants, one in Lansing and the other in Detroit which will create 3,000 jobs.

This is fake news, Michigan state did not give money out to GM.

>The state caused Flint's problem by discontinuing water from Detroit and pulling from a local river without adding a required chemical.

>This decision was made by an emergency manager appointed by the then governor to save money.

Voted almost unanimously by the city council. Everyone loves to leave that detail out.

>This is fake news, Michigan state did not give money out to GM.

Yes, seems like its just $666Mil (such an odd number lol)[1].

[1] https://www.mlive.com/public-interest/2022/03/michigan-lawma...

The United States is still the richest country in the world. There is plenty of money, they just don't want to give it to people because capitalism.

It's ironic as well given how they spend a trillion in the military which seems like an unprofitable investment. They coax kids into joining the army to get or pay for an education, instead of the much cheaper and more profitable option, just pay the kids' education directly.

>There is plenty of money, they just don't want to give it to people because capitalism.

Capitalism is the best system ever invented to get money into the hands of people. It's done more to take people out of poverty than any other system in human existence. Capitalism isn't to blame here.

>It's ironic as well given how they spend a trillion in the military which seems like an unprofitable investment.

Military is federal, Flint water is municipal. This is basic civics. The military is not designed to be a profitable investment.

>They coax kids into joining the army to get or pay for an education, instead of the much cheaper and more profitable option, just pay the kids' education directly.

They do both, federal government backs student loans, grants, etc. that literally pay for kids' education directly. And again, most education is State, not federal.

> Capitalism is the best system ever invented to get money into the hands of people.

I would like some citation for this one. Pretty large claim. For example China brought out 2/3rds of their population from poverty to middle class, pretty large number. Now there can be a debate on whether Chinese system is communism or not, but it definitely is not capitalism the way people in US like to define it.

>I would like some citation for this one. Pretty large claim. For example China brought out 2/3rds of their population from poverty to middle class, pretty large number.

Yes... Thanks to capitalism. Communismn killed tens of millions in China when they attempted to reconstruct the country from an agrarian economy into a communist society through the formation of people's communes.

>Now there can be a debate on whether Chinese system is communism or not,

There is no debate. There are billionaire capitalists in China.

>but it definitely is not capitalism the way people in US like to define it.

It is 100% the way people in the US define capitalism. Sure it has it's Chinese spin, but it is undoubtedly capitalism.

I would think technology did far more work pulling people out of poverty than capitalism. And capitalism is only like 250 years old. You could have made your same argument 500-1000 years ago about feudalism pulling people out of poverty, and yet I doubt anybody would be all that happy to switch to a feudalist system and would heavily criticize any claims that feudalism was the main driving factor behind improvements in technology and living standards.

>I would think technology did far more work pulling people out of poverty

Thanks to capitalism!

>And capitalism is only like 250 years old.

And the rate of humanity leaving poverty in that time span is greater than any other time in history.

>You could have made your same argument 500-1000 years ago about feudalism pulling people out of poverty

Err, no? If anything, that pushed even MORE people into poverty. No one sane would ever make that argument.

>yet I doubt anybody would be all that happy to switch to a feudalist system and would heavily criticize any claims that feudalism was the main driving factor behind improvements in technology and living standards.

Because you're inventing a fictional strawman. Feudalism did the opposite of your claim.

It seems like you think all of history was complete garbage for people until the last 200 years and neither technology nor living standards ever improved until then. Serfs worked an average of 40 or less hours per week. The luddites came about because capitalism made their lives worse instead of better. How much of our world is now polluted with heavy metals and toxic chemicals because of unfettered growth at all costs? Capitalism didn't give people public schooling or public infrastructure, and most important technological breakthroughs have come from the military, university grants, and government programs. Without those, capitalism wouldn't have managed jack. You can look at all the areas of the world with little to no government interference within business or economic matters. They haven't sprung to the forefront of technology and living standards because of free enterprise, in many of those places their lives have gotten worse. Russia was industrialized under a communist model, and no matter what flaws the corruption and struggles from within their government brought, the fact that they went from subsidence peasant farms to an industrial power in less than a generation is proof that capitalism isn't the only way forward nor the source of all economic gains.

You realize the US is the richest country because of capitalism?

And other countries that do give out money are capitalistic?

Richest country in the world, and yet life spans have been stagnant and recently been dropping, infrastructure has been crumbling, and American lives have become completely dependent on abusive labor practices and dirty industry of foreign countries to keep the bottom of their economy from collapsing.

I mean a lot of countries have seen reduced lifespans due to Covid. Not sure why you’d call out the US or blame capitalism.

US life expectancy started dropping before covid though.

And? The countries with the highest lifespans are capitalist.

That doesn't explain Cuba, China, Malaysia, and other countries with huge amounts of state controlled enterprise.

China and Malaysia are capitalist, and none of those aforementioned countries are in the top 25 for life expectancy. China isn't even in the top 50, and Cuba is ranked below the US. Swing and a miss.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_ex...

US gained a lot of world power after WW2 when other western countries were rebuilding. Do we know for certain it because of capitalism and not that US had lots of virgin resources to exploit in relative isolation while the other powers rebuilt.

I mean what economic system do you think Western Europe has?

Hint, it’s capitalism. High tax rates to pay for social programs but it’s still capitalism.

All the major powers are capatilistic now. There is a spectrum but it is capitalism. In some governments will push their weight around to get what they want but it's still capitalism

A good portion of that wealth came from stealing good land and forcing people to work as slaves.

Not the most capitalistic wealth creation

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